Fallout 4 - a major Synth plothole question

[darkus37]

First, a short prologue: this is not about bashing Fallout 4. Whether a person likes or dislikes a game is up to them (I personally didn't like Fallout 4), but that's not the point of this thread. Rather, I was thinking about how I could have "fixed" the game and I keep coming up with a roadblock, a question that bugged me the whole time I played through Fallout 4 - besides the targeted replacements, what was the point of having almost completely human robots (Generation 3's)?

 

Now obviously this isn't the first time humanoid robots have been seen in fiction but there was more or less a reason for having humanoid looking robots. In the Terminator series, the only ones covered with flesh were those sent in to infiltrate the past or human bunkers so it makes sense in that regard. In the Blade Runner series (books and movies), it was a bit more vague about why they were covered in flesh, but the series was more about the fine line between being human and machine - bringing up a philosophical question if you will. So what was the point of all the Generation 3's being indistinguishable from humans and having human personalities when the act wasn't called for?

 

I bring up that last point because the Institute seems to have created a humanoid slave race for no other reason than to have a slave race that knows it is enslaved. For example: why show fear when confronted by a Courser if they used a terminal without permission? What possible reason would a janitor robot need to show fear at all? Why have flesh covering their bodies when it is easily damaged and hard to heal? Wouldn't it make more for them to be covered in armor, i.e. like the assaultrons?

 

I'm sincerely puzzled by this seeming oversight on behalf of the Fallout 4 writers. Besides a "because the plot needed it", was there some explanation I missed or something someone can come up with to explain this?

 

Edit: Damnation - I posted this in the wrong thread, can this please be moved to the Fallout 4 Spoilers sections? Thanks very much!

Edited April 10, 2016 by darkus37

[robhartman9]

I think the motivation behind the institute creating artificial people is the lack of children. There are a few scattered hints that leave the impression humanity is doomed to fade away due to shrinking growth rate of population. The last best hope for humanity is based on that theory. Killing off the survivors and replacing them does not sound like the correct solution to me. Sound the evac alarm and leave a smoking crater in the place of that logic

[CyrusAmell]

I think the motivation behind the institute creating artificial people is the lack of children. There are a few scattered hints that leave the impression humanity is doomed to fade away due to shrinking growth rate of population. The last best hope for humanity is based on that theory. Killing off the survivors and replacing them does not sound like the correct solution to me. Sound the evac alarm and leave a smoking crater in the place of that logic

 

I don't think it's quite so grand or conspiratorial. There are children and humans have shown steady population growths in the years since the bombs fell. It's just that these population growths are kept in check by the dangers of the Wasteland and access to resources. The NCR is rumored to control territory with as many as 700,000 people within its borders.

 

As for the original topic, a few things may have prompted the creation of the Gen 3 Synths and would certainly serve to fill the plothole.

1. Gen 3 Synths are more than just robots, they represent the first actual synthetic organisms in the Fallout universe. This not only showed this feat to be possible but also allows for branching projects as was seen with the synthetic gorillas. This is all just the tip of the iceberg of what synthetic technology could be used for.

2. The Institute expands only through excavations that extend their facilities further underground. This involves constant construction in cramped quarters which regular robots are not suited for. To keep pace with their needs the Institute either had to keep diverting valuable scientists from research to get their hands dirty or import a large number of human laborers (willing or not) at great cost to resources. The Gen 3 synths are the perfect workforce because they don’t need to eat or sleep, they are as capable as regular laborers (if not more), they don't catch diseases (great for cramped quarters), and the Institute can produce them as needed almost instantly. Another bonus to Gen 3 is that they make good test subjects in certain situations (highly unethical situations). The Gen 3 also have the bonus of being more well-put-together as Allie Fillmore herself complained of the older model synths requiring more maintenance (which means wasted time and resources).

 

3. The Institute, for some off reason, prefers to send synths to the surface for salvage operations or spying. Especially for spying the Gen 3 synths really had to be spot on. A man or woman can be forgiven for not being fertile but they had to be like normal people when it came to every situation. That includes things like eating, bleeding, growing hair, having emotions, having sex and etc.

In addition, unlike the Enclave, which prided itself on developing a hardened military force, the Institute seems to have striven to reach a point where it scientists can focus on their research whilst maintaining their isolation and self-sufficiency. They created synths so they themselves did not have to do manual labor or fight. As for why the Gen 3 who were only used for construction had to be to be human-like I suppose the Institute likes to roll their needs into a single project. While the Gen 2 Synths would have been less controversial to use, they are still not as efficient as near-human workers.

