The Worst My Generation Has To Offer

[Curt Sibling]

And Mr Acrid,

 

Should we judge actions today on the brutishness of several centuries ago?

[Akrid]

Should we judge actions today on the brutishness of several centuries ago?

 

History repeats itself

 

As for the eariler post, yes we do think the same on selfish view, not saying it's right, but it's real. But why pick out America? there are far more messed up countries, with much more ridiculas leaders. If you don't like Bush just wait there be another president. And if you don't like U.S. policies they'll change one day to, but who's to say what the future will bring. It would take a very complex mind to actually see where a entire nation is going. And it is easy to see the effects of a goverment with out seeing it's reason behind what caused those effects, therefore questions are left about the motives of that goverment or leader. I would suggest researching into politics and domestic and foriegn policies if want to know about the workings of a nations systems. All we can see is the world from our perspective, but people are rarley given all the facts to draw such conclusions. Bush was not the worst, keep in mind Clinton was in our generation also. But my opinion is Michael Jackson is the worst our generation has to offer. Anyway The war in Iraq was going to happen, and the death toll wasn't that bad compared to other wars (considering the amount delt with in the small time frame) And 9-11 was not a fake, there where real airplanes that crashed into the building's and no suicidal U.S. agents did it. The story book world of hateing America is just dumb. Some things are just facts. I don't target the leaders of America when it comes to BS, I target the companies and groups that make stupid laws and try to shape America without the consent of the people. Congress and such, but due to Americans in general not active in voting and politics the people actually decide little. Well I hope you see my point.

[Curt Sibling]

Yep, I can accept your stance.

 

I should mention I am a lucky enough to be a Brit, and proud to be so.

 

And Mr Acrid, I think there is much ground we have in common, on this and other issues.

 

Indeed, it goes without saying that I am not targetting the US, but that is the topic of the thread.

No malice to the US citizens, just casting some free speech about the management.

 

Indeed, I actually think the idea of America is the best chance of peace for the West.

If only we could keep the high values in sight. We could assure a decent and fair existence for all in our hemisphere.

 

But I veer away from my point.

 

I hope the Bush admin knows what it is doing in the big term, as there is a lot at stake for millions of Westerners.

 

It is a case of watching and seeing what transpires.

 

I think we can agree on that?

[ctogher]

Weee! B)

 

Love & Hate in the "New Millenium" or "Eat my Crumpet and Like It, OR ELSE!"

 

Let's try on some alternate perspectives, just for fun:

(NB! These are personal OPINIONS, not substantive fact!! :P )

 

A] Mankind NEEDS someone to blame when something goes wrong. We have some in-built flaw whereby we elect to high office one of our number, follow this person's lead without heed or question, and when this individual displays some basic human flaw, (greed, self preservation, bad judgement), Yeeaha!, it's HAMMER TIME! :angry2:

 

B] The powers that be have been aggressively applying the fundamental principles of Cliology in an attempt to reduce us to simple variables in a mathematical equation in order to manage us better. As in all Great Works, there may be one or two minor glitches, but, never mind, I'm SURE it will all work out for the best... in a thousand years..... propably.... :mellow:

 

Personally, I believe that the very last person that should be allowed access to public office is the one who wants it. I will say this only once. Anyone actively trying to become president is NOT doing so for the good of his fellow man. His motives are NOT transparent, but SELFISH. T.Pratchet had it right... as soon as he's elected, lock him up in prison. This will save a lot of time and effort later....

 

Let's face facts. Anyone spouting reasons for war can quite safely be ignored on the grounds that no sane person would do so. Should el presidente begin selling the idea of war, ask yourself the following:

 

i) Why does he have to SELL the idea in the first place?

ii) Has he had ANY personal experience of war?

iii) Where's the MONEY?

 

Now for the big one. Please note that I have no intention of entering into debate on this topic with anyone other than vets.

 

Yes! 911 was a tragedy on grand scale. BUT only because:

 

1] It happened on the "sacred" soil of the good ol' US of A.

2] Live coverage by CNN internationally.

3] It provided detailed images to the world at large of how terrorism affects all concerned.

