End of ages, time of the ghost warriors

[devinpatterson]

The distance between GFlagstaff and Zion is 153 miles; LV is 100 miles. The distance to Denver is 232 miles; and the distance to Salt Lake City is about 350 miles. The distance to the Mexican border is about 260 miles, but are there any majore powers there? Really, the Legion could walk right through Arizona, and Mexico is hardly ever mentioned in Fallout. A lack of mention implies a lack of information; the Legion's presence in Mexico is, for the most part, open to interpretation.

Again, the advantages outweigh the disadvantages. A plausible blank slate is better than a fully developed chalkboard.

 

But we don't have to guess, we can find out. That's why I said lets do some research. The other thing is, I'm not really seeing any advantages that you mention other than the fact that you'd like it to be there. If you could bring me up to speed on why it' would be better than the mojave area maybe I'd understand better why you want it in Mexico.

[devinpatterson]

BTW what do you guys think of rage? I love the graphics, the visual environments they have post apocalyptic are right on.....but the missions themselves kinda suck. Oh and the racing is pissing me off. Can't understand why they won't allow you to use a mouse/trackball. Guess i'll have to dig out hte xbox controller. Edited October 7, 2011 by devinpatterson

[TrooperScooperMKII]

Greek fire.

 

I'm picturing a reverse Hoover Dam scenario where th Legion rushed south to secure an oil refinery/American military base, so they could begin developing an incendiary weapon. The NCR would initially have common cause with the locals (they don't like getting burned either) but the split would likely occur after the base fell- the NCR would have to be convinced to abandon/destroy some of the tech, especially the Greek Fire.

[devinpatterson]

Well looked at some info on hte legion. Looks like they have a heavy presence in Salt Lake City. As far as NV I can't get any info on whether they have a significant presence in the northern part of the state. I'm guessing they probably have a fair amount of troops in the north eastern side where as the north western side is contested much like the it is in the southern part of the state (our Mojave/NV area). They a significant presence in east UT though, especially around the salt lake area. Doesn't look like any evidence for them extending past southern AZ/NM and it looks like the Desert Rangers (allied with NCR )in AZ are still active/resisting.

 

In the wiki page on the Texas commonwealth it lists Caeser as moving east of Texas after the 1st battle of hoover dam, plus he wasn't in BOS where Attis was and Cheveyo traveled from. It looks like Oklahoma, Kansas and Nebraska where the scene of FO tactics and the war with the Calculator as well as heavy super mutant occupation as they moved east from the west coast after the Master's defeat. The Midwestern Brotherhood of Steel is active in those states. The legion don't seem to have any presence.

 

So.......from what little I can tell it looks like (and this going to be a gross oversimplification) the legion's territory is the four corners states with AZ being their seat of power/strongest concentration. That's assuming I didn't miss any pertinent info, since the Van buren, tactics and rpg info is pretty scattered and random.

 

So I was thinking of having the location within 200(ish) miles of the mojave. Moving around north of new vegas, into the southern parts of NV & UT using the Zion area and dipping into northern AZ when the conflict with the legion really picks up in the mod. Partly because of lore, but also because it's an area I feel would go well with the story, and it's the area I have a little knowledge of. Plus as a bonus (to us, not them) the AZ tribe survivors (from mid to northern half of hte state) would be pushed west and north allowing us to concentrate the AZ, NV and UT tribes into the area we are discussing. Between tribes that survived the war (large populations in un-nuked reservations) and fictional tribal groups we would have a lot of lore to work with. Of course many of the reservations were adsorbed along with the other tribals by the legion so now they are nomadic tribes carrying out the resistance, but they would still be fighting near those areas to retrieve their homelands. There would also be friction from already established groups weather native american tribes or FO tribals as displaced tribes enter their territory. That can provide us with quests to defeat/ally or otherwise assuage the encroachment.

 

 

 

But I don't want to give you the wrong impression, I think the Mexico idea is great, it just doesn't fit with the Native American nations I had in mind. But if you want to develop an mod based south of the boarder there is a little bit of info on Mexico City, mostly in regard to it being a giant cesspool of bandits. And I'd help you with any time I could spare.

 

Greek fire.

 

I'm picturing a reverse Hoover Dam scenario where th Legion rushed south to secure an oil refinery/American military base, so they could begin developing an incendiary weapon. The NCR would initially have common cause with the locals (they don't like getting burned either) but the split would likely occur after the base fell- the NCR would have to be convinced to abandon/destroy some of the tech, especially the Greek Fire.

 

Refineries are always an interesting setting. They evoke a mad max'esq atmosphere in my mind. Damn shame we don't have vehicles in FO....maybe in FO4 (perhaps Bethesda will use ID's new engine, since they'r in bed now).