So in the end, the Institute created a sentient race to do all the work they didn't want to do just so they didn't have to get their hands dirty. Humans were a perfect starting point because as Father said they were already proven to be perfect machines: "walking, talking, fully articulate and capable of anything." Mind you, when they started the project they themselves may not have considered the possibility that their creations would become fully sentient and develop free will. To most, the Gen 3 represent an upgrade to the Gen 2 and that is good enough for them.

Edited April 10, 2016 by CyrusAmell

[darkus37]

@CyrusAmell

 

1. I'm not really seeing what other use synthetic bodies can be used for other than eventual consciousness transferal from a dying body into a new healthy body - other than that, what's the point?

 

2. OK, I'm not really sure how needing to feed and allow rest in laborers is a good idea, but let's put that aside for the moment. The typical Generation 3 is nearly indistinguishable from a common human - bones break, joints get torn, limbs are crushed... on a protectron I imagine an hour tops to repair something like that, but on a Gen 3? If the argument is that they last longer than Gen 1's, isn't that more of a manufacturing defect than anything inherently better in having organic components?

 

3. Right, the infiltrator units. But how many can they possibly need? 10? 50? 100? Isn't it a waste of resources to have every single unit an infiltrator-ready model? They all still need to eat, go to the bathroom, bathe, breathe - how is this more efficient than simply having robots than need electricity and some regular maintenance?

 

The Enclave had scientists as well, so do the BOS, and the NCR. While it's true that the Institute doesn't have the same resources as those organizations, and would certainly need more automated workers, how does having basically androids in meat suits make them more efficient? I don't remember seeing anything at all that states robot workers are less efficient than humanoids - in fact, judging by the fact that automated sentry guns and guard units still function and perform their (admittedly "dumb") duties more than 200 years after the Great War, how are they less than their organic counterparts?

 

OK, fine they created a sentient slave race - but why make it in their own flawed image? Why go that final step and make their slaves organic and to the point where they were indistinguishable from humans except in death? That's what galls me - the Institute is supposed to be full of these Geniuses but they keep making stupid move after stupid move, not hubris - stupidity. If the Synths had developed free will independently I could buy the Institute not knowing what to do with the Synths, but that's not what happened - they set out to have the Synths have free will and I just can't buy that making sense.

[Moraelin]

Well, you know, sometimes people do things just because they can. Or God complex, curiosity, or a miriad of other motivations.

 

Plus, humanoid robots ARE a major theme of SF in the 50's and 60's (see, RUK or Mudd's planet of synth babes in Star Trek alone), which is the theme that Fallout is going for.

 

So it seems to me like in that aspect, really, there's nothing broken, and there's nothing to be fixed. If you don't like the game, or the plot, fine, it's a subjective thing. But there's nothing to be fixed about its using that particular trope.

 

That said... In the Institute's case, I SUSPECT a large motivation would have been the brain. ALL electronics they have, from terminals to the chips in the Gen 3 synths, are not just compatible, but basically just pre-war chips with more miniaturization. The chips in a Gen 3's head can literally run the same binary program that runs on a pre-war Mr Handy / Miss Nanny. See, Curie. Their OS not only is the same RobCo pre-war OS that's on every terminal elsewhere, but they even haven't patched the vulnerabilities in 200 years.

 

And really, other than Valentine, their purely electronic robots are no more advanced than a Protectron. The main difference between Gen1 and Gen2 seems to be the rubber exterior, so they're not really making much progress either. I don't know why they gave up with Valentine, but maybe that line was too expensive?

 

So essentially my guess is that they came up with the same idea that went into the pre-war Robo-brains: let's put a human brain in it. Except the Robo-brains tend to go nuts, and if you've played Automatron, you've msee that you have to go through a lot of brains for one that is successfully converted to robot. So instead they go at it from the other direction. Instead of making a robot and putting a brain in it, hey produce a human-enough being and put some chips in its brain.

 

As for infiltration, the number would be: lots :p They seem to infiltrate all over the place, and they constantly lose a lot of infiltrators, either to people shooting them or to the Railroad. And by "all over the place", I mean it goes at least all the way to DC.

