End of ages, time of the ghost warriors

[TrooperScooperMKII]

I was just throwing Reno out there...

And aren't tunnels with flamethrowers a super weapon? I agree, the buildup to village torching time would be insane.

Basically, the "superweapon" would be the unyielding fear that legion spies had planted incendiary bombs in wells and/or will torch two villages in the time it takes to walk between them. So burning villages, exploding water sources (hardcore would be insane, water prices would be through the roof....) and an intangible specter of Legion pyromaniacs waiting in the wings, culminating in the sudden emergence of an underground Legion fire squad in a well populated settlement.

 

Also smoke can cloud out some of the fires. Maybe the entire lake can be set ablaze.

PYROOMAAANNIIAA!!!!!!!!!

is fun! :devil:

[TrooperScooperMKII]

Yeah that would be an interesting finale, especially difficult for the tribe since they wouldn't be able to use their strengths (mobility, stealth, ambush) to their full advantage. But then again that's where the player could come in....

It would be even better if there was something keeping the nightkin out. Even if it was something simple like the doors being too small for them. That would focus the emphasis on the player (and possibly some war party companions) as the pivotal part of the battle.

 

And of course the graphics with fire everywhere would be awesome. I wonder how many fire effects we could have going before it starts to drag on the average players pc.

 

Well, a "haze" of smoke around a burning lake might do it... the trick IMO is using perception etc. to make the most out of simple widescale patterns..

 

I wasn't knocking it, just saying by comparison (with a world that has lasers and plasma weapons) it was low tech. That's not a bad thing, being low tech means it' more acceptable to the legion than say some sort of biological agent (like FEV). But I don't think it qualifies as a super weapon (in the respect I was looking for) vs guerilla fighters simply because it suffers from the same disadvantage as conventional ordinance (you can't hit what you can't see).

Sorry, yeah, it is low tech. But low tech can still be a super weapon- heck, even fear can be a super weapon, depending on how you use it. I don't know about you, but if I'm fighting a war against fight-to-the-death troops in tunnel networks beneath my feet, wielding a fire-starter capable of exploding the water in a well and virtually impossible to quench (imagine a village having its well bombed in that manner... imagine no Legion soldier ever being seen before this happens)... I'm terrified of that enemy, and if this goes on, the religious side of me might start preaching about the wrath of a god.

 

So like incinerators ala enclave for ground troops? Or were you thinking large scale deployment? That might be a little tricky, without aircraft. Maybe just have the results show (ie after the greek fire has lit a place up) and leave the "how" of the deployment vague? Like the player comes across a raging inferno of a village, but you never actually see it being engulfed just the after effects. If we go this way we don't have to explain large scale deployment. Or should we just assume the legion comes in with incenerators and do the dirty work on foot. That could be good too, because stopping a village being raised would be a high adrenalin encounter, flames everywhere trying to put down legion while civilians are in the crossfire.

Landmines, tunneled beneath the enemy and detonated at leisure.

 

 

Camp Searchlight is a good example of what the effects of a dirty bomb would be. It's not the exact same, but the final results would be similar. So they can be very effective. And in addition they can be pretty fun (for us, not so much for the tribals/legion). Because it can leave the tribal parallel of marked men. And since they'r feral/aggressive they will have to be taken out. Plus the player will probably be the one to do it, since the war party is going to have problems shooting ghoulified relatives.....no one wants to put a slug in zombie grandma's head.

That could work, yes... perhaps a (nominally) Legion controlled waste site could be raided/destroyed by the tribals?

 

Maybe I should use a better term, super weapon implies mass destruction which would be useless against guerrilla warfare without knowledge of their location. But something that will negate the war party's advantages, which are typically (so wiki says) things like, stealth, mobility, special small group tactics (amushes, hit and run etc).

 

The hunter sent near the middle is an example of a counter tactic, but I'd like another one if we can figure it out. I don't think the legion will be able to increase mobility so that's out. They could have a special tactics group, a elite force that is more flexible then typical legionaries. The other alternative would be intelligence, whether from spies on the ground or technology.

 

This would be a perfect mod for horses. But barring that how about mounted on brahmin? They could even be a different variant. Say with some hair, and larger/faster. Maybe like bramalo's. This would really give the war party an advantage. I'm not saying there weren't great runners in the southwestern tribes. Quite the contrary, the apaches could run 70 miles a day for several days. But the legion is composed of very physically fit individuals as well and the brahmin could be the war party's ace in the hole. Illyism gave me permission to use his rideable creatures script and hopefully that can be made to work with npc's too.

