The Great Imperial vs. Stormcloak Debate

[sukeban]

@bigmagy

 

You are right, I haven't read all 16 pages of this thread. Perhaps many answers are indeed housed there.

 

Be that as it may--

 

I find it rather... difficult to really get all up in arms about the Markarth Incident as some sort of a uniquely Stormcloak phenomenon. If you rely on that book, The Bear of Markarth, you have to take into consideration its source--Arrianus Arius, an Imperial Scholar. Biased much? That would be like treating the book Nords Arise! as the gospel truth or taking The Dunmer of Skyrim to be an accurate representation as to the conditions in Windhelm. Basic historiography, you have to take into consideration the biases and limitations of your sources. In this case, I would put an enormous asterisk next to almost whatever is in that book, as it was likely written expressly to advance the Imperial agenda in Skyrim. Either that, or he is merely too swept up in the romance of the Forsworn (he also wrote The Madmen of the Reach), like so many impressionable, idealistic scholars that make visits to remote and exotic lands.

 

In any case, the Forsowrn were dispossessed of their land with the blessing of the Empire. Violence was being perpetrated against the Forsworn by Imperial Nords for ages... long before Ulfric Stormcloak ever trod the surface of Tamriel. To suggest otherwise is rather rich. Certainly, a battle took place in Markarth and certainly Ulfric was the victor. However, who is to say what actually transpired? Not you. Not me. Only Ulfric and his men know. The dead Forsworn are telling no tales, which makes me wonder exactly how Arius collected his extremely vivid testimony of the event.

 

As for being a "True Son or Daughter" of Skyrim, clearly it is meant to be more of a "state of mind" rather than some sort of racial taxonomy or descriptor. Case in point, our PC can join the Stormcloaks no matter what race they choose. There are also random-encounter Dunmer farmers making the journey to join the Stormcloak cause because, as they say, "Ulfric has the right of it." There are Redguard farmers that say the exact same thing. There may even be more.

 

It is clear that being a Son or Daughter of Skyrim means disliking being dictated to by foreign lords, lords that may or may not throw you under the bus in order to preserve the station of a distant and privileged tyrant. It means disliking dying for worshiping your chosen Divine... while a feckless, decadent Empire allows foreign Inquisitors to freely roam the land. It means believing that you are being dictated to--exploited--yet receiving no reciprocation, no benefit for your pain, suffering, or obedience. It means viewing Skyrim as an Imperial colony rather than a province, a land where foreign lords (or their milk-drinking jarls) extract blood and treasure from the people while insulting local customs and tradition... all the while waiting to be conquered by the damnable elves. That is what it means to be a Son or Daughter of Skyrim, to believe that Skyrim is better off without the Empire, able to stand on its own two sturdy feet while the Empire prostrates itself like a worm.

 

(That is more of a "devil's advocate" argument than what I truly believe, but it should be clear that being a Son or Daughter of Skyrim does not automatically imply being a Nord.)

 

In any case, the "Stormcloaks are sorta Nazis" argument still doesn't hold water. You realize it is Tullius that is always barking about executing traitorous Stormcloak dogs and threatens Ulfric's life even at the peace summit? On the other hand, Ulfric repeatedly allows Imperial supporters to surrender (you'll notice the Imperial jarls and their entourages are not executed) and encourages Tullius and the Legion to leave Skyrim alive rather than waste their lives fighting the Stormcloaks. Tullius just blows hot air saying essentially "I'm gonna git you, sucka" over and over and over again. Ulfric doesn't want death for death's sake (ethnic cleansing), he wants the Empire to leave Skyrim well alone. This could have been accomplished bloodlessly if the Empire had merely allowed Skyrim to go the way of Hammerfell and secede, but Titus Mede II opted to send in the Legion instead. Why the double-standard?

 

If Mede II had allowed Skyrim to leave the Empire peacefully, as he did with Hammerfell, there is no reason to suspect that the two states would be antagonistic toward each other. Are the old British colonies still nursing grudges with England? Do they gear their foreign and trade policies toward hindering the development of the English? No! Australia, Canada, NZ, etc. are all allies, the best of friends. This could have been the situation with Skyrim and the Empire as well, but Titus Mede II had to get all aggro and invade.

 

Fast and Furious:

 

1. Khajiits are barred from entering Solitude. They are mistrusted throughout all of Skyrim, not only by the Stormcloaks.

 

2. There are no Argonians in Solitude*. Come to think of it, are there any racial minorities in any of the Imperial holds (citing Markarth will not help your argument)? This is a problem that Imperial jarls do not have to address, thus it is counter-factual to argue that Imperial holds would be free of all racial prejudice. There are sizable racial minorities in three of the four original Stormcloak holds--Windhelm, Riften, and Winterhold. Race relations are FAR from perfect, but this is also a problem that the Imperial holds by-and-large do not have to deal with. It is like comparing race-relations in the United States or the old USSR to those in Luxembourg or Korea.

 

*There are two, but only one of them actually lives in Solitude. In any case, this is not a "sizable" population.

 

3. This is what Talos would do: he would rally the True Sons and Daughters of MANKIND and cast aside the lifeless husk of the so-called "Empire." He would then re-forge the Empire in his own image, courageous and wise, and discard the practices and policies of the despised Colovian usurpers. Once dispatched, he would turn his attention to the Thalmor elves, making an example of them as the mighty Ysgramor did thousands of years before.

