Okay, this has gone far enough.

[myrmaad]

You can get through the Oblivion gates, and live with Necromancers and Unicorns fine though, Right? :psyduck:

 

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/archive/8/89/20080623042042!Elder_Scrolls_Arena_Cover.jpg

 

 

And just for the record, Bben is a Rock Star!

[Moraelin]

@Moraelin

One can't really mix and match pre-Carolingian pagan times, renaissance cod-pieces, and Chaucer into one big pot as if it's all some non-descript middle-ages.

 

Sure you can - we just did. :tongue:

 

The game isn't really set in either the 'Dark ages' 'middle ages' or any actual age in history as it is a fantasy set on some non historical imaginary world that has only a token resemblance to any real historical era. And that makes any apparel style you prefer appropriate to your game.. Most people prefer something similar to what they imagine was worn in their own concept of 'pre Renaissance middle ages', but some like their outfits a little more fantasy or even a bit modern. So if you think pointy shoes and codpieces fit go for it. :rolleyes:

 

Basically - anything goes. :thumbsup:

 

I was talking about "it's historical!!!" vs "it's ahistorical!!!" discussions, not about the game itself. I find that most people really make a hash, to various extents. Either, yes, as myrmaad was saying, a lot seem to think Victorian era is medieval, or they mix things into one picture that really weren't "active" so to speak at the same time. Saying "they were doing X, Y and Z in the middle ages" kinda implies that all 3 were in common use all the time, or at least at the same time. E.g., saying that they were wearing strap-on cod pieces AND wearing phallic shoes AND wearing dresses which left the breasts bare, kinda makes one think "oh, la-la, they were quite the depraved bunch." In reality, for any given year or century within the Middle Ages and in any given place, they were wearing strap-on cod pieces OR wearing shoes that the church was decrying as phallic, but actually it was just the church being against the sin of Vanity, OR wearing dresses which left the breasts bare OR the vast majority of the time neither. In fact, one of those isn't even medieval at all, and the other two are actually very late events, as earlier the church would have s**t a brick if you tried any of that.

 

I'm saying that the image is more complex, and any discussion of the real historical middle ages has to take into account the time axis, and the social and political context in which such excesses happened. Which changed with time.

 

The game on the other hand, yes, of course, it's the usual anachronistic mix of stuff ranging from ancient to Victorian (minus the guns and since Oblivion the crossbows), and from British Celtic to Japanese. Short of gunpowder and lightsabers, pretty much anything is lore-friendly :P

 

And personally I'm not stopping anyone from adding gunpowder or lightsabers either. I mean, it would be hypocritical, since I do worse stuff to the Fallout lore all the time :P

Edited July 29, 2011 by Moraelin

[rinoaff33]

This topic truly is the dead horse, isn't it? Still, I can see where the topic creator is coming from, and for some reason I feel the need to add my $0.02. I think there are several reasons why there are two sides to this...

 

Pro Skimpy arguments

 

1. Let's get this one out of the way: Stereotypical men like hot women. Some people like Oblivion to be a pure fantasy game.

2. It's a fantasy game; it's a tradition for fantasy games to have scantily-clad-yet-still-powerful women - just look at the Arena poster up there.

3. It's artistic and looks nice.

 

Anti Skimpy arguments

 

1. It detracts from realism; it looks ridiculous.

2. It shoves other non-skimpy armor mods out of the way and steals the limelight.

3. It reflects poorly on us as gamers, since it's long been a stereotype that gamers in general are mouth-breathing nerds.

4. And here's one that I notice: Armor mods in general, but especially skimpy ones, just don't "fit in" with the game. It's breaks both progression and immersion.

 

Personally, I'm somewhat divided. The inner man in me likes skimpy armor, obviously. However, I do think that it overall detracts from the experience. I have mods like the Apachii Goddess Store installed but I rarely if ever use them except for any companions I may use. I've come to the point where I almost always play female characters (I don't know why, though) and I prefer them to be good-looking but not be scantily-clad. However, on the same vein, I dislike most of the vanilla armor greatly, as it's quite ugly. I prefer a balance between conservative and skimpy - you know, like real life. For me, form-fitting but not overly revealing is the sweet spot (wow that sounded perverted, but it's true).

 

To be honest, I think the main reason I don't like to play games with blatant fanservice girls stems from the fact that I don't like the image that puts on me. It makes me look like a generic nerd/perv to my friends and family.

Edited July 30, 2011 by rinoaff33

[Moraelin]

Anti Skimpy arguments

 

1. It detracts from realism; it looks ridiculous.

2. It shoves other non-skimpy armor mods out of the way and steals the limelight.

3. It reflects poorly on us as gamers, since it's long been a stereotype that gamers in general are mouth-breathing nerds.

