Thor. Posted March 21, 2012 Share Posted March 21, 2012 YA, YA... MAkes me wanna do the Dark Brotherhood, they had the right idea... All Hail Sithis :biggrin::devil: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StormHammer81 Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 (edited) @mattlittlej & Thor. Correct. Someone has to answer for this mess. And the way I see it, if I'm going to spare the Empire, then his a$$ at the very least, must pay. He signed the treaty and renounced Hammerfell. Titus Mede II must go. Besides, if you're going to mascarade as the Dark Brotherhood and walk around in their backyard, then you owe them anyways. Simply put, it's all around the right thing to do. Edited March 22, 2012 by bigmagy1981 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victor111 Posted March 25, 2012 Share Posted March 25, 2012 @bigmacy Dear Sir, please, stop insulting your own intelligence by posting totally inapropriate nonsense like this. It makes me laugh, while I was thinking we were having a serious discussion about which is the most `right´ side of the two. Your past few posts just made me believe stronger in the Stormcloak cause because what you display is a certain Imperial disregard of things (in my opninion). Amen and Amen. (Pics) LMAO @ Good 'ol Tullius. Well, he's only there temporarily. Elisif and crew take over when the smoke clears. Which I think is a much, much better deal than the two d*ckless lunatics in Windhelm. Tullius is only here temporarily? Lol What makes you say that? Does that change the fact that Tullius is actually the bigger d*ck? No. It does NOT. Tullius will still be there if Eilisif takes over. Talking about Elisif: last time I checked Elisif didn't have a d*ck. Calling the two persons who are prepared to take up arms and fight for what they believe in `d*ckless lunatics´ is not going to help your argument. Yeah, I bet Galmar Stone-Fist especially is a real pussy. The imperials are the d*ckless lunatics here, since another weak ruler will be helping the empire further into decay. I mean, I hear you but with something like that, I don't blame the Empire for mounting Ulfric's head on a pike. Especially when Ulfric and friends were talking about running a sword through Jarl Balgruff's gullet and raping his city, making a fool out of him. And Jarl B of Whiterun is NEUTRAL!!! He even allows Talos worship in his city!!! WTFH!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!? More of this, "Whoever is Not with us is Against us B$." Ulfric is EVIL. Maybe at least for me... that is the last piece of the puzzle. That's it. Not the Forsworn... In attacking Whiterun, Ulfric becomes the enemy of Skyrim. Because, Jarl B embodies EVERYTHING and then some that Ulfric and crew consider traditional and how a true Nord is supposed to be. But it's not about that, oh no. You can be right, but if you don't follow Ulfric, then YOU are the enemy. Even if you're not an Imperial. This is NOT, again I say one last time, NOT how a True High King of Skyrim should act. This is someone in it for themselves and their agenda. And if I might also add, the Thalmor are also the exact same way. Ulfric tried to have a pieceful solution and make Jarl Balgruuf join him peacefully. However, he did not succeed. Clearly Ulfric didn't want to shed blood over Whiterun, but it was inevitable. It's war. This idiot Balgruuf however, probably bribed with imperial gold, chooses to side with the empire and shed the blood of his own people, while initially he was neutral. He could have sided with the Stormcloakes, he didn't. So this does not make Ulfric the enemy of Skyrim OR EVIL. Uflric is NOT EVIL. The THALMOR are evil. But that's something the imperials like you seem to keep forgetting...Your argument that Ulfric declares anyone who is not following him an enemy of the Stormcloakes is INVALID. He does not and there is no evidence to back this up. About the High King's behaviour. I guess you're trying to say the High King should let the empire decay and crumble away. Yes, that IS how a true King of Skyrim should behave right? So, mounting his head on a pike would send the PROPER message to the Thalmor and to the rest of 'em. I can't prove it 100% but I KNOW Ulfric is with the Thalmor. Mounting Tullius' head on a pike, THAT would send the Thalmor and the rest of 'em a proper message. I CAN prove it 200% that I know Ulfric is NOT with the Thalmor. Just read the Thalmor Dossier on Ulfric Stormcloak. It absolutely states that Ulfic is not their puppet. Discussion over. Ulfric can also be a d*ck too, it's not just Tullius. Tullius cares, the man is under ENORMOUS stress I'm sure. In fairness, you have to be tough. You have to be, it comes with the territory. Haha LOL. It was you who intially said Ulfric was the d*ck. Now the tables are turned is seems. It appears as Tullius has the major flaws in his character instead of Ulfric.