Information Request - Weapon Type Limitations

[MarkInMKUK]

My limited understanding is that there is a limit to the number of types of weapon in Oblivion, and further to this, some kind of limitation on how you can contort or change this limit to add new items. There are also dual wield mods, and new wepon types such as muskets and crossbows, but no pole-based weapons or throwing weapons.

 

Can some one please explain - in words of close to one syllable - what the limits are, and what the restrictions on stretching those limits cover.

 

Also are any of these limits or limitations changed by the use of OBSE?

[MShoap13]

My limited understanding is that there is a limit to the number of types of weapon in Oblivion, and further to this, some kind of limitation on how you can contort or change this limit to add new items. There are also dual wield mods, and new wepon types such as muskets and crossbows, but no pole-based weapons or throwing weapons.

 

Can some one please explain - in words of close to one syllable - what the limits are, and what the restrictions on stretching those limits cover.

 

Also are any of these limits or limitations changed by the use of OBSE?

 

All the Dual wield mods I've seen simply use the offhand weapon as a shield, and it has no attack animations. So, they aren't really "dual wield" IMEO.

 

Doing a file search for "throw" in the title brings back some interesting results, including "throwing knives", "kunai, and "throw any weapon". And, I believe I've seen some polearms too but I can't seem to find them now :dry:.

 

It seems like you're looking for information for a possible mod. While I'm unable to answer your question directly due to a lack of knowledge on the subject, hopefully, this post is helpful anyways. :smile:

[David Brasher]

The spear and polearm weapons I have seen are all just claymores with a different shape. The bad part is when the weapon is swung straight in front of the actor and the butt of the shaft sticks through the actor's belly and out his or her back. That animation looks really bad. It also looks kind of bad in general that the person with the spear keeps trying to scratch enemies with the tip while slashing with the spear instead of trying to stab them with it.

 

I believe all the dual wield mods just have a shield that is shaped like a weapon and cannot actually hurt anyone.

 

Gun mods that use the bow animation are terrible. It is also lame having a cartridge flung at the enemy and then you can go pick it up off the ground and use it again. Gun mods that use the staff animation can be pretty cool. It is more like firing from the hip than bracing the piece against the shoulder and aiming properly, but I find it acceptable, and enjoy mods like that.

 

I haven't actually tested any crossbow mods, but my guess is that the animation would look wrong -- drawing a bolt from the quiver on your back and drawing back with the right hand while holding the body of the weapon with the left hand. That is not how a crossbow is supposed to work.

 

It is my understanding that weapon use is hardcoded in oblivion and cannot be changed much. You either have a blade, blunt, bow, or staff. Any mod that people make uses these animations. My guess would be that the hardcoding prevents anyone from doing otherwise. But if that is not the case, then it would require a genius uber-modder who is good at modeling and 3-D animation to be able to have a weapon that does not use one of the four vanilla animation sets.

[fore]

In my opinion it's a matter of making the right animations. The only limitation is having only 4 weapon types.

 

But for the player, or a specific NPC, the weapon animation, and even the skeleton for different weapon placement can be substituted. Both permanently, or temporarily (thanks to OBSE).

 

Time and again, these ideas fail because it's so difficult to make good adequate animations. Maybe if someone knows of usable mocaps?

[MarkInMKUK]

In my opinion it's a matter of making the right animations. The only limitation is having only 4 weapon types.

 

But for the player, or a specific NPC, the weapon animation, and even the skeleton for different weapon placement can be substituted. Both permanently, or temporarily (thanks to OBSE).

 

So...

 

(1)The four weapon types are Sword / Bow / Axe / Staff?

(2)Within Sword and Axe types there are one-hand and two-hand variations...?

(3)...amd off-hand weapons are, in fact, fudged shields using a mirrored animation of the main animation for that weapon type?

(4)Also, extra animations can be created and substituted/added, but only to the existing weapon classes.

 

OK - so, leaving aside the complex problem of decent motion capture-based animations for new weapons for the moment, and the complexity of the scripting involved to reliably switch weapon types for specific equipped items, in theory, you could create:

(a)Throwing weapons as a form of bow, with an invisible bow and quiver, and the thrown weapon as a type of arrow?

(b)Crossbows as a variety of bow, with revised quiver?

©Pole weapons as staff variants.

 

Dual wield would depend on some way of making a shield cause damage, but then would be limited (again) by animation as you'd want a proper "dual" movement not two separate left-then-right animations.

 

There is, of course, hand-to-hand combat, and an arguement to say that knife/dagger fighting should be grouped with that in style, apart from when throwing the dagger. And dual-dagger fighting styles mainly for the arena.

 

Or have I gone off and barked up the wrong tree, possibly in entirely the wrong forest?

 

Speaking of the arena, there was also a net used in place of a shield in one standard gladiatorial costume - another custom animation I guess.

[fore]

No, the 4 weapon types are 1Hand, 2Hand, Bow, Staff. They decide, which animations to choose. And Dagger/Knifes are 1H. Actually there are 6 types in the CS to choose from, combining blade/blunt with 1H/2H, but there are only sain 4 animation types. I leave H2H out this list, because there is no weapon which activates those H2H animations.

 

Dual wield sure could be done with 1H and a shield. You just have to make animations which animate both arms appropriately. Unlike Skyrim, where both arms can fight independantly, one animation has to use left and right arms in one animation.

 

But you have some freedom here. Like in H2H, you have several attack versions together with combinations right/left (right, right_hook, right_jab, left, left_hook, left_jab). So it's apparently possible to have a number of attacks, and the names dont seem to be hardcoded. But I don't know if there is a limit to how many versions one can use. And you cannot selectively use them. Only the paired use left/right is defined.