Edited March 14, 2012 by sukeban

[Nintii]

Another reason I doubt I'd support the Stormcloacks is that they sound a bit too much like "National Socialists" ... they are anit-everybody who isn't a native of Skyrim ... If they were open to "others" then I suppose I'd have a bit more time for them but currently make that:

 

1 Strike: Against the Empire for fraternizing with the enemy Thalmor. :down:

 

2 Strikes: Against the Stormcloacks for being Social Nationalist :down: and putting humans at risk in the face of a threat to our species. :down:

Edited March 14, 2012 by Nintii

[StormHammer81]

"1. Khajiits are barred from entering Solitude. They are mistrusted throughout all of Skyrim, not only by the Stormcloaks."

 

Khajiits are barred from entering Solitude... It's not really that they're barred from entering, just no one trusts them ~ yet. No one trusts them because the Nords have a biased disposition towards them. And if the Stormcloaks take over, they'll just start killing them. Ulfric's ego allows the bandits to kill them and do whatever in Stormcloak territory. The Imperial side may not trust them, but they do TOLERATE them. The Imperials are TOLERANT. Ulfric and his Stormcloaks are Not-Tolerant. Big difference between... Not trusting someone until they EARN your trust and painting a target on their a$$ and murdering them. Again... If you can't see the difference in that...

 

"2. There are no Argonians in Solitude*. Come to think of it, are there any racial minorities in any of the Imperial holds (citing Markarth will not help your argument)? This is a problem that Imperial jarls do not have to address, thus it is counter-factual to argue that Imperial holds would be free of all racial prejudice. There are sizable racial minorities in three of the four original Stormcloak holds--Windhelm, Riften, and Winterhold. Race relations are FAR from perfect, but this is also a problem that the Imperial holds by-and-large do not have to deal with. It is like comparing race-relations in the United States or the old USSR to those in Luxembourg or Korea."

 

"There are two, but only one of them actually lives in Solitude. In any case, this is not a "sizable" population."

 

True, you meet very few Argonians but does it matter? Really, does persecuting a lone Argonian in Skyrim make it ok? Again, lol, there are racial minorities in EVERY hold in Skyrim. Even if they're Imperial by blood or former Employment. And MARKARTH contrary to your opinion, is an AWESOME example of what happens when you as a Jarl or otherwise take a really ARROGANT and obnoxious hand to the minorities. There are minorities all over Skyrim and they contribute greatly to the overall well being of Skyrim. No decent or credible Jarl is going to just ignore them like you're implying. But right, the Nords are more important than them and when Ulfric takes over they'll all get what's coming to them anyways right?

 

"3. This is what Talos would do: he would rally the True Sons and Daughters of MANKIND and cast aside the lifeless husk of the so-called "Empire." He would then re-forge the Empire in his own image, courageous and wise, and discard the practices and policies of the despised Colovian usurpers. Once dispatched, he would turn his attention to the Thalmor elves, making an example of them as the mighty Ysgramor did thousands of years before."

 

Wow. You know my dear, I can't even begin to site all of the things that are wrong with the above statement. Just wow. I'll try. The first thing you are missing, is that an Empire consists of MANY peoples not just MANKIND. Furthermore, I would also like to add, it was MANKIND who failed against the Thalmor in the first place. Think about it. Secondly, the Empire is NOT a lifeless husk, it is still VERY much alive and redeemable. Morrowind is a Dead, Lifeless Husk. All we need to do is get rid of the Idiot in charge and we have an heir to the Imperial thrown, just get the Dragonborn on the Thrown and all of this sh*t will stop. Third, this is STILL the Empire of Talos. A house divided against itself will not stand. Ulfric and his people HATE the Empire. They, will NEVER reforge it. That's the first thing you learn talking to him and tough guy over there. Ulfric will bring division, therefore, his will is NOT and CAN NEVER be Equivalent to the Will of Talos. Talos conquered everything. Fourth, Ulfric will never march against the Thalmor unless they invade him. Ulfric only cares about Skyrim. When the Civil War is concluded, Skyrim will be so f*cked up and the people so divided and in fear, they will never be the same. And all the while, the Aldmeri Dominion is becoming stronger every day. :dance:

 

And finally, there's a HUGE difference between Ysgramor and Ulfric. Different time, different place. Ysgramor now, when he started on the Snow Elves, it pains me to say this, but showed no better after those Elves burned out that Nord city. They killed civilians and military alike, so did Ysgramor. Elf children, women, he murdered, raped and pillaged them all. Which, I suppose it's fair considering what the Snow Elves did to Saarthul, but he was really no better. The Elves wiped out one city, the Nords destroyed their entire race. Seems kind of sad if you think about it. And Talos didn't even go that far with his worst enemies. He united everyone and said something like, "You f*ckers better get along or else." And everyone did. He didn't go crazy over it.

 

As for why Titus Mede II didn't just allow Skyrim to secede, well it's a little more complicated than that. You see, the true High King Torygg was really thinking about seceding until Ulfric murdered him. If Ulfric had just asked, with his influence he might have got his way. Instead, Ulfric took the cowards way out. By bringing a Rocket-Launcher to a Sword duel. Hammerfall was a legitimate conflict of interest. There was no intrigue. Savy? Although I wouldn't have signed the treaty, had some knucklehead murdered my friend, I would have sent the feds after his a$$ too.

 

Ulfric is his own worst enemy.

Edited March 14, 2012 by bigmagy1981

[Thor.]

I Still think going the The Way Of Tibers Septim is the most Logical solution... Anybody here agree with me. he had the right idea.:dance: :dance: :dance: Edited March 14, 2012 by Thor.

