3 attributes...

[Lowk]

There seems to be something like that in place already, sort of...one preview mentions a level 1 character that picks up a battle axe and only has enough stamina to swing it once or twice. What confused me about it is that the author implied there was a perk that reduced stamina usage...

There is a perk that reduces the stamina requirement for power attacks on 2-handed weapons: "Power Attacks cost 25% less Stamina."

 

I assume that is what you're referring to.

Yes, that must be it. Thanks!

[SickFak]

Yeah, it's probably power attacks. Ordinary swings don't use stamina :(

[modder3434]

i find that since the idea with skyrim is that we can be what we place in our hands, that the new attribute system works well with it. simplify the options with combat, and simplify the attributes that would go well with the simplified combat system. In skyrim i can use what ever i what, even though its encouraged to pick a blade or blunt for one-handed weapons solely. in oblivion if i didn't select what i wanted to use at the beginning of the game it got left out until i made a new character. in skyrim i can be everything, at anytime without tedious leveling and getting my ass kicked. Bottom line this new system sounds better then the old one.

[tesshouldberpg]

In opening, 3 action game type bars (red, blue and green) are not attributes. Calling the removal of base attributes from an rpg "streamlining" is like calling a wrecking ball to a house "kitchen remodeling."

 

I was very much looking forward to Skyrim coming out then I read the summaries on several sites stating that attributes had been removed. At first I took this with shock then dismay. The issue isn't so much whether the game they make plays well. It's the fact that The Elder Scrolls has been such an incredibly wonderful rpg series to see chapter V being made into an action game instead of an rpg is sickening.

 

I know. "Action RPG." The issue is that coming from the pencil n paper rpg genre, a game without base attributes is ridiculous. Character design was a huge part of chapters 2, 3 and 4, and had lasting impact on the game. Now with the exception of race and making yourself look burly or sickly, all characters start out the same. They level almost exactly the same, but you get perks to boost your skills. That's the only differentiation between characters and replay value is in the perks. It's not like this is an mmo, and there needs to be pvp balance or something. The making of all characters the same race exactly the same strikes me as either a move of laziness or to dumb the game down. Any attribute set is better than none in terms of an rpg. It's not like Bethesda didn't have experience or choices from earlier games. I asked myself, how does the spiritual brainchild of 2 rpgs with attributes systems have no attributes? I remember the joy of making many characters with different attribute sets in earlier Fallouts for extremely different and fun game play. And the feeling that you have some part and control in the character's generation during the previous TES was very nice as well. Furthermore, some of the abilities were checked upon independently of derived skills. If your character had too much personality, you couldn't do one of the daedric shrine quests. If your agility was too low, you'd get knocked down a lot. Many character interactions only opened up depending on base attributes in the latest fallout, and more in ealier Fallouts. Attributes are part of what an rpg is. Good rpgs take the value of the attribute more into account that simply the sum of the derived stats. That was part of what made these two series (Fallout and TES) so good.

 

So the only way this game has rpg value at all is by what actions you perform. In that, it may be the only ACTION game I ever enjoy playing. But the referring to base attributes as redundant, everything COULD be simplified to an action game, so that everything is based on your bars running out and what you're doing with your hands, but why? That's just as unnecessary as eliminating them. I get that to the minmaxer in Oblivion, 1 int = 2 mp. It used to be more than just mp, but that was its latest reduction. All they care about is beating the game. For these, action game mode is fine. To the rpg fan, even in the latest form, 1 int was worth more than 2 mp. The "it's just a number" response is for those that don't get a feel for their character. When I played fallout 2 with 1 int, not only did npc's talk to me like I was dumb as rocks, I played as dumb as rocks. Now it's just going to be I am race R with {P} perks, and I've used these skills most instead of "I am playing the character I designed." In summary, the change was unnecessary for action gamers and deleterious to rp gamers.

 

TL;DR version: Nerd rage - was hoping for the most awesome rpg series of all times to actually release an rpg instead of an action game. Was seriously craving some good rpg and no attributes in Skyrim is a huge let down.

[macole]

In opening, 3 action game type bars (red, blue and green) are not attributes. Calling the removal of base attributes from an rpg "streamlining" is like calling a wrecking ball to a house "kitchen remodeling."

 

I was very much looking forward to Skyrim coming out then I read the summaries on several sites stating that attributes had been removed. At first I took this with shock then dismay. The issue isn't so much whether the game they make plays well. It's the fact that The Elder Scrolls has been such an incredibly wonderful rpg series to see chapter V being made into an action game instead of an rpg is sickening.