`Tullius cares, the man is under ENORMOUS stress I'm sure.´ Well, all the evidence proves the absolute CONTRARY. He does NOT care. And I don't care wether he is under enormous stress or not. Probably nothing compared to Ulfric. But your attack on Tullius really does not make him or the entire Empire or the Imperial leadership necessarily bad. Once again, you seem to be splitting hairs over this stuff. I thought initialy people wouldn't join the Stormcloakes because they thought Ulfric to be an idiot. So what you say about the Empire also goes for the Stormcloakes. Arguments regarding the leader should not efect the justice of the cause. So if you can't prove somebody's argumentation wrong you just call is `splitting hairs´?? A lot of imperial arguments would be `splitting hairs´ about racism in Windhelm and stuff I recall. Tullius is looking at the big picture and is sick of their B$. I mean seriously man, the fate of ALL of Tamriel, literally millions of lives hangs in the balance and all you guys can talk about... is yourselves and what happened hundreds of years ago. I can tell you this, Tullius sees what is going to happen if the Stormcloaks get their way. He sees the end of everything and doesn't understand how these guys can sit and complain about their traditions and their beloved land when EVERYONE'S a$$ is on the line. Lot more at stake here than Skyrim. You act like the empire is the only thing stopping the Thalmor from taking over all of Tamriel. It is not. In fact, it is the empire that let the Thalmor in. The peoples of Tamriel could still unite and fight the elves when the need comes. Nothing proves the contrary. Even more, there is proof that Ulfric will take the initiative and bring the fight to them, thus suprising the Thalmor and taking advantage of their arrogance. The fate of all Tamriel definitely does luckily not depend on an decaying empire. What many imperials do not realise is that if the empire wins the civil war, it will not be like the rebirth of the reign of Talos. That is wishful thinking. No, after the civil war the decay of the empire will just hasten, and it will crumble even more. That is the reality, logical thinking. There will be revolts too, since the Nords are a proud and stubborn people. The Thalmor will tighten their grip on Skyrim, preparing to strike. No, I will not side with the Empire. Also funny: most imperials agree on killing Titus Mede II because he is the idiot that brought so much disaster upon Skyrim. So, what they say is killing their own leader, thus comitting HIGH TREASON against their OWN FACTION LEADER. Seriously WTF, then you might as well side with the Stormcloaks, because were gonna get rid of not only Titus but also other morons like the Thalmor Ambassador. You know, just comitting the worst crime possible against your own cause just to save it. Very honorable choice indeed. Atop of that you choose to supoort a faction that not only denies it's own heritage, but also it's own history. It's very own Pater Patriae. It's own God! All honour is gone from the empire. That might explain why the Stormcloakes want to hold on to the old and noble ways of the world. A good day to you sir. "Throw off the shackles of Imperial oppression. Do not bow to the yoke of a false emperor. Be true to your blood, to your homeland." - Nords Arise! ALL HAIL THE STORMCLOAKES FREEDOM OR SOVNGARDE! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StormHammer81 Posted March 28, 2012 Share Posted March 28, 2012 (edited) @Victor111 To be honest, your last post was INAPPROPRIATE. In case you were not aware, THIS IS AN OPEN FORUM. Not everyone feels the same way you do. I was going to just drop the whole thing, several times, but you keep coming back, AGITATING ABOUT IT just like Ulfric. And if you think I'm stupid enough to believe that Ulfric is interested in a peaceful solution to anything, then woo-hoo I want some of whatever in the h*ll it is you're drinking. You are splitting hairs and also seem to be the type of juvenile person who refuses to accept someone else's different views or beliefs on something. Also, the Thalmor Embassy Dossier DOES NOT exhonorate Ulfric. This part of the Discussion is most definitely NOT going to be over, not unless a DLC or some official lore says otherwise. Here is the Dossier on Ulfric: Status: Asset (uncooperative), Dormant, Emissary Level Approval Description: Jarl of Windhelm, leader of Stormcloak rebellion, Imperial Legion veteran Background: Ulfric first came to our attention during the First War Against the Empire, when he was taken as a prisoner of war during the campaign for the White-Gold Tower. Under interrogation, we learned of his potential value (son of the Jarl of Windhelm) and he was assigned as an asset to the interrogator, who is now First Emissary Elenwen. He was made to believe information obtained during his interrogation was crucial in the capture of the Imperial City (the city had in fact fallen before he had broken), and then allowed to escape. After the war, contact was established and he has proven his worth as an asset.The so-called Markarth Incident was particularly valuable from the point of view of our strategic goals in Skyrim, although it resulted in Ulfric becoming generally uncooperative to direct contact. Operational Notes: Direct contact remains a possibility (under extreme circumstances), but in general the asset should be considered dormant. As long as the civil war proceeds in its current indecisive fashion, we should remain hands-off. The incident at Helgen is an example where an exception had to be made - obviously Ulfric's death would have dramatically increased the chance of an Imperial victory and thus harmed our overall position in Skyrim. (NOTE: The coincidental intervention of the dragon at Helgen is still under scrutiny. The obvious conclusion is that whoever is behind the dragons also has an interest in the continuation of the war, but we should not assume therefore that their goals align with our own.) A Stormcloak victory is also to be avoided, however, so even indirect aid to the Stormcloaks must be carefully managed. He has what? PROVEN his worth as an ASSET. Contact remains a possibility. Indirect aid to Stormcloaks. The ASSET should be considered DORMANT. Tyring to protect Ulfric from Death. An Imperial Victory HARMS our overall position in Skyrim. OMG I hadn't even though about that until just this second. If an Imperial Victory HARMS the Thalmor's position in Skyrim, then there you have it. That one sentence SAYS a lot. You want to talk about puppets? ULFRIC IS THE PUPPET. :D "It's Not Easy Being Green..." :dance: THE EMPIRE IS THE ONLY THING KEEPING THE THALMOR FROM DESTROYING EVERYTHING. Tullius is a GOOD MAN and an excellent leader. Again, OMW if you had actually met the man, he would have told you he is the Empire's problem solver. He BACKS the HIGH QUEEN. The legitimate ruler of Skyrim. He is the military governor because Ulfric MURDERED his friend, the former High King Torygg."Throw off the shackles of Imperial oppression. Do not bow to the yoke of a false emperor. Be true to your blood, to your homeland." - Nords Arise! This is SOOOO Cute. Awwwwww. To bad it's pure B$. Oooooppression. uuuuuuuu ONCE AGAIN THERE WAS NO OPPRESSION OR THALMOR IN SKYRIM UNTIL ULFRIC MURDERED THE HIGH KING AND STARTED CUASING PROBLEMS!!! REMEMBER THE MARKARTH INCIDENT!!! THE DAMM THALMOR USED ULFRIC, AT THAT TIME THEIR AGENT OR ASSET, TO HAVE A REASON TO ENTER SKYRIM AND SETUP THEIR JURISDICTION THERE!!!! ULFRIC'S COLLABORATION WITH THE THALMOR CAUSED ALL OF THIS!!!!!!! o_O Furthermore, it also seems like you are getting further away from the scope of your argument and are like, getting lost in the woodwork. I mean seriously man, Titus Mede II has failed EVERYONE. He needs to go. Sure, I would be for him retiring or otherwise stepping down, but that's not an option here. Yes, we Imperials are willing to sacrifice Titus Mede II for the good of the Empire. Isn't that what he did to us when