[StormHammer81]

Sounds good. Only the Dragonborn could do it though. Honestly, I wouldn't trust anyone else, the Thalmor are everywhere. Edited March 14, 2012 by bigmagy1981

[sukeban]

@everyone on this page

 

I think we agree on like 75% of the subject matter here. We all want to see the Thalmor destroyed, to see Valenwood and the Summerset Isles liberated from their truly "National Socialist" yoke, and to see the races of Tamriel get along with each other peacefully after this is accomplished. Our only differences lie with which faction we believe most efficiently pursues this goal.

 

@Thor

 

Yes, I believe our PC should go the Talos route. My PC aims to repeat the exploits of Talos almost deed-for-deed (minus, I guess, the assistance of the Numidium...). She is a Nord and she has joined the Stormcloaks. Ulfric may be the official political "leader," but it is clear to all Stormcloaks as to who really won the Civil War and who thusly wields true control over the faction. I can only assume that Mede II is meant to be assassinated in canon (if not by you, then by somebody else in the DB), which means that the Empire is without a leader. The legitimacy of the PC as the sole legitimate claimant to the Imperial throne is clear; yet if it is not (to certain Colovian aristocrats...), then the PC will cleave through whatever forces they can muster in order to enforce her claim upon the throne. IMO, this makes more sense as an outsider (Stormcloak) than it does for an Imperial, as an Imperial would have to navigate the political waters of the existing Empire in order to rightfully gain access to the throne. It could be done, of course, but it seems to me to be a more difficult, lengthier path--and time isn't really something that the Empire has much to spare these days.

 

@bigmagy + (to a lesser extent) nintii

 

I still really don't see where the "Faster pussycat--kill, kill, kill!" mentality of the Stormcloaks is supposed to be coming into play. Really, in-game there just doesn't seem to be any actual example of this. No Stormcloak ever says, "Dang, I just really hate Khajiits and want to kill 'em all, grrrrrr." Neither do they say anything about Argonians or Orcs or Redguards or Bretons or whatever. They bad-mouth "elves," but isn't it clear that they are talking about the Thalmor and not every elf in Tamriel? They talk about killing Imperials, sure... but that same dialogue is mirrored whenever you walk into an Imperial camp ("I can't wait to kill another one of Ulfric's boys"). They dislike the Empire as a political faction--not as a people. They want the Empire to leave Skyrim alone politically, to vacate Skyrim, to withdraw their armies; they do not crave the extinction of all Imperials, Bretons, Redguards or Dunmer.

 

They are, in no way, shape or form, "Painting a target on their a$$ and murdering them." Seriously, WTF. That just does not happen in-game. The Thalmor are the only National Socialist-esque faction in Tamriel. They are the only ones running pogroms and purges of dissidents. The Thalmor are the real Nazis. The Stormcloaks are just rough around the edges.

 

@bigmagy

 

And it absolutely DOES make a difference that there are barely any minorities in Imperial holds. It is cool that the residents of Falkreath can welcome in the one High Elf priest of Arkay into their town, to look past his actions in the Great War. However, there is only one of him. You might be able to draw comparisons with Windhelm if there were, say--ten High Elves living in the town, but fact is, there are not. There is what, another lone Altmer in Morthal (the mage?), but everybody in town hates him and thinks he's a necromancer. There is... one Wood Elf and two Argonians in Solitude. Both Argonians are criminals and people think that they are shady; the Bosmer is sort of sleazy but the people do leave him alone. There are a pair of Bosmer living in Whiterun... and people do seem to like them. Markarth might be an example of Nord chauvinism but... the Empire already controls the hold! The Empire sanctions the oppression of the Forsworn. And it makes sense, as all they really want out of Markarth is the silver. That is why Margaret is there, isn't it? To obtain the deed to Cidhna Mine? The Empire doesn't care about the Forsworn, all they want is what's in the ground.

 

In any case, with final regard to the "Skyrim for the Nords" slogan, I will say this. While I in no way condone racism and, of course, believe that minorities (in Skyrim and in IRL) make any society better, Skyrim IS the homeland of the Nords. Not the Imperials, not the Bretons, not the Redguards, and not the Dunmer. I always answer Brunwulf Free-Winter's question with "Skyrim is big enough for everybody," but it is still the homeland of the Nords. Any nation on the planet expects immigrants to assimilate (within reason) to their culture when they arrive there. And truly, most immigrants see this as an opportunity to advance themselves within their new society. If you moved to Japan, would you not try your best to learn Japanese, to learn and respect Japanese culture and customs even though they are not your own? I would hope that you would. Now, Skyrim doesn't have to worry about language, which is great, but every race does have their own distinct culture. The Nords have their tradition and their "old ways," their virtues of valor and bravery, their great premium placed on honor, heroism, and speaking plainly. These traditions aren't just hedge mumbo-jumbo either, as evidenced by the existence of the realm of Sovngarde.

 

Ulfric and the Stormcloaks have watched as Skyrim has become "soft" under the Empire, forsaking the traditions that gave rise to mighty Talos in exchange for the succor of chests of Imperial gold. They have watched as High Kings no longer have to prove themselves in honorable combat in order to accede to the throne, and how High Kings are hand-picked by Imperial advisers and vetted for both pliability and weakness. They have seen their jarls become flaccid and weak, accepting treasure from the Empire in exchange for their vote in the Moot. There is a reason that the Imperial racial ability in Skyrim is related to speechcraft and money-making, as they are a people that place a high premium on politics and intrigue, of managing and manipulating the affairs of others. They achieve through guile and subterfuge what they cannot achieve through valor, forthrightness, and military strength. Now, you might approve of these ways (there is much to be said for them, especially in the modern world), but these are not the ways of Skyrim and Skyrim is not the modern world. The love of gold and treasure have blinded too many of Skyrim's leaders to the glory of their heritage. These leaders are milk-drinkers suckling at the golden teat of the Imperial sow.