 

So are we talking real refineries, not little wasteland operations? There are 5 in Utah (around salt lake) and 1 in Nevada (about middle of the state north to south, near the eastern boarder). A ton of refineries in CA, but we can assume the NCR hold that territory. All of those are much further away then is convenient. So I think we may have to create a fictional one. Maybe in southern Utah, but not actually in Zion, Fishlake or Glen Canyon Nat parks. Plus in the fallout world, it makes sense that they would probably be more numerous (energy starved and all).

 

I think the greek fire would be a great weapon to inspire terror. Perhaps when the salting the earth phase begins it's used against villages to burn men, woman and children alive. It's kind of low tech, say in comparison even to a dirty bomb, but it would be a horrible way to die.

 

On a similar note, can you think of any kind of "super weapon" of use against gorilla warfare tactics? On the wiki under Counter-guerrilla warfare the only tactics seem to be; destroy the land and the people, high mobility and greater intelligence. So I'm thinking a super weapon would have to be;

mass destruction (biological/chemical/radiological), high mobility (unlikely with the legion) or intelligence. I was thinking control of a satallite might fit the bill for the last one. For the first FEV and other biological weapons seem controversial to teh legion and their view of tech. Radiological (dirty bombs and nukes) on the other hand they don't seem to have a problem with. Seems like it would be nearly impossible to target a small, hidden, highly mobile group with a bomb unless they were lead into a trap. So the nukes might be better used in the salting the earth segment of the mod.

Edited October 8, 2011 by devinpatterson

[MojaveMike]

The plots fine, but please remove the Fallout: BOS reference.

[devinpatterson]

The plots fine, but please remove the Fallout: BOS reference.

 

Why would you want to do that?

[MojaveMike]

The plots fine, but please remove the Fallout: BOS reference.

 

Why would you want to do that?

Because BOS is a shitty non canon game.

[TrooperScooperMKII]

 

So are we talking real refineries, not little wasteland operations? There are 5 in Utah (around salt lake) and 1 in Nevada (about middle of the state north to south, near the eastern boarder). A ton of refineries in CA, but we can assume the NCR hold that territory. All of those are much further away then is convenient. So I think we may have to create a fictional one. Maybe in southern Utah, but not actually in Zion, Fishlake or Glen Canyon Nat parks. Plus in the fallout world, it makes sense that they would probably be more numerous (energy starved and all).

REAL refineries... perhaps a Great Salt Lake Poseidon rig for the finale?

 

I think the greek fire would be a great weapon to inspire terror. Perhaps when the salting the earth phase begins it's used against villages to burn men, woman and children alive. It's kind of low tech, say in comparison even to a dirty bomb, but it would be a horrible way to die.

"Low tech" or not, greek fire is/was a SUPER WEAPON. It burned on (and even under) water- some sources say it would "flare up" i.e. explode if you poured water on it)was used to great effect in naval battles (>1800 degrees Fahrenheight!), deployed in proto-flamethrowers and pottery grenades on land and sea, soaked into cloth and rapped around catapulted projectiles, etc. The process was heavily compartmentalized- the composition is enigmatic to this day, and was so bizarre/imposing to foreign observers that it became a byword for any incendiary device and was believed to be a proto-gunpowder (now debunked) in the 19th century.

Dirty bombs would be relatively useless, IMO. Really, how much more irradiated can Falloutworld get? :nuke:

 

On a similar note, can you think of any kind of "super weapon" of use against gorilla warfare tactics? On the wiki under Counter-guerrilla warfare the only tactics seem to be; destroy the land and the people, high mobility and greater intelligence. So I'm thinking a super weapon would have to be;

mass destruction (biological/chemical/radiological), high mobility (unlikely with the legion) or intelligence. I was thinking control of a satallite might fit the bill for the last one. For the first FEV and other biological weapons seem controversial to teh legion and their view of tech. Radiological (dirty bombs and nukes) on the other hand they don't seem to have a problem with. Seems like it would be nearly impossible to target a small, hidden, highly mobile group with a bomb unless they were lead into a trap. So the nukes might be better used in the salting the earth segment of the mod.

Napalm Greek fire bombing, (hydrogen?) balloons carrying incendiary bombs, burn burn burn, demoralize the enemy with fear, famine and sleep deprivation, poison (or firebomb :devil: ) their wells to roast them when they go to fetch water, generally undermine morale and destroy the will to fight while keeping Legion forces close to home where they belong. This includes salting the earth by ravaging/raiding potential food/supplies for locals (take what you can, burn/booby trap the rest) while consolidating/isolating their main bases to force a desperate and ill-equipped resistance to launch an assault on a fortified legion stronghold, etc.

 

 

Perhaps seismic/geological equipment from the refinery, to detect footfalls etc? I can see the legion drilling bunkers/tunnel networks between their bases... maybe even a reverse vietnam scenario, only with napalm to detonate beneath the enemy's feet...