 

I wouldn't think too much about dual wield damage. Just make the damage of the the primary weapon a bit higher. And even "shields" (secondary weapons) can cause damage when blocking.

 

Throwing I would do as a bow animation with an invisible bow, because in the bow animation you have the detachment of the "arrow" defined. But as UV shows (which I havn't used yet), it's also possible with the help of (special) idle animations.

 

And Gladiator with net? would be interesting. Here on Nexus?

 

EDIT: Thinking about how UV does it, and probably extending it, it's the easiest way to work with special idle animations.

As soon as a "special" weapon is equipped, one (out of several specialized) skeleton with equip and other animations is loaded, but without combat animations which prevents the character from normal attacking. All attacks are implemented with idle animations. Which leaves some scripting or work-arounds for other attack features (sound, opponent damage, opponent stagger, ...). Maybe some of that (damage) can be implemented by some invisible spells hitting the oponent.

 

Just an idea ... :)

[MarkInMKUK]

I'm sure I spotted a post a while back with someone using unused off-hand animation slots for extra weapon animations.

 

I was having a think about weapon types, and combinations, and trying to break down what would be needed to make them look even vaguely "right". This is what I came up with for basic thrown weapons.

 

Dagger (single):

Additional animatioms to add throwing:

Flip dagger to hold blade (at this point you script a change so the weapon is treated like a bow and arrow)

"Fire" dagger at target (dagger drawn back over shoulder, and thrown at target blade first [i know it SHOULD tumble, but straight blade first is far easier]).

Flip dagger to hold hilt again (resets to default dagger behaviour)

 

Scripting:

Toggle "bow/arrow" mode

Chance to hit and bounce off, drop to floor, 100% retrieval but maybe variable damage to cover blade hitting stone or whatever)

Dagger "stuck in" target like a used arrow.

Fallen dagger should revert to being a "vanilla" dagger.

Retrieved "Thrown Dagger" scripted to become "normal dagger" in inventory.

 

Shuriken / Throwing Knives:

Additional Mesh/texture:

Replacement for quiver (offhand quiver?) - bandolier of some sort

 

Additional animations to add throwing:

Draw dagger and hold by blade.

Dagger: "Fire" dagger at target (dagger drawn back over shoulder, and thrown at target blade first [i know it SHOULD tumble, but straight blade first is far easier]).

Shuriken: "Frisbee-type" throw but just using wrist action. "Spinning" shuriken as morphing mesh?

Re-sheath dagger.

 

Scripting:

Chance to hit and bounce off, drop to floor, 100% retrieval but maybe variable damage to cover blade hitting stone or whatever)

Shuriken "stuck in" target like a used arrow?

 

Sling:

(I am lucky enough to have found a few video shots of a world champion slinger in action, trying to duplicate the David and Goliath feat of hitting a target the size of a forehead on an armoured man. I can probably edit these out of the whole programme if any animator can use them)

 

Similar animation to the thrown dagger, but the sling might need to be an animated mesh to give the correct effect.

Sling stones - should bounce off for retrieval unless it's a fatal shot, in which case count it as "lost".

 

Edit: While I was writing this, someone posted a request for a knock-out mod- the ability to use the hilt of a dagger as a cosh would add another level of realism (and increase the complexity again - I know).

 

Edit 2: Daggers are also useful in some swordfighting styles as a blocker. More complexity :(

 

I'm hoping this is making sense - it does to ME, but then I'm no modder.

Edited July 17, 2011 by MarkInMKUK

[fore]

Looks great to me, although I'm not a fighting type of player. I don't use DR, or UV, or those. What interested me in your post are the necessary changes to animation and fighting system basics.

 

One remark to the sling. Coronerra's skeleton has 8 bones for a whip, which could be used for a nice sling animation. Maybe the bones just need to be re-scaled.

 

But again: it's the animations which limit these approaches. I'm making animations, and I'm scripting. And what you describe as scripting sounds like almost nothing compared with what you need for doing good animations. Everytime I have modeled a new animation, I spent hours and hours in Blender just to see that it looks wierd in-game. And really unprofessional. So for myself I would never do any of those animation. Without mocap. :smile:

[MarkInMKUK]

Part of the point of the post was trying to break what needed to be done down into individual parts - it's often easier to look at each part and decide whether it is possible rather than looking at the whole and just feeling overwhelmed. As far as animation goes, I know that Grumpf_be used 3DSMax a lot for the Claudia's Little Secret animations - so maybe that's a better tool (sadly, not a free one). Sadly, a spare (and free) mo-cap studio is somewhat hard to find :(

 

Maybe someone who has tried the various mods can advise on anyplace they have SEEN existing animations which could work. I believe the Thieve's Arsenal has a blackjack weapon, so maybe there are new animations in that?

[forli]

Why don't you get UV and look at the code?

The mod is bugged and unstable, but you can import and correct the code you need for your mod.

It has what you are searching for:

 

Dual wield:

• You can use any weapon, even from mods as off-hand weapon.
• Off hand weapon is completely separated from the main weapon: the off-hand weapon has a SEPARATE KEY (off-hand attack key)
• Damages inflicted by off-hand weapon depend on off-hand weapon (not main weapon)
• Using the off-hand weapon, will deteriorate off-hand weapon (not main weapon)
• You can tap/press both attack and off-hand attack keys together to use combo attacks/power attacks.

Throwing

• You can throw any item (not only weapons) to the enemy, and you can use zoom.
• Weapons will stuck in walls or other object
• You have a special key to throw
• The strength of the throw will depend on how long you keep pressed the throw key
• Enemies hit by a throw can stagger/knock-back depend on the weight of the weapon/item