4. And here's one that I notice: Armor mods in general, but especially skimpy ones, just don't "fit in" with the game. It's breaks both progression and immersion.

 

It's a good summary, but TBH and to actually address the topic for a change, I'm actually not impressed by any of the 4. In that order:

 

1. It detracts from realism; it looks ridiculous.

 

It's a very subjective argument, actually, and applies to everything else. E.g., for me gigantic swords like Cloud's Buster Sword look absolutely ridiculous and detract from realism, but, shoot, some people must like those, since it's probably the most ported around sword ever. But on the flip side, there are people who think that an accurately sized Zweihänder is ridiculously thin and flimsy and breaks realism. E.g., in the domain of armours, and if we're talking realism, even a non-skimpy game-style female breastplate -- i.e., plate-with-breasts ;) -- forms a nice valley that would guide any sword or spear thrust up into your neck and be quite fatal; there's a reason why real breastplates were actually boat-keel shaped. So, you know, I'm finding that ridiculous and breaking realism. But for other people it looks ridiculous and/or unrealistic to make everyone look like a guy. Etc.

 

There wouldn't be much left if we got rid of everything that breaks realism for someone or another :P

 

2. It shoves other non-skimpy armor mods out of the way and steals the limelight.

 

This would be a good argument, if it weren't for the whole "it's subjective" part, as I detailed above. Basically it's kinda Sturgeon's Law: 90% of everything is crap. And, sure, it shoves the other 10% out of the way. BUT, for everyone it's a different 90%.

 

Probably the most trivial example is non-armour: for fans of Japanese swords, all this European swords crap is pushing the stuff they want out of the way and stealing the limelight. Meanwhile, for fans of European medieval swords, it's all the Japanese and Anime crap that is pushing the stuff they want out of the way and stealing the limelight.

 

But basically the same applies to armour too. I'm sure that for someone actually looking for bouncy chainmail bikinis, it's the rest of the stuff that's pushing the good stuff out of the way, etc.

 

Ultimately there is no way to have a download site that caters exactly to MY tastes and doesn't have that 90% stuff I don't want padding the list. We'll all have to live with each other, and use the back button lots.

 

3. It reflects poorly on us as gamers, since it's long been a stereotype that gamers in general are mouth-breathing nerds.

 

For a lot of people, just being a gamer is enough for that. So I'm not impressed.

 

But, really, a lot of it is just culture inertia. Everyone doing something differently than what was acceptable X decades ago, gets ridiculed or vilified to various extents. At some point going to the newfangled movies was some kind of low-brow entertainment for idiots, if you listened to the respectable old guys. And in turn, if you go waay back to Roman times, they had to disguise the first permanent theatre as a temple (to a deity of theatre, heh) to be allowed to build such a newfangled low-brow entertainment in the middle of a respectable city.

 

4. And here's one that I notice: Armor mods in general, but especially skimpy ones, just don't "fit in" with the game. It's breaks both progression and immersion.

 

Well, that's true of most mods that add any items. E.g., if I add some swords to Fallout -- or I'm working on an Oblivion port right now -- I'll want them to be available from the start, or really from whatever point the guy downloading them wants. They'll also be conveniently placed. I don't have the time or interest in making whole quests and factions and making sure that it fits in seamlessly with the story or level progression. If someone else wants to do that, they're welcome, but I don't have the time or interest in that.

 

I'd assume that the same applies to most people. We're talking individual modders with a finite amount of time and interests. Someone who likes making swords or armour or whatever, is going to want to make that, not spend 10 times more time making lands, and factions, and books, and quests, so they fit in seamlessly in the game and actually belong there. They'll dump them in some crate or add them to some guards' list, and that'll be it.

[Trypal7]

I like the----+ "try and make your own", "from scratch" approach

 

__maybe then there will be satisfaction gauranteed__?

 

I thank and appreciate all who take whatever amount of time and skill to make content for this already awsome game, Yall keep doing what you do and thank you all who make this a better experience:):):)

 

 

 

 

*note* we do have a quite large and extensive selection to choose from already do we not? Cheerio!:D

Edited July 30, 2011 by Trypal7

[RGMage2]

As someone who has released a couple of skimpy female-only outfits and will do so again, I did not find the OP to be in any way offensive. Of course that may be because I've seen these threads so many times now that I've become indifferent to the rant.

 

Or

 

It could be that the collective weight of all these redundant threads has actually modified my views.

 

Complaints against the skimpy female stuff are usually accompanied by a lot of crying about the lack of new male armours and how everything is aimed at female characters, and this is a point of view that I have become sympathetic to. Not to the point where I would dedicate all of my time to making new male armours, but I do think about it now.