[CyrusAmell]

1. Synthetic organs for replacements to keep a current human body going are a huge possibility with this technology. Synthetic insects could be used to pollinate plants in the absence of insects that used to do this (which was a pretty big loss following the war). One Bioscience Division scientist proposed synthetic merpeople for underwater expeditions.

 

2. I said they don't need to eat or sleep. The Gen 3 have some innate advantages that are posited throughout the game. Paladin Danse managed to tank engine fire from a rocket in an early Bortherhood quest which would have toasted a regular human, power armor or not. And as I said, robots are not as smart and able to adapt as humans - they would need constant supervision for even the most basic tasks. This is why robots could have been deemed unsuitable for the construction jobs that Gen 3 synths are expected to do.

 

3. I do not think it is stated that Gen 3 need to eat and sleep and etc. They are made to think they do so as to fit in with human society when needed. As for how many they need infiltrating the surface, even I can only guess.

 

Robots are more efficient than humans in a single task-to-task basis. But you can't leave a Protectron alone in a room and tell it to build the furniture, paint the walls, and what have you unless you took the time to program it for every single task. In Vault 101 during Fallout 3, a Mr. Handy just like Codsworth named Andy was made a doctor out of the blue and his first task was to take care of sprained toe. He then promptly cut off the poor woman's legs. In short, humans can adapt and articulate the needs of a situation in ways a robot cannot without first programming them for the task. Even then, the robots would still require constant supervision which is something Institute scientists do not wan't to be bothered with.

 

As for asking me to defend Bethesda's daft representation of a group of scientists, I will not. That is because even I do not know why the Institute does half the things they do. Unlike every other faction, their goals are either needlessly complicated or never truly elaborated upon. No one ever sits us down at a table and explains what their core ideology is, if they even have one. Despite being a group of people that has been around for almost 200 years I never really got the feeling that they represented an actual culture beyond science, lab coats and business meetings.

Edited April 10, 2016 by CyrusAmell

[Moraelin]

Actually, I'm pretty sure it was stated by Zimmer in FO3 that the Gen 3 (which he calls "Androids") DON'T need to sleep, eat or drink. They CAN though, to pass easier for humans, as his bodyguard does.

 

Considering that he's (A) head of the SRB, and (B) knowledgeable enough to install a courser chip into a human, I'd say I have no reasonable reason to doubt that information.

[k361]

It is quite obvious, as for Institute's main goal they seek to eradicate last traces of pre-war society which people seem to embrace still and replace it with a new model, as for what that model could be, some sort of utopian society most likely. Regarding 3rd gen synths I'd refer to Blade Runner in fact. Personally I think that Instutite to an extent still didn't move over the initial failure when they attempted to introduce synths to surface population. Sneaking in upgraded model hoping that one day people will understand and learn to tolerate them could be what they are trying to pull off lately, but that is only a speculation. As for the creation process I think it is mostly automated, maybe costly but seems the Institute can afford it. Replacing existing people with their synth double, so far I seen in-game that Institute is rather pragmatic no matter how cold it may sound they to my knowledge which isn't much honestly replace mostly people whom do not contribute, like Warwick.

 

Well I personally think that Institute is pulling the short end here cause synths may not fully replace human agents on the surface and human agents could be more effective but unlike synths whom you can program exactly what you need them to do, human agents tend to think for themselves and as an example here is Kellogg whom was quite a mercenary but perhaps unfit for acquisition operations. Conquest is viable if you have standing military force and resources to back it up. Kellogg obviously forgot about human assets being actually more useful. Much like Institute which is kind of scared to try again, not to mention that people see them as the boogeyman, at the end Institute left surfacers to that and begun representing itself as such. Yet both Institute and Kellogg went wrong way when dealing with the surface.

Edited April 11, 2016 by k361

[CyrusAmell]

It is quite obvious, as for Institute's main goal they seek to eradicate last traces of pre-war society which people seem to embrace still and replace it with a new model, as for what that model could be, some sort of utopian society most likely.

 

Where does it even say that? I keep seeing this pop up on tv tropes.com but I have never seen it personally in game. Was there a memo I missed?

Edited April 11, 2016 by CyrusAmell

[darkus37]

Thank you all for participating in this discussion - I don't really feel that I'm any closer understanding the point of making all the Synths Gen 3's (besides lazy writing) but some interesting points were made that I'm going to consider. Again, thanks a lot!