 

Thus, the Empire has failed to respect the history and merit of Skyrim's traditions. Even worse, they have actively attempted to subvert these ancient virtues and replace them with their own. The Empire respected the Tribunal when they annexed Morrowind. Likewise, they have made no attempt to deny the Hist in Black Marsh. I would argue (as the devil's advocate...) that it is the Empire that has failed to be tolerant of Skyrim, her traditions, and the Nords as a people--and not the other way around. This is why Skyrim rebels. They seek to remain the Nords of Skyrim and NOT the Nords of Greater Cyrodiil.

Edited March 14, 2012 by sukeban

[StormHammer81]

@sukeban

 

I think we agree on like 75% of the subject matter here. We all want to see the Thalmor destroyed, to see Valenwood and the Summerset Isles liberated from their truly "National Socialist" yoke, and to see the races of Tamriel get along with each other peacefully after this is accomplished. Our only differences lie with which faction we believe most efficiently pursues this goal.

 

OMG I hate Windows Update so much. Anyways, so I agree but the only thing is, I don't really want peace with everyone. I want to see the Empire restored and things made right again. You have to be so careful about what you do because the damn Thalmor are everywhere and I should say, everyone. Except the Stormcloaks are like the Thalmor in many ways. Really, they're two sides to the same coin. Both Hate the Empire, both are racially biased, both have a "Grand Plan" for whatever and both have strong feelings about religion.

 

 

Yes, I believe our PC should go the Talos route. My PC aims to repeat the exploits of Talos almost deed-for-deed (minus, I guess, the assistance of the Numidium...). She is a Nord and she has joined the Stormcloaks. Ulfric may be the official political "leader," but it is clear to all Stormcloaks as to who really won the Civil War and who thusly wields true control over the faction. I can only assume that Mede II is meant to be assassinated in canon (if not by you, then by somebody else in the DB), which means that the Empire is without a leader. The legitimacy of the PC as the sole legitimate claimant to the Imperial throne is clear; yet if it is not (to certain Colovian aristocrats...), then the PC will cleave through whatever forces they can muster in order to enforce her claim upon the throne. IMO, this makes more sense as an outsider (Stormcloak) than it does for an Imperial, as an Imperial would have to navigate the political waters of the existing Empire in order to rightfully gain access to the throne. It could be done, of course, but it seems to me to be a more difficult, lengthier path--and time isn't really something that the Empire has much to spare these days.

 

Simply put, you can't have it both ways, nor can I. Which do you prefer, saving the Empire of Talos by manning up and eventually taking the Imperial thrown of Talos or Destroying the Empire and getting a new beginning in Skyrim. You Cannot, I say, You Cannot, have it both ways. Walking in the "path" of Talos means saving his Empire, which he started and was his work. If you think otherwise, then you've been deceived. Ulfric once he removes the Empire from Skyrim, will NOT seek to restore or ALLOW it to be restored. You cannot get around this fact. Believe me, I have tried. The Stormcloak Jarls won't allow for it either. Sorry, not happening. This whole sad situation began when we didn't have an HEIR to the Imperial thrown. Now we have one and you want to destroy the Empire. Not Logical or rational to think otherwise. You either Destroy the Empire by helping Ulfric in his quest for Vengeance and hope for the best or you man up and save it. What's your pleasure?

 

 

I still really don't see where the "Faster pussycat--kill, kill, kill!" mentality of the Stormcloaks is supposed to be coming into play. Really, in-game there just doesn't seem to be any actual example of this. No Stormcloak ever says, "Dang, I just really hate Khajiits and want to kill 'em all, grrrrrr." Neither do they say anything about Argonians or Orcs or Redguards or Bretons or whatever. They bad-mouth "elves," but isn't it clear that they are talking about the Thalmor and not every elf in Tamriel? They talk about killing Imperials, sure... but that same dialogue is mirrored whenever you walk into an Imperial camp ("I can't wait to kill another one of Ulfric's boys"). They dislike the Empire as a political faction--not as a people. They want the Empire to leave Skyrim alone politically, to vacate Skyrim, to withdraw their armies; they do not crave the extinction of all Imperials, Bretons, Redguards or Dunmer.

 

Go talk to LOTS of different people in Skyrim like Ulfric, his LT, others in Windhelm, the alchemist in Whiterun and others... The Stormcloaks are racially biased and don't like Outsiders. Ulfric even lets the bandits have their way with them. Go talk to the Dark Elves. Again, saying that the Stormcloaks are not in some way racially biased is delusional. It really is. You even said yourself that Nords don't like Khajits.

 

 

They are, in no way, shape or form, "Painting a target on their a$$ and murdering them." Seriously, WTF. That just does not happen in-game. The Thalmor are the only National Socialist-esque faction in Tamriel. They are the only ones running pogroms and purges of dissidents. The Thalmor are the real Nazis. The Stormcloaks are just rough around the edges.