 

I know. "Action RPG." The issue is that coming from the pencil n paper rpg genre, a game without base attributes is ridiculous. Character design was a huge part of chapters 2, 3 and 4, and had lasting impact on the game. Now with the exception of race and making yourself look burly or sickly, all characters start out the same. They level almost exactly the same, but you get perks to boost your skills. That's the only differentiation between characters and replay value is in the perks. It's not like this is an mmo, and there needs to be pvp balance or something. The making of all characters the same race exactly the same strikes me as either a move of laziness or to dumb the game down. Any attribute set is better than none in terms of an rpg. It's not like Bethesda didn't have experience or choices from earlier games. I asked myself, how does the spiritual brainchild of 2 rpgs with attributes systems have no attributes? I remember the joy of making many characters with different attribute sets in earlier Fallouts for extremely different and fun game play. And the feeling that you have some part and control in the character's generation during the previous TES was very nice as well. Furthermore, some of the abilities were checked upon independently of derived skills. If your character had too much personality, you couldn't do one of the daedric shrine quests. If your agility was too low, you'd get knocked down a lot. Many character interactions only opened up depending on base attributes in the latest fallout, and more in ealier Fallouts. Attributes are part of what an rpg is. Good rpgs take the value of the attribute more into account that simply the sum of the derived stats. That was part of what made these two series (Fallout and TES) so good.

 

So the only way this game has rpg value at all is by what actions you perform. In that, it may be the only ACTION game I ever enjoy playing. But the referring to base attributes as redundant, everything COULD be simplified to an action game, so that everything is based on your bars running out and what you're doing with your hands, but why? That's just as unnecessary as eliminating them. I get that to the minmaxer in Oblivion, 1 int = 2 mp. It used to be more than just mp, but that was its latest reduction. All they care about is beating the game. For these, action game mode is fine. To the rpg fan, even in the latest form, 1 int was worth more than 2 mp. The "it's just a number" response is for those that don't get a feel for their character. When I played fallout 2 with 1 int, not only did npc's talk to me like I was dumb as rocks, I played as dumb as rocks. Now it's just going to be I am race R with {P} perks, and I've used these skills most instead of "I am playing the character I designed." In summary, the change was unnecessary for action gamers and deleterious to rp gamers.

 

TL;DR version: Nerd rage - was hoping for the most awesome rpg series of all times to actually release an rpg instead of an action game. Was seriously craving some good rpg and no attributes in Skyrim is a huge let down.

 

Thank you for saying so well what I too am thinking. I will add to this that since Daggerfall, Beth has taken the path of tossing out elements instead of improving upon the short coming of the previous chapter. Attributes and spell creation are now among the latest victims.

[CalibanX]

I guess I don't consider Attributes to be the defining characteristic of an RPG. In Oblivion, the mechanics of the Attribute system are clumsy. So, I cast my +10 to Strength Restoration spell in Oblivion and it doesn't even increase my damage. Instead, it just lets me carry more stuff. Then there's all this useless clutter of scrolls and potion affects and spells that either increases or lowers yours or your enemies Attributes and they're almost completely worthless.

 

I agree it's fun to pick Attributes at character creation and leveling, but the actual affects of those Attribute choices still revolve around making you physically tougher, better at magic, better at stealth, or better at social skills. None of this is lost with the new system. In the new system, instead of picking a few Attributes to be higher at character generation & leveling, you must roleplay your character to achieve those results in actual gameplay. Which is awesome. Nor do I see this as a dumbing down scenario either since the Attribute system doesn't have the kind of tactical depth that one finds in a strategy game. The traditional Attribute system, while having an intuitive appeal, is not exactly a complex system of anything. It's just choosing to bump up a few numbers that will predictably correspond with the kind of character you want to play: Mages bump up INT, fighters STR, rogues AGL. The very act of "choosing" these Attributes isn't really a choice at all. It's an obligatory gesture. I very much prefer the Skyrim approach of becoming the character you want to play through your actions rather than fiddling with a few numbers on a character sheet.

Edited October 18, 2011 by CalibanX

[Glitchmaster8]

Am I the only one who will be missing Luck more than Strength or Willpower? Where did Intelligence go? The whole point of Willpower vs Intelligence was did the player want a higher mana pool or a faster regen rate? Now we get both I guess. Lame.

