U.S got Saddam

[Malchik]

If this gets any hotter it is going into terminal decline! There may be issues worth debating but can we move to the issues not the individuals.

 

Shakkara, I happen to agree with your point about US hypocrisy. However on humanitarian grounds for the Iraqi people themselves it would be wrong simply to pull out. We have distorted the balance of power and to walk out leaves a vacuum that would, as I said before IMO, lead to an internal bloodbath. That will result in the death of thousands of innocent Iraqis. It is our fault and I accept we should not be there but we cannot simply pull out. That we will lose soldiers, equally innocent, is a price we have to pay for interfering but killing more to get them to leave through public pressure is no way forward for Iraq.

 

I have a fear that the US will attempt to pull out and leave other nations to try to salvage what they can from the US's disastrous error of judgement (in which the UK cannot be absolved either.)

 

More soldiers will die because of what the US decided to do. The blame however is with the politicians not the soldiers. What we should be looking for is a rapid return to Iraqi rule in Iraq with other foreign powers, especially the US, out of the picture. In particular the US needs to get out of the oil fields. It is my view that until the US changes their attitude to the rest of the world and ceases to interfere for purely national advantages, the number of terrorist atrocities will continue to rise. But the blame for those lies with the politicians too.

[Akrid]

More soldiers will die because of what the US decided to do. The blame however is with the politicians not the soldiers. What we should be looking for is a rapid return to Iraqi rule in Iraq with other foreign powers, especially the US, out of the picture. In particular the US needs to get out of the oil fields. It is my view that until the US changes their attitude to the rest of the world and ceases to interfere for purely national advantages, the number of terrorist atrocities will continue to rise. But the blame for those lies with the politicians too.

 

I agree with most everything there. As for the terrorist threats rising, true they will regardless of what desions America or the U.N. make. however I don't see that as a detorant for future millitary actions so much as the cause for them. And the greater the act of terror the greater the response. I could see all reason for war boiling right down to they hit us so we hit them. If these terrorist want to threaten America with acts of terror, then the wars become hate wars, we hate each other because we kill each other. I don't think there is anything we can do to stop this really, boths side are instigators and want to see each other wiped from the board.

[Malchik]

I know what you mean, Acrid. These things are never simply one-sided. But in this particular case there is no evidence at all for saying that Iraq was behind the terrorist attacks on the US. That was an excuse for invasion. (You can see how this might prompt a conspiracy theory.) It would be like saying that if the boy next door kept trying to bully you, it gave you the right to go and thump a stand-offish but otherwise independent neighbour. Given the relative sizes and power of the US and Iraq it is hard to believe anything other than the US was the bully in the first place. But all this talk of should/shouldn't, your fault/my fault is of historical interest. The best we can hope to do is learn from it. My disagreement with Shakkara is on what we should do now, not what we shouldn't have done then.

[Shakkara]

Buddy, I think you've got some problems if the only way you think a problem should be resolved is through violence.

That is absolutely not what I am thinking.

 

So tell me, at what point do you think the killing should stop? Do those soldiers deserve to die because they're just following orders? If America pulled out of Iraq, do you think acts of terrorism in the States should increase, just to drive the point further that we're an evil nation? Would you want the whole bloody lot of us dead, before you'd ever consider we've had enough?

I think I have been quite clear, once you have been outside your borders to commit acts of violence upon others you are a viable target. If the other nation retaliates by doing the same then they are wrong and viable targets too.

 

And kill people to make a living, that is just plain sick, and those bastards deserve to die for that.

 

I have a friend who happens to be a soldier. A MP in the 63Oth MP Company unit, currently stationed in Germany.

 

Am I to understand that because she couldn't pay her bills, she deserves to die.

Not because she couldn't pay her bills, but rather because she didn't choose a proper job to get an income from instead.