 

LMAO. Ulfric IS paying off bandits to do his dirty work and there are bodies of dead Khajits all over the roads on the way to Windhelm. "Skyrim is for the Nords." Remember? Glad I thought of that. Because when the Stormcloaks take over, they're not going to stop the Bandits and others from preying on non-Nords. It will be like and all you can eat buffet. Again, a dark, lawless place. It's not my fault if you haven't talked to some of the people in Windhelm. There's one old guy there, a war hero who knows everything that's been going on and he knows Ulfric very well. A good and honorable man. But I guess he's a liar because he doesn't fit in well with your agenda?

 

 

And it absolutely DOES make a difference that there are barely any minorities in Imperial holds. It is cool that the residents of Falkreath can welcome in the one High Elf priest of Arkay into their town, to look past his actions in the Great War. However, there is only one of him. You might be able to draw comparisons with Windhelm if there were, say--ten High Elves living in the town, but fact is, there are not. There is what, another lone Altmer in Morthal (the mage?), but everybody in town hates him and thinks he's a necromancer. There is... one Wood Elf and two Argonians in Solitude. Both Argonians are criminals and people think that they are shady; the Bosmer is sort of sleazy but the people do leave him alone. There are a pair of Bosmer living in Whiterun... and people do seem to like them. Markarth might be an example of Nord chauvinism but... the Empire already controls the hold! The Empire sanctions the oppression of the Forsworn. And it makes sense, as all they really want out of Markarth is the silver. That is why Margaret is there, isn't it? To obtain the deed to Cidhna Mine? The Empire doesn't care about the Forsworn, all they want is what's in the ground.

 

WRONG. The game presents only a few whatever, but the point still stands. Just like what happened in American, if you mistreat people just because of race... it.... ahhh..... doesn't matter at all because there's going to be hell to pay for it. I'm a little concerned at how your ethics are so loosely "focused" maybe? It doesn't matter if there's one Argonian whose a stranger or one million. You treat people how you would like to be treated. But yeah, that sh*t in Markath needs to stop but still MARKARTH serves as an excellent example of what happens when race relations break down. None of that should be going on. And it wouldn't be EXCEPT for ULFRIC. Empire couldn't have done it without him.

 

 

 

In any case, with final regard to the "Skyrim for the Nords" slogan, I will say this. While I in no way condone racism and, of course, believe that minorities (in Skyrim and in IRL) make any society better, Skyrim IS the homeland of the Nords. Not the Imperials, not the Bretons, not the Redguards, and not the Dunmer. I always answer Brunwulf Free-Winter's question with "Skyrim is big enough for everybody," but it is still the homeland of the Nords. Any nation on the planet expects immigrants to assimilate (within reason) to their culture when they arrive there. And truly, most immigrants see this as an opportunity to advance themselves within their new society. If you moved to Japan, would you not try your best to learn Japanese, to learn and respect Japanese culture and customs even though they are not your own? I would hope that you would. Now, Skyrim doesn't have to worry about language, which is great, but every race does have their own distinct culture. The Nords have their tradition and their "old ways," their virtues of valor and bravery, their great premium placed on honor, heroism, and speaking plainly. These traditions aren't just hedge mumbo-jumbo either, as evidenced by the existence of the realm of Sovngarde.

 

That's fine, I'm of Nord decent myself so, you're absolutely right.

 

Ulfric and the Stormcloaks have watched as Skyrim has become "soft" under the Empire, forsaking the traditions that gave rise to mighty Talos in exchange for the succor of chests of Imperial gold. They have watched as High Kings no longer have to prove themselves in honorable combat in order to accede to the throne, and how High Kings are hand-picked by Imperial advisers and vetted for both pliability and weakness. They have seen their jarls become flaccid and weak, accepting treasure from the Empire in exchange for their vote in the Moot. There is a reason that the Imperial racial ability in Skyrim is related to speechcraft and money-making, as they are a people that place a high premium on politics and intrigue, of managing and manipulating the affairs of others. They achieve through guile and subterfuge what they cannot achieve through valor, forthrightness, and military strength. Now, you might approve of these ways (there is much to be said for them, especially in the modern world), but these are not the ways of Skyrim and Skyrim is not the modern world. The love of gold and treasure have blinded too many of Skyrim's leaders to the glory of their heritage. These leaders are milk-drinkers suckling at the golden teat of the Imperial sow.

 

Ok, this is Stormcloak propaganda. You've bought into everything Ulfric has said. It's more or less conjecture. It is what it is. I don't care anything about this, this is all Ulfric's opinion. You're getting to much into it. Again racial profiling and economic biased. So if my Nord makes too much money, well I guess he's corrupt too. lol. It's just like the Stormcloaks to make a juvenile argument like this. They live in sh*t and blame EVERYONE else for their problems. They're all bitter and full of spite. Well, well, you've been successful and I've sat around complaining all day so YOU ARE now the reason for my problems. Utter nonsense. "Oh no, those are not the ways of Skyrim, in the old days nobody had any money until the Empire showed up." "Evil Empire bringing money into Skyrim." Seriously. So for the Nords who work their a$$e$ off, make money for their families, chopping wood all day .. instead of fighting and going off and getting themselves killed, they're "heretics now?" This is why we have a separation between church and state. To prevent INSANITY like this. This is also the issue we're having in America right now. Also, tradition does NOT suite every situation. Sometimes it's best to leave the past IN THE PAST. And if I recall correctly, the Imperials are very Militaristic. It's just they have this thing called ETHICS, like myself and would prefer a peaceful resolution than having unnecessary blood on their hands. Which is the best way to go. Remember from Braveheart, "It's our lips which makes us men." "Even a dog has courage." And I'm pretty sure most if not ALL of Skyrim's traditions have been preserved. ie The Moot, The Jarls rule independently, etc, etc, etc...

