3 attributes...

[mikedepreston]

I guess I don't consider Attributes to be the defining characteristic of an RPG. In Oblivion, the mechanics of the Attribute system are clumsy. So, I cast my +10 to Strength Restoration spell in Oblivion and it doesn't even increase my damage. Instead, it just lets me carry more stuff. Then there's all this useless clutter of scrolls and potion affects and spells that either increases or lowers yours or your enemies Attributes and they're almost completely worthless.

 

For real. Why would I want a sword that magically damages someone's personality? I mean hitting them with it would diminish their opinion of me pretty quickly in itself.

 

Re: Strength... I think stamina takes this role, the more stamina you have the more effective you are at using weapons. You can choose to increase your stamina when you level up. I do think that the combination of directly increasing the three attributes and using perks will give more flexibility and therefore provide a more useful roleplay experience.

Edited October 18, 2011 by mikedepreston

[mikedepreston]

Yeah, it's probably power attacks. Ordinary swings don't use stamina :(

 

I think they do...

[CalibanX]

I agree with those saying that the Fallout Attribute system was much improved over Oblivion. And unlike Oblivion, at character creation, you had the option to lower your Attributes in order to bump others up higher, which was totally cool. And for those who really lament the loss of the Attribute system I can see where you're coming from. If there was any feature in a game series that I really liked and it was done away with I would be disappointed to see it go too.

 

For me, in the case of Attributes, I don't have the feeling that they were central to my gaming experience. I like the newer, streamlined approach. I find it to be aesthetically appealing in the sense of stripping things down to their base essence and removing clutter. It's like E=mc2. A simple, elegant formula that works is cleaner and stronger because of it's simplicity. Einstein didn't dumb-down physics because he was able to express a lot of complicated phenomena down to a few, iconic formulas.That's how I'm looking at Skyrim. I'm imagining the developers looking at the Attributes and weighing what affects they actually have in the game world that aren't already expressed with skills and came to the conclusion that they weren't necessary.

 

Also, when making a character, you have a concept in your head but I don't find that the interesting parts of those concepts are reducible to things as blunt as Strength and Intelligence. A gymnast is physically strong, but in a totally different way than a weight-lifter is. A Hunter who can reliably track and hunt animals can be very intelligent in that skill set, and social intelligence is completely different from someone whose reads a lot of books. They are all different aspects of Intelligence that cannot be represented in a single, blunt Intelligence stat.

 

The conception I have for my first Skyrim character is a female Orc who has a complicated relationship with other races. I never played Orcs in Oblivion cuz I thought they looked awful. Now they look fantastic, so I'm playing an Orc who will be prone to be friendly toward the Beast Races, indifferent to human races and hostile toward the Elven races. Playing this kind of a character doesn't require that I have some numerical rating system of race relations. It's unnecessary. My character concept will express her self through her actions in the game. I don't need numbers to define her personality.

Edited October 18, 2011 by CalibanX

[Tuco404]

Anyone who thinks that strength is fine as a composite of stamina should watch this video of the world's strongest man, Mariusz Pudzianowski, run out of stamina almost immediately.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MEyQBPPNv7k

 

Wanna see one of the highest stamina individuals in the world?

 

http://thebostonjam.files.wordpress.com/2011/05/lance-armstrong-37-b.jpg

 

Hand both of these guys a battle-axe, which one do you think will swing harder?

 

The removal of attributes might streamline the gameplay, but having the sta/str/dex/cha/int/wis attributes is a tried and true system that makes sense.

Edited October 18, 2011 by Tuco404

[CalibanX]

One could also make the argument that, based on those two examples, that Strength is not the key factor when determining overall (DPS) damage output from a Melee Weapon. If the strong character can only swing the battle axe once before becoming fatigued, then I'd put my money on the dude that can swing it multiple times over the guy who can only swing it once. The Skills in Skyrim represent the level of Mastery someone has in a given ability. Like fighting with battle axes. Which presumes an overall conditioning of the body to perform the Skill. Including strength, stamina, agility, etc.