he sacrificed the Empire for the good of himself, another thing you said too... It is a fair trade. Again lol if you can't see that then... Titus Mede II committed treason with the signing of the White Gold Concordant. Seriously. :wallbash: I would rather see the fate of Tamriel hang on the Empire, than face almost certain DOOM at the hands of the Thalmor or Ulfric. "If Ulfric gets his way, he would ship everyone whose not a Nord out of Skryim." - Bruunwolf guy Please, kindly STOP HARASSING my posts and let this end it. To be honest, I was just kidding about the last post, I meant it but just jokingly. Seriously, this is the reason why I don't go to church anymore. Some of the people in there just go crazy over stuff like this and there's no reasoning with them. Forget it. :hurr: Let it end and move on and so will I. THE MORE YOU TRY AND ARGUE WITH ME, THE STRONGER THE CASE GETS FOR JOINING THE EMPIRE. :thumbsup: "...obviously Ulfric's death would have dramatically increased the chance of an Imperial victory and thus harmed our overall position in Skyrim" :dance: :dance: :dance: LONG LIVE THE EMPIRE Edited March 28, 2012 by bigmagy1981 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sukeban Posted March 28, 2012 Share Posted March 28, 2012 (edited) "A Stormcloak victory is also to be avoided, however, so even indirect aid to the Stormcloaks must be carefully managed." --------------------- If an Imperial Victory HARMS the Thalmor's position in Skyrim, then there you have it. That one sentence SAYS a lot.@Bigmagy Heh, somehow I knew that Victor's post would draw you back into the fray. Something about the Godfather movies and "Every time I think I'm getting out, they come and drag me back in..." or something to that effect. I think that we had both been content to let otherwise sleeping dogs lie. In any case, I acknowledge beforehand that I'm not going to change your opinion, and I am also pretty well sure that you aren't going to change mine either. And that's totally okay. But, I'd just like to set the record straight about what the Thalmor Dossier does and does not say about Ulfric Stormcloak, because I think that you have rather misrepresented it. In essence, the Thalmor want the Civil War to continue--and that is all. They do not want either Ulfric to win (see your own quoting of the Dossier), nor--obviously--do they want to see the Imperials defeat Ulfric. They want a stalemate, and they will do anything within their power to ensure that the Civil War remains stalemated, that humans continue to kill other humans--sapping their strength for when the Thalmor finally do decide to strike. However, as per the Dossier, Ulfric is no more "working" for the Thalmor than Tullius or Titus Mede II or any of the commanders of the Legion are. Either side has the option to lay down their arms and accept the victory of the other, but neither side is willing to take this step. The Dossier says that Ulfric was, at the time of the Markarth Incident, considered to be an "asset" of the Thalmor. "Asset" =/= "Agent." It means that the interests of the Thalmor temporarily aligned with the interests of Ulfric--at Markarth. It means that the Thalmor had a "strategic interest" in seeing a civil war in Skyrim (see above), and they knew that Ulfric's ousting of the Forsworn meant reinstating the worship of Talos in Markarth as payment--which would force the hand of the Empire to crack down on said worship, which would then serve as a pretext for a wider pro-Talos rebellion in Skyrim. It's really simple. But, let's remember, it wasn't the Thalmor that said, "Hey Ulfric, please attack Markarth for us and start a civil war;" rather it was the Jarl of Markarth himself who asked Ulfric's militia for help in reclaiming their city from the occupying Forsworn. Was the Jarl of Markarth an "asset" to the Thalmor--absolutely. Does that mean that he was a secret agent working on their behalf--no way. And neither was Ulfric. Ulfric was pro-Talos and was resentful that His worship had been officially banned by the Empire. However, had it not been for the Forsworn and the Jarl of Markarth (really, all the Nords of Markarth...), he would have had no cause to attack to the city and the Civil War would not have began when it did (if it began at all). So many, many people are at "fault" (if you look at it that way) here, from the Jarl and nobility of Markarth to Ulfric to Titus Mede II himself for signing the Concordat in the first place. Why are all of these individuals not considered to be "assets" of the Thalmor? Ah yes, because he was captured during the War. And tortured. By Elenwen (which is why he hates her so). Like anybody, he eventually "broke" under the strain (don't try to tell me that you wouldn't) and told them... something. The Thalmor then made him feel guilty about giving them that information and he was allowed to "escape"--seemingly in "payment" for his information. There's nothing wrong with his escaping, what was he supposed to do instead, ask to be tortured and imprisoned forever? Then there is the ambiguous (likely intentionally so) part about "establishing contact" and "proving his worth." However, "establishing contact" can mean, anything really. A note? A personal visit from Elenwen (unlikely!)? A Thalmor diplomat? Who knows? Not you nor I nor anybody else. And who is to say then, that Ulfric didn't just crumple up the note and angrily toss it into the fire? Again, see the above. And finally he "proves his worth"--but how? Because of Markarth? Again, there is enough blame for Markarth to go several times around. It is impossible to know if the Thalmor had any part to play in that (putting Ulfric into contact with the displaced Jarl?), only that they approved of the end result. That is what it means to "prove his worth," but who knows if they were active participants or if they just sat back and watched as Ulfric acted on his own accord. Who knows? We need DLC to figure it out. But, if Ulfric was such a friend of the Thalmor (which only makes sense if you believe in Stockholm Syndrome), why did he suddenly shun them after Markarth? Why not accept their gold and weapons and magic training and proceed to dominate the Empire in the Civil War? I don't know, and neither do you. This then brings us to the present, where "aid could be considered only under extreme circumstances." This seems rather clear to me to read that the Thalmor would consider assisting the Stormcloaks only if the Stormcloaks were on the verge of defeat, i.e. ending the Civil War. It's impossible to really comment on this because it is all hypothetical. I will, however, mention the American assistance to the Mujahadeen in Afghanistan when they were fighting against the Soviets. We gave them advanced weaponry and they beat the Soviets, driving them out of the country. Fifteen years later, however, those same fighters (and their American-supplied weapons) were busy fighting against--and killing--us. It's called "blowback." And it means that it could potentially be wise for Ulfric to accept Thalmor assistance if it means winning the war and then using those same weapons against the Thalmor. The Thalmor could be defeated at their own game. Strategy is never as simple as it appears. Anyway, that's all I wanted to say. You two can go back to typing in all caps again. Actually, that's not true. I also wanted to say that your mod is really good, Bigmagy. I've been using OCS and have been loving it. You are very talented with all that scripting. Please do keep up the great work! Edited March 28, 2012 by sukeban Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StormHammer81 Posted March 28, 2012 Share Posted March 28, 2012 (edited) @sukeban Hehehe. Finally, someone who speaks my language :D That was... actually a pretty good argument. Very well then, let's call it even. I have other things to get back to anyways. Can't wait to see what the next DLC will bring. To be honest, I'm not even playing Skyrim right now because of some really odd glitch in the smithing, where I smith an iron dagger and go from lvl 1 to 52 smithing. Woo-Hoo! Now, that's what I call SkyForging!!! :dance: Yeah I know, OCS turned out really good. I enhanced the Imperials and Stormcloaks too, don't understand why Bethesda didn't think of some of this stuff already, but whatever. Like Warzones said, "Hey mom I went to Skyrim, been here for several months now and the trip sucked, everyone keeps talking about this war but I haven't seen a damm thing!!!" They should really have something where you get to fight Elenwen sometime. That would be kool. Later! "...obviously