The Great Imperial vs. Stormcloak Debate

[HighkingUlfricStormcloak]

Im Stormcloak117 just to let you guys know

 

TM II, cant resign now that he's dead.

 

Whiterun was neutral, Balgruuf sided with the Empire, which is the time when Heimskr gets jailed, so no more freedom of speech and religion.

 

Ulfric may be slightly selfish, but Talos was as well. Im sick of people bagging on Ulfric.

 

- He put his life on the line for the Empire and was captured as a prisoner of war

- His father was killed and he became Jarl after being freed from prison in Cidna Mine in Markarth

- He put his life on the line at Markarth for the Nords of Markarth (Talos massacred the Reachmen as well and slaughtered thousands of them during the battle of Old H"roldan)

- He returned to Windhelm and his people wanted justice and war, so now he's giving it to them

- He is unintentionally aiding the Thalmor

- He dislikes the lazy dunmer because they dont do sh*t, but he tolerates and likes the ones who work, Nurilion, Niranye, Luaffyn, Revyn Sadri, Ulundil, Idesa Sadri, Faryl Atheron, Arivanya etc. etc. Those arent all Dunmer but they are all Mer.

- He studied with the Greybeards

- He actually worships Talos

- He was captured by Imperial forces just before the beginning of TES V: Skyrim

- He honorably defeated Torygg in single combat

 

 

Ulfric isnt as bad as people like to think

 

The Empire's current state

 

- Crippled and depleted armed forces

- No Emperor

- Power struggle within Elder Council

- Banditry and drug lords rule in Cyrodiil

- Banning the worship of the man who founded the Empire

- Occupying the homeland of the people who saved it

- Attempting to build up forces to face a foe it cant beat

- The order that protects the Emperor is now disbanded

- Losing control in the remaining territories

- Struggling to maintain its own Economy

- Lost the will to fight

- Accepted terrible terms

- Lost the right to exist according to the Rule of Nations

- Did not provide for its peoples best interest and still isnt

- Current Dynasty doesnt have Amulet of Kings which signifies a real Tamrielic Empire according to Allesian rule.

- Allows for another government to kill its own citizens whenever they please without Imperial consent

- Wrongly accuses citizens of treason and either tries or succeeds in executing them (Rogvir and the Dovahkiin, Ulfric)

- The Stormcrown Interregnum was a civil war that allowed for the Mede Dynasty to take control

 

Hm. This is tough, I'd say this Empire is doing a fantastic job.

Edited March 2, 2013 by HighkingUlfricStormcloak

[HighkingUlfricStormcloak]

This is quoted from TES III: Morrowind, from the avatar of Talos, Wulf

 

"The Emperor is getting old. Don't know how much longer he'll hang on. So is the whole Empire, for that matter. Getting old, that is. The Emperor and the legions have held the Empire together for hundreds of years. It's been a good thing, by and large. But maybe it's time for a change. Time for something young and new. What? No idea. Because I'm old. Old dog doesn't get new ideas. But maybe young folks like you should try some new ideas. I don't know. Could be messy. But change is never pretty." - Wulf, Tiber Septim, Talos, Hjalti Early Beard, Stormcrown, Ysmir

 

This is before all the problems the Empire is facing currently, so the argument of "Well, Talos would side with the Empire because he founded it." is thrown right out the window.

Edited March 2, 2013 by HighkingUlfricStormcloak

[Gabryal]

My friend, you might as well give it up, if there is anything that this batch of Pro-Imperials have in common is an emotional attachment to their cause that is undeterred by facts.

 

You know facts like. Whiterun was never neutral, it only gave that appearance because Balgruuf knew that if he joined the Imperial side prematurely he'd have his own citizens killing each other.

 

Simple facts about Whiterun.

 

More than any other city in Skyrim, Whiterun is the least neutral, the citizenry is openly and roughly evenly divided by the conflict. If the War is an earthquake this is where the fault line is.