 

I don't think it's necessary to be overly literal with the Stamina Attribute. It's primarily an energy source for performing melee attacks, just as magicka is an energy source for performing magical attacks.

Edited October 18, 2011 by CalibanX

[Tuco404]

One could also make the argument that, based on those two videos, that Strength is not the key factor when determining overall (DPS) damage output from a Melee Weapon. If the strong character can only swing the battle once before becoming fatigued, then I'd put my money on the dude that can swing it multiple times over the guy who can only swing it once. The Skills in Skyrim represent the level of Mastery someone has in a given ability. Like fighting with battle axes. Which presumes an overall conditioning of the body to perform the Skill. Including strength, stamina, agility, etc.

 

I don't think it's necessary to be overly literal with the Stamina Attribute. It's simply an energy source for performing melee attacks, just as magicka is an energy source for performing magical attacks.

 

Except that stamina and strength work together to give a multi-faceted approach to gameplay that can't be found by having only strength or stamina. There is a massive difference between burst and sustained DPS, and they each have their roles in gaming.

 

In combat sports it's very typical to have a matchup of a tough, high-endurance fighter who is matched up with an explosive, low-endurance fighter. The question is always whether the high-endurance fighter can weather the early storm and then beat up the tired fighter.

 

You can't sit there and pretend that Tim Sylvia could beat Maruisz in any feat of strength while the two were fresh, so it wouldn't make sense for DPS not to be based on a strength attribute. In the second/third rounds though, Tim Sylvia could start to compete with Maruisz in power lifting.

Edited October 18, 2011 by Tuco404

[CalibanX]

I agree that "stamina and strength work together to give a multi-faceted approach to gameplay that can't be found by having only strength or stamina." That's why I think the Skyrim model more accurately reflects the dynamics of physical conditioning required to be proficient in a physical Skill. The ability to fight with battle axes would require a simultaneous improvement of strength, dexterity, stamina and even intelligence. The older Attribute system doesn't reflect this. The new one does because there is no one single Attribute that governs damage output the way the Strength Attribute traditionally did.

 

And, in a way, a lot of our feelings about the old Attribute system vs the new Skyrim model is kinda premature as we haven't had a chance to use the new system. Perhaps Bethesda will completely ruin the game due to this singular change. I happen to doubt that, but it's possible. In any event, we won't really know how well or not the new system functions until we actually play the game. I'm just not fixated on weather or not my character has X Attributes when a Skill system could presumably represent the same things. Or, Odin forbid, represent them better. :)

Edited October 18, 2011 by CalibanX

[Fatalmasterpiece]

Yeah, it's probably power attacks. Ordinary swings don't use stamina :(

 

I think they do...

 

They should, it would make battles much more dynamic.

 

i would have rather seen the attributes reworked rather than removed. My primary concern is that this change will make characters less diverse, and result in characters being more similar at the same levels.

 

I agree. But if your only concern is diversity, you will get 1 perk per level, so should be able to see diversity between characters in but a few levels. My concern was that I wanted an RPG, and found an action game as the next installment of one of the best RPG series around. Having a fixed attribute system for chapter vi, as well as the perk system would be double dipping the diversity like the Fallout games do, and renew my faith in TES series. As well as continue to purchase future games.

 

The problem is that every two handed warrior will take the same perks by nature. Every Archer will take bow, light armor and sneak perks. The perks don't really help with diversity because they are linear.

 

 

Of course, it's not broken and it still should be fun but the question is just... why? It didn't need to be removed, just fixed like it was in Fallout 3.

[Tuco404]

The problem is that every two handed warrior will take the same perks by nature.

 

I think that we'll have fairly diverse characters in Skyrim. In multiplayer games with perks there are typical archtypes that get generated and can be somewhat linear (A diablo2 hammerdin, a WoW holy priest etc), but the non-competitive nature of this game means you could have some conjuration / two hand warriors that end up a few select conjuration perks and the full 2h tree.

[SickFak]

Yeah, it's probably power attacks. Ordinary swings don't use stamina :(

 

I think they do...

 

They should, it would make battles much more dynamic.

 

 

Yeah, they should, agreed, but unfortunately...