 

Again, Titus Mede II himself became soft after winning one of the greatest battles in Imperial history through genius tactics, not the entire Empire. This is more of Ulfric'c opinion. I never use ANYONE else's opinion in my arguments accept my own.

 

 

Thus, the Empire has failed to respect the history and merit of Skyrim's traditions. Even worse, they have actively attempted to subvert these ancient virtues and replace them with their own. The Empire respected the Tribunal when they annexed Morrowind. Likewise, they have made no attempt to deny the Hist in Black Marsh. I would argue (as the devil's advocate...) that it is the Empire that has failed to be tolerant of Skyrim, her traditions, and the Nords as a people--and not the other way around. This is why Skyrim rebels. They seek to remain the Nords of Skyrim and NOT the Nords of Greater Cyrodiil.

 

Empire has NOT failed to respect anyone's tradition. Not once. Ever. The Empire is VERY tolerant, like that idiot in Whiterun who stands around all day preaching a doctrine of hate against the Empire and uplifting Talos right IN THE MIDDLE OF TOWN... next to a GIANT STATUE OF TALOS. Yeah, couldn't have made that one up if I tried folks. The High Queen of Skyrim, who by the way, is being DENIED her right by TRADITION to the Thrown of Skyrim by the Stormcloak Jarls, has a shrine to Talos somewhere in her bedroom. The Empire is also probably the ONLY ones being Tolerant. For another example, the Empire for like 30 years, did not enforce the ban on Talos into people's lives until ULFRIC KEPT AGITATING ABOUT IT. Savy? Ulfric brought the Thalmor to Skyrim. It was him. The Stormcloaks are not Tolerant and the Thalmor damn sure aren't. However, when you have an Empire or the United States, to a certain degree you MUST learn the language and culture. You can bring your own but learn ours because YOU ARE A CITIZEN. Christ...

Edited March 15, 2012 by bigmagy1981

[sukeban]

@bigmagy

 

I like the Empire and don't want to see it arbitrarily destroyed. I lean toward the Stormcloaks, but I'm making devil's advocate arguments here. I had assumed that this was clear since I've stated as much in nearly every post. Please don't try and insult my ethics. I'm merely making an argument; I would ask that you refrain from making things personal when they are not meant to be.

 

Anyway--

 

The Stormcloaks are still not violent, nor racist, nor violently racist. They are biased toward Nordic culture because... they are Nords and they are in Skyrim, the homeland of the Nords.

 

In any case, Tullius betrays his own bias toward Imperial culture when he says things like "You Nords and your damned jarls," "Always about your Nord honor," and is continuously dismissive of Nordic culture, heritage, and values (locating the Jagged Crown, etc.). Even worse, he seems to be enamored with the practice of defiling the bodies of dead Nord warriors in some sort of disgusting display of Imperial machismo and power (good thing Ulfiic still has his head in Sovngarde). He also attempts to deny dead Stormcloak soldiers from receiving their ancient burial rites and prayers to Talos--all because he is either too much of an Imperial bigot to recognize their significance and validity or because is too blinded by his personal hatred of the Stormcloaks to temper his bloodlust with even a modicum of magnanimity. It should be readily apparent that neither of these qualities speak well of the man.

 

http://i678.photobucket.com/albums/vv146/gmosko/ulfricex5-1.jpg

http://i678.photobucket.com/albums/vv146/gmosko/ulfricex3-2-1.jpg

 

Seriously, eh? It is quite evident that Tullius absolutely does not care about the Nords as a people, he is only there to do his job and then get the heck out. Which is fine, I guess. I am sure that the members of the Thalmor patrols wish that they could get back to the Summerset Isles as well, but alas, they have jobs to do. Tullius could go about his job in a much more sensitive manner, of course, but he chooses not to do this. He is an arrogant Imperial looking down his nose at the Nords... or, in other words, he is biased toward his own--that is, Imperial--culture. Which, again, makes sense... except for the fact that he is in Skyrim, not Cyrodiil, attempting to impose his own values upon the Nords.

 

Ulfric: “I’m not about to hand Skyrim over to a corrupt and dying empire.

 

Tullius: Skyrim doesn’t belong to you, Ulfric!

 

Ulfric: No, but I belong to her.”

 

So, what then is Tullius attempting to argue? That Skyrim belongs to the Empire (Cyrodiil) or that Skyrim belongs to the Nords, just not to those Nords that believe that Skyrim should be able to speak for itself? In any event, what makes Tullius so dang sanctimonious that his position is correct, that Skyrim cannot decide its own fate or that only those Nords who are pro-Empire have the right to decide what is best for Skyrim? Just because a territory has historically been governed by an empire does not mean that that territory must remain a piece of that empire forever. Look no further than the United States. England could have made all the same claims that Tullius makes in favor of America remaining in its Empire--would you rather we be singing "God Save the Queen" instead of "The Star-Spangled Banner?" Probably not. And don't let popular culture fool you, in no way were an overwhelming majority of Americans supportive of the American Revolution, at least not when it first began. Many American colonists remained loyal to the British Empire until the bitter end, and many were slain by the rebellious colonists for their loyalty. Yet somehow this is different than the situation in Skyrim? Somehow the very real persecution of pro-British American colonists (the origins of tar-and-feather) is okay, whereas the "hurtful words" of the Stormcloaks with respect to the Imperial Army and the Thalmor elves are somehow absolutely unforgivable.