 

Unless we assume that Balgruuf is an incompetent ruler ( and he isn't ) it is obvious to him that there is no possible way that this war comes to an end without Whiterun getting involved, he will never join the Stormcloaks, this is well known, he and Ulfric have an old grudge, that being said Ulfric does have the decency to let Balgruuf know what's coming. He may not do it in the most diplomatic way, but he does give Balgruuf both the knowledge that Whiterun is going to be attacked, and the option to surrender without bloodshed. Since Balgruuf is, and will always be, an Imperial he of course refuses and so the Battle which he could have avoided but chose not to happened. I just hope that no one makes an argument that Balgruuf wasn't an Imperial from the start, they can of course, but it's just laughable.

 

A couple of facts to refute the claim that Balgruuf was ever neutral.

 

1) He refuses to allow Redguards hunting down a traitor who betrayed a city in Hammerfell to the Dominion into his city, and arrests at least one of them, yet he never bothers to investigate their claims, nor does he have a problem with -other- Redguards in his city, nor harboring the alleged traitor ( who turns out to be in fact a traitor, as evidence I present that if you turn her over you'll end up attacked by Dominion forces not long after )

 

2) His First Councilor is an Imperial who doesn't even pretend to respect the Nordic traditions

 

3) He doesn't even bother to look into Battleborn oppression of the Greymane's. The Battleborn's knew and perhaps had a hand in turning over a citizen of his city to the Dominion to be tortured to death. Despite pleas from the Greymane's that he look into it, he refuses, so it's left to the Dragonborn to do so. Not taking a side there at all, you know, only representing and treating with respect the pro-Imperial faction.

 

4) Whether in Victory or Defeat, he never once puts his people before the desires of Imperial troops, whereas with his replacement his first thought is -always- for his people first and Skyrim second. Balgruuf is the complete opposite, putting the Empire first and his people second. No no, he's not an Imperial puppet.

 

In some ways I'd say Balgruuf is the perfect Imperial, able to talk out of both sides of his mouth, give lip service to the " principles " of ruling without practicing any, cares more about his own wealth, power, and importance than the people he rules, and at the end of the day puts his own Pride before the good of his city. By Mede standards he'd make a good Emperor.

 

All of this of course is just another way of saying he's a Politician that says whatever he needs to to stay in power, and then gets all snotty and bitter if it's taken from him. His replacer is a man who never sought power, and in fact attempted to remain anonymous inside of Whiterun itself ( it's very very easy to miss him unless you don't do the Companion quests ) and even when you do meet him you have to press him very hard to even get him to admit he's a Greymane. He's not devious at all, he all but has to be shoved into taking up the Jarldom of Whiterun.

 

Not that any of the above matters, because like I said, this new breed of Pro-Imperials are much more interested in their emotionally invested opinions than any sort of logical progression of ideas, or facts of any kind. No matter how many times I say it, they don't listen, so I've more or less given up trying to reason with people who don't even understand what I'm saying. It's nice to see you again Stormcloak, and I like the new name.

 

I would like to say that there are some things I have no listed in this post because they are responses I gave to people who messaged me in private, however if those people do indeed bring up a private message into public debate, I can copypasta. It hardly matters though, as I said before, the thing that unites this new front of Pro-Imperials is like a label on a dyslexic food product " fact-free "

[HighkingUlfricStormcloak]

All I have to say is this

 

 

 

Talos Guide you.

[StormHammer81]

Annnd right on queue here comes the committee to put a stop to any open, honest discussion about the Empire and to carrel free-thinkers into their dogma.

 

@Gabryal, I don't really think we have an emotional anything, none of us really like the Empire if you must know.  If anything, you Stormcloaks seem more fanatical and more attached to Ulfric.  It's rare I lose my kool in these debates, and don't even get me started on how you've gone off on me and others who think similarly.

 

Just like Religion, woo-hoo the Thalmor sure knew where to hit us. Anytime you get Religion involved, logic and reasoning and understanding go right out the window and over the cliff and is replaced with emotion and personal feelings.

 

We have presented ourselves in a calm, reasonable fashion. If you will not hear us, no big deal.

 

Although I'm going to enjoy the day that a DLC is released basically proving the Empire's going to be ok, the WGC is no more and I don't have to listen to this B$ anymore.

 

Another thing Gabryal, I'm an old breed Imperial, not new. And I remember in the past you guys never would listen. And you know.... what really *bothers* me about this, is you have never admitted that you could be wrong. It's like either even as a Stormcloak, we have to think like you or nothing at all. That's a tad bit creepy, wouldn't you say?