Rideable creatures would be great for the locals, possibly the legion. Though they do seem more the ninja infiltration type to me...

Anyway, perhaps an underground seismic surveillance system? IE tracking the movements of living things of a certain size, so the tunneling flame brigade (hell-somethings, Hades? underground, unquenchable flames, screams demons) and/or raiding parties (surface or subterranean) know where to go to meet/avoid the enemy. That could be something the player would have to face- imagine going into those hell-tunnels (incognito or otherwise) to find and disable the sensors...

 

Too bad we don't have bows. But I do have permission to use crossbows from a mod author and those are great stealth weapons. Plus the war party can use silenced firearms, tomahawks etc.

 

CROSSBOWS! I was hoping someone would make them, they are indeed perfect for stealth sniping!

 

Also they should have dogs. But not just any dogs. They may be smaller (less effective than the legion hounds in combat), but much faster, quieter etc. Making a good match for the war party.

again, good idea.

Sorry, spaced on the significance of Reno, what is it in reference to?

no significance, sorrry. I was just throiwing it out there.

[devinpatterson]

Sorry, yeah, it is low tech. But low tech can still be a super weapon- heck, even fear can be a super weapon, depending on how you use it. I don't know about you, but if I'm fighting a war against fight-to-the-death troops in tunnel networks beneath my feet, wielding a fire-starter capable of exploding the water in a well and virtually impossible to quench (imagine a village having its well bombed in that manner... imagine no Legion soldier ever being seen before this happens)... I'm terrified of that enemy, and if this goes on, the religious side of me might start preaching about the wrath of a god.

 

Landmines, tunneled beneath the enemy and detonated at leisure.

 

Well the problem with the tunneling is your talking about a opponent (the war party) that may spend very little time in any one location. It could be in a spot for only hours or days before moving to another one, as their mobility is their defense. So not only do you not have enough time to dig a tunnel, you don't even know where to tunnel too.

 

Doesn't mean though, that you couldn't have tunnels inside legion fortifications if you like, although I'm not sure they'd be all that useful since the war party probably doesn't attack large fortifications (it doesn't play to their strengths). The same goes for a trap, you could have the legion set up tunnels in an area to trap the tribe, but I'm not sure it would be more effective than simply burying landmines in the area. But tunnels could be a good challenge for the player, since we can have the above ground forts and then make him/her go down into the subterranean level when clearing the legion from their base.

 

 

 

Camp Searchlight is a good example of what the effects of a dirty bomb would be. It's not the exact same, but the final results would be similar. So they can be very effective. And in addition they can be pretty fun (for us, not so much for the tribals/legion). Because it can leave the tribal parallel of marked men. And since they'r feral/aggressive they will have to be taken out. Plus the player will probably be the one to do it, since the war party is going to have problems shooting ghoulified relatives.....no one wants to put a slug in zombie grandma's head.

 

That could work, yes... perhaps a (nominally) Legion controlled waste site could be raided/destroyed by the tribals?

 

Sorry, a Legion controlled waste site? My brains a little slow at the moment, could you run that by me again?

 

 

Rideable creatures would be great for the locals, possibly the legion. Though they do seem more the ninja infiltration type to me...

 

Yeah I'd hate to give the legin mounts for a few reasons. 1. because it would wipe out one of the war party's biggest advantages, mobility. They need that for hit and run maneuvers, retreat before legion reinforcements, the ability to relocate their base of operations etc. Plus they need to get a lead on legion forces so they can "disappear" into the land, otherwise legion forces can just follow them back to their bases. 2. it goes against lore for the legion, they seem to have settled on a modified roman foot soldier model, since we never see them use any mounts.

 

That being said if your really into the idea of legionary mounts we could probably hammer out a scenario where commanders or a small special legionary corp could use them. Perhaps they are the superweapon that needs to be destroyed. But for us it's probably easier to just say they don't. What are your thoughts?

 

It would be awesome to use large mutant wolves as mounts (worgs)? Worgs would probably be crossing the line lorewise, so we probably shoudn't....but wolf riders sound so much cooler than brahmin. Still we can dress the brahmin up, maybe metal shod horns, light leather and salved armor, war paint etc. Something to give them a ferocious appearance. Won't be great for camouflage but visually it will make an impression.