 

Sounds to me like a double-standard, yo.

 

You might say that what Tullius believes isn't really important, that so long as he does not go overboard forcing it upon other people, it doesn't really matter what he personally believes. In which case... please do extend this same courtesy to Ulfric and the rest of the Stormcloaks. They may say hurtful things (as do the Imperials...) about their enemies, but until they actually begin to act upon their words, it doesn't really matter. Or, "Talk is cheap," as they say.

 

Indeed, the Stormcloaks do not have any "Grand Plan" for the extermination of the non-Nords in Skyrim and there is absolutely no evidence to suggest that Ulfric is hiring (??!) bandits to attack the Dunmer and Khajiits. If you're going to use the Eastmarch caravan wreckage as an example, let me toss out a few more. If memory serves... isn't there another ambushed Khajiit caravan on the road from Whiterun to Dragonbridge? Isn't there also a caravan that was the victim of a Falmer attack? My only point is that Skyrim is dangerous, that things--bad things--happen along the roadways, all the time. Absent any sort of eye-witnesses or proof, however, you can't really say what happened to any of them, let alone try and ascribe some sort of a motive, nefarious or otherwise.

 

In any case, Brunwulf says that Ulfric ignores bandit attacks on the Dunmer--and he probably isn't lying. My position on this is that Ulfric has it wrong, that he should send guards to investigate crimes committed against all of his people, regardless of their race. So I'm not on his side on this one. But, if you'll indulge me, let's look at it from Ulfric's perspective--just for fun. Okay, there is a war on, a big war, lots of people--lots of Nords--dying on both sides in the conflict. Ulfric is the leader of one side, the big boss general, fighting for the liberation of Skyrim. The "city guards" of Windhelm are members of the Stormcloak regular army, a body which Ulfric directly commands. He has been busy gathering all of his strength for the decisive push on Whiterun, the pivotal Imperial hold in the middle of the map. He has been so busy and so focused on bolstering his forces for the attack on Whiterun he has... pretty much allowed the crime rate in Windhelm to soar. He has bigger fish to fry than worrying about little things like, oh--the "Butcher" of Windhelm, that insane serial killer who has been making a habit of killing young Nord women for the last several months. The situation has gotten out of hand, but the city guard says that there is little that they can do with the war on. Viola Giordano goes so far as to say, "What's the point in winning the war if there's nothing left of Windhelm due to the Butcher?" And she is right.

 

In any case, it seems to me like Ulfric is an equal-opportunity laggard when it comes to enforcing the law around Windhelm. Truth is, it is mainly Nord women who are being killed around town, not the Dunmer. Ulfric might not send the town guard out into the wilds to find the pillaging bandits, but that's tame compared to the fact that he can't even be bothered to catch a serial killer within the walls of his own city. For all he knows (or cares) Galmar could be the serial killer, but we would never know it because he never bothers to investigate. What this sounds like to me is that Ulfric has gotten a bit carried away with his preparations for the war, that he is neglecting his duty as a jarl to protect ANY of the people actually living within his hold. However, he also has fewer resources to work with than the Empire does, so one might say that he is doing the best with what he has. Personally, I share the view of Viola, that he should be paying more attention to the citizens of his hold. Maybe if he had caravans from Cyrodiil loaded with chests of Imperial gold he could afford to hire a few more guards....

 

On the other side of the Windhelm coin, however, is the fact that most people in Windhelm seem to be getting along just fine, regardless of their race--and even with a serial killer on the loose. Just counting NPCs we have one Altmer alchemist (Nurelion) and his Imperial assistant (Quintus), another Altmer shop-keeper (Niranye), three more Altmer stable-masters (Alfarinn, Arivanya, and Ulundil), and whole passel of miscellaneous Imperials (Aretino, Calixto, Adonato, Adelaisa, Orthus, and Viola), none of whom complain about anything and whom all appear to be living happy lives (well, maybe Calixto isn't really happy...) under Ulfric's rule. Heck, even amongst the Dunmer there are really only a small handful that seem to be angry. Most of the Dunmer seem to be more interested in making money than they are about the perceived racial injustices in Windhelm. Personally, I admire the optimistic spirit expressed by the Dumner farmer, Belyn Hlaalu, when he says things like, "The best way for us to earn the Nords' respect is through hard work." I think this because... he is probably totally right. The Nords have made it difficult for the Dunmer to really express what awesome people they really are, but that doesn't mean that they should just give up and accept things the way that they are. Hlaalu is one of my favorite Windhelm NPCs because he is putting his ideas into practice by owning a farm, by working hard, by hiring a Nord woman to work for him--and by treating her very, very fairly. This is the path toward improving race-relations in Windhelm, Dunmer and Nord working together--and working hard--for the benefit of all.

 

What is decidedly not helpful, however, are attitudes like those of Ambarys Rendar, who is a bigot on the scale of Rolff Stone-Fist, but bigoted toward the Dunmer. Seriously, whenever I walk into the Corner Club and I hear "Oh great, another Nord... what brings you slumming it to the Grey Quarter?" I just want to shout "WTF is your problem, man?" Then, when he starts talking about, "I won't care about the Butcher until he takes one of us Dunmer; it's fine if he is only killing the Nords" I want to ask him why he bothers to stay in Skyrim if he truly hates it and the Nords so much. Hlaalu again brings the wisdom, stating that "Too many Dark Elves in Windhelm complain about the way that they're treated, what good does complaining do?" Ambarys' talk is cheap, but Hlaalu is walking the walk and backing up the talk that he talks. Ambarys is just another flapping jaw reinforcing all the negative stereotypes that Nords have about the Dunmer--doing absolutely nothing to advance their cause in Windhelm. Luckily, most Dunmer don't share the radical views of the bigoted Ambarys. This is a positive sign for Windhelm's future.