 

Another thing I've noticed, Ulfric seems different than Galmar. Like there's a schism in the cause somewhere. Listen to Ulfric carefully in the beginning and it's like Galmar and Ulfric are not on the same page.

 

Hey Ulfric! Who's the fat chick with a cold? You know... that lip-service video. You are aware of course, that Ulfric surrendered at Darkwater Crossing right? Your tags.

 

 

The Empire is not perfect. I am not perfect. I do not have all the answers, I just know in my heart what is true to the best of my ability(s). I could be wrong, although I must do what I think is right. And I don't agree with Ulfric. The Emperor has made some mistakes, though I still respect him as my Emperor.

 

I am not afraid to admit any of this, because before you can move forward, you must be honest with yourself and as an Imperial, I do not condone the mistakes of the past. Nor am I afraid to take a stand for the Empire in order to right the wrongs. And unlike Ulfric, I am no servant of the Thalmor, I'm not their puppet.

 

 

 

btw - If Talos really wanted the Empire dead, he would not have given us a choice.

 

Annnd I think that's what the Religious crowd *fears* more than anything, even more than hell itself... people might not *choose* their way of thinking.

Edited March 2, 2013 by StormHammer81

[Gabryal]

Your words would lend more weight StormHammer if I actually believed you understood what " open, honest discussion " and " free-thinkers " and " dogma " actually mean. It's been well established you have no idea what oppression means, and the evidence so far is that you aren't too familiar with these terms either.

 

Frankly, while I'm willing to listen to just about anyone else and give a good defense to my arguments and concede that others have good points that I disagree with, with you it's the conversational version of an out of body experience.

 

Your comments couldn't make less sense to me if you were speaking in an African-Click language, and are far less interesting ( Wouldn't it be cool to give your kid a name with a *click* in it? ).

 

I don't if it's just that you aren't making sense, or if you're incapable of making sense. It's frankly painful to communicate with you on any level.

 

Do us all a favor too would you? Stop going back and editing your posts after someone has responded to them. You do it constantly, and it is always altered in such a way that you look less foolish but the response looks more so.

 

I am tired of having to remind people over and over and over to go back and check the date and time when you edit your posts so that the responses to those posts are understood to have actually made sense at some point. If you insist on continuing to edit your posts after responses, I hope people realize that it's a sign that even you have no idea what you're talking about.

 

In fact I hope that's what they think, because the only other option I can think of is that you aren't courageous enough to stand by your original statements and feel the need to edit them. Which is not exactly the shining example of " honest discussion " though considering what I said earlier, about you having no idea what the phrase means, you may not realize that. When you go back and change all your posts back to what they were before, then maybe I'll consider trying to have an " honest discussion " with you again, until then I consider you to be a fanatic, who justifies everything they do on the back idea of " I'm right and it's more important to show that than it is to stand by what I say ".

 

You're so emotionally invested in your opinion that you don't see reason, ever, yet another reason to not have a discussion of any measure whatsoever with you. When I bring up facts, concepts, logic, reason, analogy, or even theoretical arguments, they aren't aimed at you. I am not trying to convince you, in fact I don't want to convince you, I don't think you'd be a good example of someone who is on the Stormcloak side. I like you where you are doing damage to your own case every time you post.

 

The people I'm talking to are the people who actually have opinions based on a measure of fact, opinions that are open to being altered if new evidence comes to light. I'm sure someone out there will or would say something like " But Gabryal you aren't open to altering your opinion if new evidence comes up ". Actually, yes I am, I was at one point a die-hard Imperial, and then new evidence came to light and I switched sides. I've received no new evidence to support being on the Imperial side, I haven't even heard an original idea.

 

Most of what I hear are the exact same things I used to tell other people, I've heard nothing new about the Imperials in months, so why on earth would I change sides when presented with things I already knew? It's like being told " You know that lever on the side of the toilet? It makes it flush " when you're 30 years old. You can't help but want to say " Well Thank you! Up till now I've been going out and getting the hose and spraying the toilet to make the water go down ".