 

To put the above in perspective, there are attrocities commited everyday against far greater numbers of people elsewhere in the developing world. These receive no live news coverage and are therefore of no consequence. There are far worse dictators out there than Osama "SATAN" Bin Laden. Again, the countries suffering under their rule have no attributable wealth or resources and can be safely ignored as a result. Spare me the doggerel about the horror and bloodshed. ALL war, regardless of the logic behind it, is an abomination. Anyone actively seeking the oppurtunity to take by force that which is not theirs is evil. ANYONE taking human life to carry their argument is evil.

 

It all begins when we start to actually believe our leaders. When we start to treat people as things, not human beings. Open your eyes and ears to the rest of the world and you might discover that you are not alone. The average man in the street has no desire further than making a living. ALL human suffering has its roots in politics and religion. Your choices are few, but take the time to actually apply a little logic before blindly accepting the politicos view.

 

I say damn them all to hell and stop voting. Either that or apply stricter control over salary and influence. Make public office as appealing as joining a monastary, and maybe, just maybe, you'll start getting individuals who are actually concerned over the wellfare of their fellow man.

 

If you continue to be surprised that the man you elected to office was perhaps not the wisest choice, considering his tendancy to giggle while declaring war on turnips because of the blatant disregard for his roses, maybe we should go back to climbing trees.... :blush:

[Darnoc]

Bush wants to bring democracy to all the world? Right. Now I'm from Switzerland and I think I can say a lot more about this subject than anyone else, because the only true democracy is Switzerland (or at least the democracy in which the people have the greatest power). It is true, most countries don't have democracy (that's why the UNO is a sharade; the only country in which the people chose to join the UNO was Switzerland) and some of the closest allies of the USA are some of the worst abusers of human rights (Saudi Arabia, to which Bush has connections through the oil business). And what is with globalisation? Is this the beginning of the golden age of humanity? Look at Africa, then you have your answer. What happens there is the worst nightmare and a shame for the western countries. A german politican called it once "predator-capitalism" and this is exactly what is happening down there. Interesting that nothing is in the news about Africa. Does someone want us not to know about the things happening there? In Africa more people day everyday than in the war against Iraq!

 

For example: Angola. Because of the ressources of this country, it should be the richest country in Africa. Well, it is one of the poorest. There's a civil war going on there since the Portugeasens were driven out of there. On one side is the communist governemnt on the other side a pro-west and democratic guerilla organization. Guess who the USA is supporting? Well, guess again: It's the communist governement. At least since the beginning of the ninetees. Before 1990 the USA supported Savimbi and his guerillas, but then a lot of oil was discoverd at the coast, which is controlled by the communists. Suddenly the USA changed their politics and supported the communist governemnt. US-firms bought the oil fields of Angola and began to harvest the oil there. Are the USA really fighting for democracy?

 

Another example of much worse kind: Rwanda. Some of you perhaps remember the genzozid there. Guess who laid in the veto, so that the UNO didn't send any troops there and so the Hutus had free way to massacre the Tutsi population? Of course, the USA. Between a half and one million people were killed in a few months, this was the worst genozid since the holocaust in WW2.

 

So, when you are now interested and want to know more, I recommend you to read the "African keen" by Peter Scholl-Latour (original Title: "Afrikanische Totenklage" I don't know, if the english title I gave you was the name of the book in English), a german journalists who travells to the crisis-regions and then writes down, what he sees there. This book opened my eyes and I saw the whole lie of our governments. The only goal of the industrials and governemnts is money and power, everything else is a lie.

[Akrid]

I say damn them all to hell and stop voting. Either that or apply stricter control over salary and influence. Make public office as appealing as joining a monastary, and maybe, just maybe, you'll start getting individuals who are actually concerned over the wellfare of their fellow man.

 

Good idea.

 

War is bad yes, but I don't see a end to it, unless it is the end.

 

About what Darnoc said about Africa, it's all true. I studied this. I don't really don't care for any of those murderous monsters, that kill men, woman and children like animals. I don't think we should have been involved at all in any African problem, America has really never done any good there, other than allowing a migration of African's to the new world, though it was hard for them at first as rasicm was strong amoung southern Americans. I know of the Africans multilating their womans genitals to prenvent them from enjoying sex so they will be loyal to their old ugly slave master husband. Murder is greater in Africa more than anywhere else in the word, the middle east looks peacful compared to it. But Africa is a mess for it's own topic.