[Fatalmasterpiece]

i would have rather seen the attributes reworked rather than removed. My primary concern is that this change will make characters less diverse, and result in characters being more similar at the same levels.

[tesshouldberpg]

Am I the only one who will be missing Luck more than Strength or Willpower? Where did Intelligence go? The whole point of Willpower vs Intelligence was did the player want a higher mana pool or a faster regen rate? Now we get both I guess. Lame.

Intelligence and Willpower used to be even more than simply their derived stats. And I loved my luck heavy characters. I SWEAR it affected loot generation.

 

I guess I don't consider Attributes to be the defining characteristic of an RPG. In Oblivion, the mechanics of the Attribute system are clumsy ... Attributes and they're almost completely worthless.

 

I agree it's fun to pick Attributes at character creation and leveling, but the actual affects of those Attribute choices still revolve around making you physically tougher, better at magic, better at stealth, or better at social skills. None of this is lost with the new system. In the new system, instead of picking a few Attributes to be higher at character generation & leveling, you must roleplay your character to achieve those results in actual gameplay. Which is awesome. Nor do I see this as a dumbing down scenario either since the Attribute system doesn't have the kind of tactical depth that one finds in a strategy game. The traditional Attribute system, while having an intuitive appeal, is not exactly a complex system of anything. It's just choosing to bump up a few numbers that will predictably correspond with the kind of character you want to play: Mages bump up INT, fighters STR, rogues AGL. The very act of "choosing" these Attributes isn't really a choice at all. It's an obligatory gesture. I very much prefer the Skyrim approach of becoming the character you want to play through your actions rather than fiddling with a few numbers on a character sheet.

 

Yeah, I wouldn't call base attributes a definition of RPG, either. It's a necessary but not sufficient part of what makes an RPG. I don't recall ever hearing or seeing any tabletop RPG that has ever NOT had base stats. Whether 3d6 scale, 1-5 scale, 1-10 scale, assigned, roll determined, or purchased, they've all got base stats in there that affect other elements of the game. I understand that the skill tied perks function as substitute for a previously broken system, but the end result is something that moves it out of the RPG genre.

 

With SPECIAL (Fallout's stat system), your attributes had direct effects on skills, as well as unlocking perks. Raising attributes was not easy, and all 10's was impossible without cheating. The other thing the attributes did was open certain game options at various points (some perks did this as well). The combination of perks and attribute assignment importance created additional replay value for me beyond what either alone could do.

 

The stat system doesn't have to be something that allows everyone to reach across the board 100's. Because stats had come so easily, they hardcapped the value of a lot of them, making your +10 restoration spell likely to be nothing more than a less glitchy feather spell because you were over the hardcap for affecting damage. If the stats had been more conservatively awarded, seeing 1 attribute at 100 would be something special. The argument that choosing stats to bump wasn't a choice I both agree and disagree with. Because of the hp derived from endurance at level, I felt a survival need to max endurance asap. But rogue to agi, fighter to str and mage to int was by no means a given. Like spellsword. Or like the speed attribute that EVERYONE could benefit from. But again compared to successive chapters of TES, they're going for limitations. The easiest way to limit players from abusing stuff is to take away the things they abuse. Potions augmenting potion making? Gone. I never abused it, but apparently some people did because they could, then complained about it. Creative spells that do way more than they intended spells to do? Gone. Being able to name and fashion your own effects was one of TES' jewels. Instead of fixing the attribute system, they just did away with it and called it streamlining. Streamlined right into the action game genre.

 

With that said... will this be an awesome action game? Most definitely probably likely! Will it give me my RPG character creation fix? Absolutely not. Do I want a fixed attribute system in chapter VI? Yes, or I'm not buying it. My love of the series (previous games) is the only thing making me buy this illegitimate child of an action game in an rpg series. I won't do it a second time. For people that enjoy action games, and have no attachment to RPG, I understand this is a non-issue.

[tesshouldberpg]

i would have rather seen the attributes reworked rather than removed. My primary concern is that this change will make characters less diverse, and result in characters being more similar at the same levels.

 

I agree. But if your only concern is diversity, you will get 1 perk per level, so should be able to see diversity between characters in but a few levels. My concern was that I wanted an RPG, and found an action game as the next installment of one of the best RPG series around. Having a fixed attribute system for chapter vi, as well as the perk system would be double dipping the diversity like the Fallout games do, and renew my faith in TES series. As well as continue to purchase future games.