 

In any case, there is probably more racial diversity in Windhelm than there is in all of the Imperial holds combined. And while it is true that discriminating against even one individual is far from okay, it also true that it is easier to be tolerant when there are fewer people to be tolerant of. Having just one minority member within a group is often something of a diversion (witness "The Token Black Guy" in most American comedies), yet having them in larger numbers can elicit fear from the majority that their demographic and way of life are under attack. Witness the reaction in France and England to growing levels of Middle Eastern immigrants. Sweden is beginning to have issues with this as well. Witness this same phenomenon happening here in the United States with Latin Americans (and before them Italians, Poles, the Irish, etc.). Germany may or may not have the same "problem" with Turks. And Italy did not want streams of Libyan refugees entering their country when we were busy overthrowing Ghadafi. My point is that it is easy for countries like Norway to accept token amounts of political refugees and then to harp about racism in the rest of the world, but it becomes significantly less easy to do this when said refugees begin account for a significant percentage of the population (as has happened in Sweden). I'm not trying to say that Norway is wrong to point out racism where it exists (it is right), rather that they are dealing with issues that they have never really experienced for themselves. It would be like me talking about what I would do if I were ever in a war. I can talk and talk and talk about how brave I think I would be, but it doesn't really mean anything until I am actually in the war putting my rhetoric into practice.

 

You see what I mean? I'm just trying to be honest here. It is certainly great to have high ideals (I have high ideals too!), but sometimes you just can't make apples-to-apples comparisons unless you really have experience with what it is you're talking about. I would never presume to lecture a soldier as to the best way to fight a war.

 

In any case, this post is certainly long enough :)

Edited March 16, 2012 by sukeban

[StormHammer81]

Amen and Amen. (Pics)

 

LMAO @ Good 'ol Tullius. Well, he's only there temporarily. Elisif and crew take over when the smoke clears. Which I think is a much, much better deal than the two d*ckless lunatics in Windhelm.

 

You know though... if I recall correctly, Ulfric says something "odd" to Tullius just before the end. Yeeaahh........ Tullius starts talking like, "This is exactly what they wanted (Thalmor)" and something else, then Ulfric says in a dead-serious tone, "You Just Said It." Like Ulfric is with the Thalmor and he's enjoying rubbing it in Tullius' face right at the end. I don't need that to convince me, just saying.

 

I mean, I hear you but with something like that, I don't blame the Empire for mounting Ulfric's head on a pike. Especially when Ulfric and friends were talking about running a sword through Jarl Balgruff's gullet and raping his city, making a fool out of him. And Jarl B of Whiterun is NEUTRAL!!! He even allows Talos worship in his city!!! WTFH!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!? More of this, "Whoever is Not with us is Against us B$." Ulfric is EVIL. Maybe at least for me... that is the last piece of the puzzle. That's it. Not the Forsworn... In attacking Whiterun, Ulfric becomes the enemy of Skyrim. Because, Jarl B embodies EVERYTHING and then some that Ulfric and crew consider traditional and how a true Nord is supposed to be. But it's not about that, oh no. You can be right, but if you don't follow Ulfric, then YOU are the enemy. Even if you're not an Imperial. This is NOT, again I say one last time, NOT how a True High King of Skyrim should act. This is someone in it for themselves and their agenda. And if I might also add, the Thalmor are also the exact same way.

 

So, mounting his head on a pike would send the PROPER message to the Thalmor and to the rest of 'em. I can't prove it 100% but I KNOW Ulfric is with the Thalmor.

 

Another thing too, Ulfric gave up his rights as a citizen of the Empire when he DECLARED WAR on it. There are also, "Halls of the Dead" in every city in Skyrim, Imperial or otherwise.

 

Ulfric can also be a d*ck too, it's not just Tullius. Tullius cares, the man is under ENORMOUS stress I'm sure. In fairness, you have to be tough. You have to be, it comes with the territory.

 

But your attack on Tullius really does not make him or the entire Empire or the Imperial leadership necessarily bad. Once again, you seem to be splitting hairs over this stuff.

 

Tullius is looking at the big picture and is sick of their B$. I mean seriously man, the fate of ALL of Tamriel, literally millions of lives hangs in the balance and all you guys can talk about... is yourselves and what happened hundreds of years ago. I can tell you this, Tullius sees what is going to happen if the Stormcloaks get their way. He sees the end of everything and doesn't understand how these guys can sit and complain about their traditions and their beloved land when EVERYONE'S a$$ is on the line. Lot more at stake here than Skyrim.

 

That's like you and I are on a plane that's about to Crash and I'm trying to get us a Parachute and you keeping arguing with me because I insulted your mother. By the time you win the argument, we're both DEAD.

 

Anyways,

 

Kool bro-ham. That hits me where I live :dance:

 

LONG LIVE THE EMPIRE

Edited March 16, 2012 by bigmagy1981

[mattlittlej]

Well, I did

kill the Emperor while doing the Dark Brotherhood quests.

And I am playing as a Nord....