 

Anyway America may not be right about everything, but I highly doubt there is such thing as a country that put's aside it's needs for all the worlds problems, as America may seem to claim. But if we wanted to be war mongers then we could do much worse. The U.S. isn't one mind, and one bevahoir pattern througout history, it's constanlty changing and there will be good and bad.

 

The U.S. new motto; "We don't touture people for fun"

[Malchik]

People talk of democracy as if it were the ideal form of government. There are two things to bear in mind. Firstly the kind of government most prevalent in western society, a form of but certainly not true democracy, has developed over hundreds of years. It evolved as the society did. To impose it on a country or society that has not evolved to want/need it is doomed to failure. There are countless examples in the world at the moment.

 

Secondly, and in my view more importantly, are we saying the form of government we have reached is the ultimate? Why should it have stopped evolving? That we cannot see now how it might be in 2100 is hardly surprising but to trumpet our imperfect ideals as what the world should be aiming for is ignorant, hypocritical and blinkered.

 

As ever in history, a country's government exhorts the population to look at other countries as threats when it does not want them to look internally on its own failings. When the US has a true working democracy that benefits all those who live there, then let it show by example how it can work.

[Darnoc]

No, democracy as it is today isn't the final solution and it will never be. Also not capitalism and communism. All the time someone comes up with a new idea, which combines elements of older ideas and so he creates something new. Also not everything which is good for us is good for everyone. Look at Russia. I don't think that most people there appreciate the state of their country at the moment. Some even say it was better when the communists ruled. And in arabian countries the people want back the old times when they were ruled by the Sharia, the law of the Coran. Even when some of the laws written there sound horrible in our ears, the people there want them back. Somehow it gives them the feeling of safety. Just look at the crime-rate of Sharia-countries: Almost zero. And the USA has one of the highest crime rates in the world. So, what is better for the people: A strict religious rule or a free democracy? In a little country like Switzerland or Austrich direct democracy is working very good. But in a big country like Russia or China it causes lots of trouble. Even the USA don't have such a direct democracy as Switzerland, it's because democracy needs a huge apparat of bureaucracy.

 

I think we shouldn't involve in those other countries and try to force them to something they don't want. When they ask for our humanitary help, then I see no problem, why we shouldn't do it. But we can't just invade a country politicaly, economicaly or militaricaly and force them to our way of life.

[Akrid]

Secondly, and in my view more importantly, are we saying the form of government we have reached is the ultimate? Why should it have stopped evolving? That we cannot see now how it might be in 2100 is hardly surprising but to trumpet our imperfect ideals as what the world should be aiming for is ignorant, hypocritical and blinkered.

 

True and I'm afraid all the old powerfull political leader's arn't intrested in hearing about a diffrent form a goverment, they'll see it as a threat to the current balance, but in by trying to maintain this balance may be the undoing of the nation. Inforcing democracy may not be a great idea everywhere, but it shure beats a dicatorship, what other form of goverment would be better for say afganistan and iraq?

[Malchik]

I'm not sure that dictatorship isn't occasionally needed in any society. But there are levels of dictatorship. The worst that a dictator does is to eliminate those who disagree. This may be by having them killed or by imprisoning them without rights. Isn't the latter just what Bush is doing? Maybe I'm missing something. Now Bush maybe a couple of trumpets short of an orchestra but the good thing is he has a finite term of office. What bothers me is that the rest of the American people aren't saying 'hey, this infringes everything we have fought wars over?'.

 

I can hazard a guess that it is democracy in Europe and parts of Asia that come closest to the ideals (though still some way off). In the US, the country has had far less time to evolve and there is an element of imposition of democracy on the previous social control - rule by the gun. These two cultures clash and they have not yet been resolved in the US. Perhaps this resolution will lead to a new way forward. It may not be progress, of course. Society evolution has never been all progression. Whatever emerges, the goverment will be suitable for the US not the rest of the world.

 

Do people really not understand that democracy does not work in societies that are tribal and in many ways still feudal.

 

Also, before you criticise dictators from a US viewpoint, which counrty was it that set them up in all the sovereign states of Central America? Give you one guess.

 

I like American people but their naivety frightens me. Acrid, you have seen the world, you should be able to look at your fellow countrymen with less blinkered vision than many. 'It works for us so it must be right for the rest of you' is not an informed educated way of approaching a problem.

 

Anyhow, I don't want to rant. It's a New Year. Let's all wish for peace!