Ulfric's death would have dramatically increased the chance of an Imperial victory and thus harmed our overall position in Skyrim" :thumbsup: LONG LIVE THE EMPIRE Edited March 28, 2012 by bigmagy1981 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thor. Posted March 28, 2012 Share Posted March 28, 2012 (edited) LOOL your not alone in with that glitch, Ultra Sky forging to lv16 and beyond while Holding the iron backwards in 10 seconds, NOOW that's talent I can't wait to see what the next dlc will bring, Morrowind maybe :dance: lol seeI can't to wait and see What Bethesda thinks of the Stormcloaks vs Imperials, I wonder what side they are on :tongue: I'm hoping you become Emperor http://static.skyrim.nexusmods.com/imageshare/images/211744-1332899145.jpg Edited March 28, 2012 by Thor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thor. Posted March 28, 2012 Share Posted March 28, 2012 (edited) Oops double post Edited March 28, 2012 by Thor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StormHammer81 Posted March 29, 2012 Share Posted March 29, 2012 Hey guys, you know the Smithing glitch??? I went meticulously through my Load Order and traced it to "Silver Upgrades.esp" This appears to be the sole cause of the problem for me and removing this mod from my game fixed the issue. :dance: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moobacca Posted March 29, 2012 Share Posted March 29, 2012 (edited) For me which side I was on boiled down to one thing: Survival. The Empire becomes the only real choice. With any Elder Scrolls game I tend to pick the race of whatever land the setting is in. In Morrowind I was a Dunmer, Oblivion I was Imperial, Skyrim I'm a loyal Son of Skyrim and I'm going to do what's best for Skyrim. Ulfric is NOT what's best for Skyrim. It's very, very obvious that the Thalmor are biding their time until the next war starts, so Skyrim leaving the Empire plays right into their hands. Considering that the war between the Empire and the Thalmor ended in basically a stalemate and it took the combined forces of humans to even achieve that, how well do you think Skyrim will do if it stands alone when the Thalmor come knocking? Not very well. Now I know Ulfric is smart enough to realize this, or maybe not because he's instigated a civil war in the face of impending destruction by the elves. So that makes Ulfric either power hungry, or a completely short-sighted idiot. After seeing what Ulfric says if he wins... it's pretty obvious that he's both power hungry AND an idiot and hasn't even considered that Skyrim will be an easy target for the Thalmor. Ulfric has put every man, woman and child in danger of being enslaved or worse by the Thalmor just so he can be in charge. Killing High King Torygg was murder, Ulfric was in his prime, Torygg was barely a man and both knew this. How honorable is it really to challenge someone to a fight that you know you'll win easily? Ulric is a COWARD without any honor and even he says it wasn't a fair fight. He killed his king just because he could. That's not the mark of a good leader, that's the mark of a selfish, power hungry fool. I'm not even going to mention that he's a racist. Just take a walk in Windhelm and see for yourself. Go ask the Dunmer and Argonians how Ulfric and the Stormcloaks treat them. That's not someone I want to follow, EVER. Now you may argue that the Emperor is also a coward for signing the White-Gold Concordat, but what other choice did he have? It was either sign or be conquered, the Empire's citizens slaughtered or enslaved. How well do you think Skyrim would be doing under Thalmor rule? At least under the Empire you can worship Talos in secret, under the Thalmor I think it's safe to say we could make comparisons to the Nazis. In the meantime, the Empire could have been working to regain it's strength, but instead, Ulfric had to throw a temper tantrum to have his way. Hammerfell already bloodied the Thalmor pretty well kicking them out, if Skyrim, Cyrodiil, Highrock and Hammerfell could just ban together, maybe the Thalmor threat can be put down and people can worship whomever they wish. That's why I put down the Stormcloaks. Edited March 29, 2012 by moobacca Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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