 

Anyway, perhaps an underground seismic surveillance system? IE tracking the movements of living things of a certain size, so the tunneling flame brigade (hell-somethings, Hades? underground, unquenchable flames, screams demons) and/or raiding parties (surface or subterranean) know where to go to meet/avoid the enemy. That could be something the player would have to face- imagine going into those hell-tunnels (incognito or otherwise) to find and disable the sensors...

 

Yeah that's a possibility, or a satellite. I still feel like there is something even better in that same category (military intelligence/monitoring) that we are missing though. So if you have any additional ideas send them my way.

 

CROSSBOWS! I was hoping someone would make them, they are indeed perfect for stealth sniping!

 

Yeah they'll be fun, and when the "stealth" part of a raid is up they can be the war party's heavy ordinance. Strap a few sticks of dynamite on there and let them fly. As I don't intend to have the tribals using fatmans, missle launchers etc the crossbow will probably be their only standard ranged explosive weapon.

 

But I do see them as having brush guns, cowboy repeaters, hunting rifles and other firearms taken from the legion. I'm not so sure about some of the other recovered weapons I saw during the hoover dam battles, like the thermic lance, but I think those are pretty rare (like just the centurions, and decanii). One of the quests could also be "liberating" a legion armory for the growing number of war party's (I'd assume the tribes will probably split up and work semi-independantly rather than a single giant force, since they have to live off the land and leave the smallest footprint possible, militarily speaking......but that's just conjecture).

 

BTW liked the van burn concept art of a the chariot (around 4 pages up from the bottom).

[devinpatterson]

The plots fine, but please remove the Fallout: BOS reference.

 

Why would you want to do that?

Because BOS is a shitty non canon game.

 

Ah, I see. Yeah I never really got a chance to play it so I couldn't say one way or the other. But the wiki says even though it's not canon it can be used as flavor. And that's all were really doing here. Basically it just involves the nightkin army under Attis. Plus it has a full time stealth suit instead of the nightkins using stealthboys, and that helps because we want the tribal nightkin to *always* be hidden. They don't want to be seen and we want them to be as mysterious as possible for the player.

[TrooperScooperMKII]

 

Well the problem with the tunneling is your talking about a opponent (the war party) that may spend very little time in any one location. It could be in a spot for only hours or days before moving to another one, as their mobility is their defense. So not only do you not have enough time to dig a tunnel, you don't even know where to tunnel too.

Doesn't mean though, that you couldn't have tunnels inside legion fortifications if you like, although I'm not sure they'd be all that useful since the war party probably doesn't attack large fortifications (it doesn't play to their strengths). The same goes for a trap, you could have the legion set up tunnels in an area to trap the tribe, but I'm not sure it would be more effective than simply burying landmines in the area. But tunnels could be a good challenge for the player, since we can have the above ground forts and then make him/her go down into the subterranean level when clearing the legion from their base.

 

 

True, I viewed the tunnels as more of a viet Cong transport system- being underground would keep their supplies free of raiding parties and generally make them appear as if from nowhere... troops you thought were a hundred miles away show up late at night and roast your village.

Though the land mine thing is a better plan, at least for the open conflicts. I was simply suggesting that the Legion (with their rather large collection of pre-war mining/drilling implements + slave laborers) would have no trouble at all in digging miles of underground tunnels to link their main bases. An Underground railroad, literally...

 

Sorry, a Legion controlled waste site? My brains a little slow at the moment, could you run that by me again?

"waste site may not be tghe best word, I mean a source of fission materia/radioactive waste.

 

Yeah I'd hate to give the legin mounts for a few reasons. 1. because it would wipe out one of the war party's biggest advantages, mobility. They need that for hit and run maneuvers, retreat before legion reinforcements, the ability to relocate their base of operations etc. Plus they need to get a lead on legion forces so they can "disappear" into the land, otherwise legion forces can just follow them back to their bases. 2. it goes against lore for the legion, they seem to have settled on a modified roman foot soldier model, since we never see them use any mounts.

 

That being said if your really into the idea of legionary mounts we could probably hammer out a scenario where commanders or a small special legionary corp could use them. Perhaps they are the superweapon that needs to be destroyed. But for us it's probably easier to just say they don't. What are your thoughts?

 

It would be awesome to use large mutant wolves as mounts (worgs)? Worgs would probably be crossing the line lorewise, so we probably shoudn't....but wolf riders sound so much cooler than brahmin. Still we can dress the brahmin up, maybe metal shod horns, light leather and salved armor, war paint etc. Something to give them a ferocious appearance. Won't be great for camouflage but visually it will make an impression.