[TrooperScooperMKII]

Also NCR is in Reno, and AFAIK New Vegas is as close as they get to the Legion.

[devinpatterson]

REAL refineries... perhaps a Great Salt Lake Poseidon rig for the finale?

 

Yeah that would be an interesting finale, especially difficult for the tribe since they wouldn't be able to use their strengths (mobility, stealth, ambush) to their full advantage. But then again that's where the player could come in....

It would be even better if there was something keeping the nightkin out. Even if it was something simple like the doors being too small for them. That would focus the emphasis on the player (and possibly some war party companions) as the pivotal part of the battle.

 

And of course the graphics with fire everywhere would be awesome. I wonder how many fire effects we could have going before it starts to drag on the average players pc.

 

 

"Low tech" or not, greek fire is/was a SUPER WEAPON.

 

I wasn't knocking it, just saying by comparison (with a world that has lasers and plasma weapons) it was low tech. That's not a bad thing, being low tech means it' more acceptable to the legion than say some sort of biological agent (like FEV). But I don't think it qualifies as a super weapon (in the respect I was looking for) vs guerilla fighters simply because it suffers from the same disadvantage as conventional ordinance (you can't hit what you can't see).

 

So like incinerators ala enclave for ground troops? Or were you thinking large scale deployment? That might be a little tricky, without aircraft. Maybe just have the results show (ie after the greek fire has lit a place up) and leave the "how" of the deployment vague? Like the player comes across a raging inferno of a village, but you never actually see it being engulfed just the after effects. If we go this way we don't have to explain large scale deployment. Or should we just assume the legion comes in with incenerators and do the dirty work on foot. That could be good too, because stopping a village being raised would be a high adrenalin encounter, flames everywhere trying to put down legion while civilians are in the crossfire.

 

Dirty bombs would be relatively useless, IMO. Really, how much more irradiated can Falloutworld get? :nuke:

 

Camp Searchlight is a good example of what the effects of a dirty bomb would be. It's not the exact same, but the final results would be similar. So they can be very effective. And in addition they can be pretty fun (for us, not so much for the tribals/legion). Because it can leave the tribal parallel of marked men. And since they'r feral/aggressive they will have to be taken out. Plus the player will probably be the one to do it, since the war party is going to have problems shooting ghoulified relatives.....no one wants to put a slug in zombie grandma's head.

 

Also, no reason that a dirty bomb can't be a mission on the "good" side. For instance prevent a legion group from setting of a dirty bomb in a village, recover dirty bomb, infiltrate legion base, plant dirty bomb and get out.

 

Napalm Greek fire bombing, (hydrogen?) balloons carrying incendiary bombs, burn burn burn, demoralize the enemy with fear, famine and sleep deprivation, poison (or firebomb :devil: ) their wells to roast them when they go to fetch water, generally undermine morale and destroy the will to fight while keeping Legion forces close to home where they belong. This includes salting the earth by ravaging/raiding potential food/supplies for locals (take what you can, burn/booby trap the rest) while consolidating/isolating their main bases to force a desperate and ill-equipped resistance to launch an assault on a fortified legion stronghold, etc.

 

Sure and that will come in the 2nd half of the mod, but I'd like a super weapon that is a threat to the war party earlier in the first half of the mod. It has to be useful against a highly mobile, covert force. Maybe I should use a better term, super weapon implies mass destruction which would be useless against guerrilla warfare without knowledge of their location. But something that will negate the war party's advantages, which are typically (so wiki says) things like, stealth, mobility, special small group tactics (amushes, hit and run etc).

 

The hunter sent near the middle is an example of a counter tactic, but I'd like another one if we can figure it out. I don't think the legion will be able to increase mobility so that's out. They could have a special tactics group, a elite force that is more flexible then typical legionaries. The other alternative would be intelligence, whether from spies on the ground or technology.

 

This would be a perfect mod for horses. But barring that how about mounted on brahmin? They could even be a different variant. Say with some hair, and larger/faster. Maybe like bramalo's. This would really give the war party an advantage. I'm not saying there weren't great runners in the southwestern tribes. Quite the contrary, the apaches could run 70 miles a day for several days. But the legion is composed of very physically fit individuals as well and the brahmin could be the war party's ace in the hole. Illyism gave me permission to use his rideable creatures script and hopefully that can be made to work with npc's too.

 

Too bad we don't have bows. But I do have permission to use crossbows from a mod author and those are great stealth weapons. Plus the war party can use silenced firearms, tomahawks etc.

 

Also they should have dogs. But not just any dogs. They may be smaller (less effective than the legion hounds in combat), but much faster, quieter etc. Making a good match for the war party.

 

 

Also NCR is in Reno, and AFAIK New Vegas is as close as they get to the Legion.

 

Sorry, spaced on the significance of Reno, what is it in reference to?