 

When I made the Na'vi race in my Navatar mod, I made sure I had a male version that was equal to the female. The female was finished a month before the male, but I held it back because I didn't want to put Female-only in the description. To me female-only now has a bit of a stigma to it, and that is a result of reading these types of threads.

 

Having said that, it does not mean that I would not release something that was female-only. My preference is to have something that is balanced and complete, but the time it takes to do things is a major factor in what actually gets done.

 

Point is that these repetitive threads have had an influence on my own perception. It is also not lost on me that the majority of players play male characters. (last poll I saw showed 65%) However I retain the right to ignore anyone else's preference, just as I do with the female body mods where the vast majority use HGEC and I continue to use Bab.

 

What I'm trying to say here is that the horse might not be dead. Modders are just ordinary human beings who can be influenced by what they read. Now I am just one obscure and unknown modder who is not going to change the direction of ES modding, but if enough of us are influenced, even if it is only in small ways, then perhaps someday there could be changes in our direction.

[7vincent7black7]

Complaints against the skimpy female stuff are usually accompanied by a lot of crying about the lack of new male armours and how everything is aimed at female characters, and this is a point of view that I have become sympathetic to. Not to the point where I would dedicate all of my time to making new male armours, but I do think about it now.

What I'm trying to say here is that the horse might not be dead. Modders are just ordinary human beings who can be influenced by what they read. Now I am just one obscure and unknown modder who is not going to change the direction of ES modding, but if enough of us are influenced, even if it is only in small ways, then perhaps someday there could be changes in our direction.

 

 

1) I will admit, it is possible that if my character were to be a massive over-buff He-man wearing only a lower-body toga/underwear thing...it might scare me. But the concept of the willingness to make cool armour and clothes for both females AND males is both reassuring and a desirably acceptable stature in this present argument. If I do come across one of the kinds of mods for males that would scare me in the way I just described I'll simply pass it on. :razz:

 

 

2) I can fully agree that what we read in this thread affects our way of thinking, just look at my first post near the bottom of page 5. I was downright obstinate. This is entirely true and it is both something to anticipate and to beware of because it could cause us to sway away from a respectful position in the argument and cause us to say things we would later regret.

 

3) in regards to your parting comment about hoping that gradually we could change our direction, my favorite quoute from the series leverage is when the character Nate and helped return millions of dollars to a hospital and all the nurse could say was, "This isn't how the world works!" And all he said back was, "Then change the world."

[Khet]

As someone who has released a couple of skimpy female-only outfits and will do so again, I did not find the OP to be in any way offensive. Of course that may be because I've seen these threads so many times now that I've become indifferent to the rant.

 

Or

 

It could be that the collective weight of all these redundant threads has actually modified my views.

 

Complaints against the skimpy female stuff are usually accompanied by a lot of crying about the lack of new male armours and how everything is aimed at female characters, and this is a point of view that I have become sympathetic to. Not to the point where I would dedicate all of my time to making new male armours, but I do think about it now.

 

When I made the Na'vi race in my Navatar mod, I made sure I had a male version that was equal to the female. The female was finished a month before the male, but I held it back because I didn't want to put Female-only in the description. To me female-only now has a bit of a stigma to it, and that is a result of reading these types of threads.

 

Having said that, it does not mean that I would not release something that was female-only. My preference is to have something that is balanced and complete, but the time it takes to do things is a major factor in what actually gets done.

 

Point is that these repetitive threads have had an influence on my own perception. It is also not lost on me that the majority of players play male characters. (last poll I saw showed 65%) However I retain the right to ignore anyone else's preference, just as I do with the female body mods where the vast majority use HGEC and I continue to use Bab.

 

What I'm trying to say here is that the horse might not be dead. Modders are just ordinary human beings who can be influenced by what they read. Now I am just one obscure and unknown modder who is not going to change the direction of ES modding, but if enough of us are influenced, even if it is only in small ways, then perhaps someday there could be changes in our direction.

 

Yanno, I actually smiled when I read this. I have no problem at all with skimpy armor vs "real" armor, but the thing that drives me nuts is the gender-specific armor. I'm well aware how time consuming it can be to create both male and female versions of a set of armor. But, I've come to the personal conclusion that those that play male characters look for more of the realistic armor, and those that play female generally want to skimpier, flamboyant showy armor. Not every one is like that (I myself prefer the realistic armors, so I tend to stick with the FCOM and Vanilla for both my male and female characters) but if modders were to take the time to create versions for both genders, I think both camps would ultimately be a little happier.