Wolves are cool! I also agree, mounts for he legion would be rare.. maybe a motorcycle/vehicle with a mounted turret/raiding party? at most, but that's about it.

[devinpatterson]

Wolves are cool! I also agree, mounts for he legion would be rare.. maybe a motorcycle/vehicle with a mounted turret/raiding party? at most, but that's about it.

 

You know.....we could expand on the "mother earth, one with the land" theme even more, similar to Avatar. Where the animals are really the key to the tribes success. We already have the mounts which are their mobility. But what if they had other animal compatriots? Say crows that spotted troop movements, big horners that acted as their heavy calvary, spore plants as sentries/defenses, molerats that were their sapper/miners, wolves (could have multiple jobs; scout, support, light harassing corp) etc.

 

EDIT: Should mention, not a mystical/magical connection with the animals like Avatar, just animal training husbandry that rarely practiced outside the tribe. But the tribe believes (and portrays) it as facet of their religion and a passing of favor by their ancestors/Gaia.

Edited October 10, 2011 by devinpatterson

[TrooperScooperMKII]

So, is the exact locale nailed down yet? I assume Mexico is out (don't feel strongly about it, but whatever) but is it going to be east or north?

Personally, I see a Salt Lake City region, for the lake if nothing else. The NCR might be able to send a recon "in force" that far east, especially if they hear about the superweapon- imagine a Greek Fire bomb eating away at the heart of Hoover Dam. They'd want it gone ASAP. Of course, this would also serve a convenient means of setting up the conflict- the NCR scout team (probably aqn Enclave squad size/power deal, maybe even with a vertibird) wants to destroy the legion and would obviously be receptive to a tribal alliance, but when all is said and done they need to be convinced to leave/destroy some/all of the weapons/tech for the locals.

[devinpatterson]

So, is the exact locale nailed down yet? I assume Mexico is out (don't feel strongly about it, but whatever) but is it going to be east or north?

Personally, I see a Salt Lake City region, for the lake if nothing else. The NCR might be able to send a recon "in force" that far east, especially if they hear about the superweapon- imagine a Greek Fire bomb eating away at the heart of Hoover Dam. They'd want it gone ASAP. Of course, this would also serve a convenient means of setting up the conflict- the NCR scout team (probably aqn Enclave squad size/power deal, maybe even with a vertibird) wants to destroy the legion and would obviously be receptive to a tribal alliance, but when all is said and done they need to be convinced to leave/destroy some/all of the weapons/tech for the locals.

 

I was thinking of having the location within 200(ish) miles of the mojave. Moving around north of new vegas, into the southern parts of NV & UT using the Zion area and dipping into northern AZ when the conflict with the legion really picks up in the mod. It lets us use bot mojave and zion resources. There are also a ton of very large national forest/parks in the southern portion of Utah, which will be great for what we want to do.

 

If you want to make a group of NCR rangers to aid in the final oil rig battle I'm sure we can put that quest together. Although I'd recommend the rig being lower in southern Utah as salt lake city is heavily legion occupied territory making it a pretty tough mark (it seems only second to Flagstaff in legion numbers). But more problematic is that it's a rich/detailed environment, which means a s-load of work. Where as if we throw it in south Utah it's just a refinery in the wild nad some shanty town around it.

 

I think as far as convincing the ncr to leave it won't be too terrible, since it's a hard position to hold with legion troops north and it could be a act of good faith to cement a treaty with the tribes. So that seems plausible.

[TrooperScooperMKII]

It's not about convincing them to leave; it's convincing them to leave empty handed. The tribe (and the nightkin) don't trust the NCR with weapons like the Greek Fire (and whatever else is there) and the NCR would want to keep/use the tech. The PC would need to decide what stays and what goes, and convince the NCR/Tribes to accept the deal.

[devinpatterson]

It's not about convincing them to leave; it's convincing them to leave empty handed. The tribe (and the nightkin) don't trust the NCR with weapons like the Greek Fire (and whatever else is there) and the NCR would want to keep/use the tech. The PC would need to decide what stays and what goes, and convince the NCR/Tribes to accept the deal.

 

Yep, I understood what you were saying. Don't think you have to worry about them taking refinery equipment (stuff is massive), knowledge of the process is probably the only thing of value (since it's relatively low tech it should be easy to implement) the player can determine who gets the data, any actual greek fire can be lit up to destroy the refinery or will be destoyed if the refinery is lit up. So.....I don't see the problem per se

 

That's assuming hte NCR is involved at all, this could also be a simple infiltrate and destroy mission via the player.