 

Because I'm not sure what rock you're living under, but people don't just join the military to kill people. I'm -quite- sure she didn't. Typically it's to pay for college, pay the bills, or to just plain try and do something with your life. You'll learn the skills, of course, but the last time I checked being a soldier doesn't mean you get to shoot people for fifty bucks a head.

Of course not, however it indicates you are WILLING to murder people. It's almost comparable to executioners. They have a chance to be responsable for someone's death and they get paid for it. Of couse perhaps they never kill anyone, who knows...

 

I never typically outright flame, but you, Shakkara, have some issues.

No, the majority of this planet has some serious issues.

[Akrid]

Perhaps the reason for the war wasn't as pure as bush would like everyone to believe, maybe it was for his political gain and covering his mess ups but Bush did not make the desion alone. I think there where many reasons to invade Iraq and some where valid. Sadam was a butcher, there is no denying that, that is no cover up, the U.S. did not pawn Sadam into mudering people on television. I personaly don't know if a invasion was a good idea either, it certianly has it's repercusions(sp?) But despite what the goverment wanted the people of America wanted to liberate iraq. I have studied for years about that country and what Sadam has done to people, he was a murderous dictator. Iraq wasn't the main source of terrorism, that wasn't the reason for invasion, the reason was (and I hesitate to say) weapons of mass destruction. I personaly am %100 aganst Nukes, and not in favor of other biological and chemical weapons either. While no weapons of mass destruction where found (damnit!) the cause was good, maybe jumping the gun though. If I called the shots I would always hold out hope for peacfull negotiations, America's last real defensive war was with the British, (pearl harbor was revenge and I hate what happened to Japan) America will attack other countries somtimes when they present a threat and somtimes for revenge, Iraq was a mixture of both reasons. Lets face it Sadam was a tyrant and with Nukes he would use them, that is why I would justify a invasion, I believe using nukes as a detorant from the U.S. was just a way to do what ever sick s^!t he wanted to and not be attacked. I however believe a invasion was the wrong way to do it. I would have given a reasonable chance to dethrone himself and upon his refusal special forces (not the fresh out of high school never been in combat kiddie type, but the ones that are active all the time you never hear about :ph34r: ) would take him out and his sons and look-alikes. But it has already begun, the remaining terrorist in Iraq will be eliminated or used and invading forces will prevale in building a new civilized Iraq

[Curt Sibling]

The Allies got Saddam?

Well great.

 

But is it such a big deal?

The Iraqis have merely swapped one gang of heavily-armed authority figures for another.

 

Still won't repair the bitterness, from Allied or Iraqi factions.

 

Still won't bring our hundreds of dead grenadiers or Iraq's thousands of dead civvies back to life.

 

Still won't provide a convincing Allied exit strategy.

 

Bottom line?

 

I cannot see any good to come from the whole benighted situation.

 

Rotten despot.

Rotten war.

Rotten aftermath.

 

:shifty:

[Akrid]

We'll see, that's all I'll say.

 

I thought that would be fitting here, after all the invasion isn't complete, where still finding things. Nobody ca say it's sensless untill you see what becomes of it, and it's not done :construction: work in progress ok?

[Curt Sibling]

"Looting in progress" I would deem it, but that is just me.

 

B)

[Akrid]

Looting? from a mad man, sure I would too. however Americans are not breaking into Iraqi homes and looting them. I would know, I am U.S. military.

[Ancalagon]

I would know, I am U.S. military

 

 

:o ! GADS! A doughboy! A duckfoot! A.....soldier..<_<

 

Regardless of what Saddam has done, and his legacy of pain and death. I feel pity for him, the way he was being examined and such, you could see it in his eyes that he was defeated (even if he won't admit it) I pity him, he lost both of his sons (regardless of how bad they were) and now he is alone and facing possible death. Not to say that he doesn't deserve it, but I am reminded of what Gandalf said to Frodo, concerning Gollum

 

"Deserves it! I daresay he does. Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to him? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement."

 

Just my 2 cents...