 

So frankly either offer something worth reading, or don't bother offering anything, because there -is- a level of annoyance to being told the same obvious, first glance, emotionally invested, surface only, and pre-mature arguments I've heard a thousand times before. It's a waste of time, it's a waste of energy, but hey just like my neighbor who spends his weekends on the corner with his sign yelling at cars about how Obama is a Kenyan, Muslim, Socialist, I don't expect you to stop, change your opinion, or listen to anyone else, ever.

 

You exist for me as only someone I rebuttal for the sake of people who are still in the process of making up their minds, people who actually understand what analogy is for example.

 

I'd say you were a lost cause for the Stormcloaks, but that would imply you were ever a cause.

 

Now, since you still haven't gotten the message.. and listen this time.

">

" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="295">

[Gabryal]

Example of what I just said about editing post.

 

Post #476, me, posted 4:29

Post #475, StormHammer, edited 4:33

 

See people? This is what Stormhammer means by " Honest Discussion "

[Gabryal]

Oh and people do me a favor and stop with the Historical analogies, just stop. I don't have time to correct them all, and certainly don't put something that you message with me in private and turn it around and put it on this thread as well. Do one or the other. I'm so damn tired of people getting things wrong, and horribly so. History in this world ( and too a good extent in TES as well since I spent the time actually looking things up ) is my realm, you come to play in it at your own peril.

 

Unless of course your purpose is to annoy me, because screwing up History for your own ends is one of the things that truly does annoy me. The amount of ignorance on the topic is truly astounding, and as a Historian ( this is my job people, it is how I make money ) it's appalling to think that people out there are willing to say things about the History of the human race that is only true in the most obtusely possible interpretation of events. History is made up of real people who lived through the times of which you are speaking of, and when you twist the events to your own end you do nothing but disrespect those who actually lived through those events.

 

Since the topic is almost exclusively based on Military History in this thread, it is attains an entirely new level of disrespect, since people died in these events that people twist to their own ends. In the information age it's generally expected that when you make a statement you know something about the information you're referencing.

[StormHammer81]

@Gabryal

 

 

Your words would lend more weight StormHammer if I actually believed
you understood what " open, honest discussion " and " free-thinkers "
and " dogma " actually mean. It's been well established you have no idea
what oppression means, and the evidence so far is that you aren't too
familiar with these terms either.

 

This is a personal attack, please calm yourself down and try to post a rational thought instead of coming onto this forum and venting your frustration against me.

 

Frankly, while I'm willing to listen to just about anyone else and
give a good defense to my arguments and concede that others have good
points that I disagree with, with you it's the conversational version of
an out of body experience.

You have never conceded anything, least that I have seen. No Stormcloak really has, you're not capable of seeing the situation in someone else's shoes.

 

 

Your comments couldn't make less sense to me if you were speaking in
an African-Click language, and are far less interesting ( Wouldn't it be
cool to give your kid a name with a *click* in it? ).

I really don't care, but because of your hostility towards myself, I am called to provide an answer. Again, I could care less about your opinion of me.

 

I don't if it's just that you aren't making sense, or if you're
incapable of making sense. It's frankly painful to communicate with you
on any level.

Personal attack.

 

 

Do us all a favor too would you? Stop going back and editing your
posts after someone has responded to them. You do it constantly, and it
is always altered in such a way that you look less foolish but the
response looks more so.

Ok, then why don't you do the same? I have seen several times when you have gone back and edited your post as well. Furthermore, I believe in a God that provides the illusion of "Choice" so if I choose to go back and change something, that's on me. Again, Hypocrasy, you Stormcloaks do the same thing all the time. You appear to be another do as I say, not as I do individual.

 

Furthermore, do us all? Not everyone agrees with the Stormcloaks. Therefore, you do not and never will speak for everyone on here. Neither do I, in fact.

 

I am tired of having to remind people over and over and over to go
back and check the date and time when you edit your posts so that the
responses to those posts are understood to have actually made sense at
some point. If you insist on continuing to edit your posts after
responses, I hope people realize that it's a sign that even you have no
idea what you're talking about.

 

How many people agree with my "simple" thoughts and opinions. If anyone has a question about any of my posts, I'll glady answer to it.

 

 

In fact I hope that's what they think, because the only other option I
can think of is that you aren't courageous enough to stand by your
original statements and feel the need to edit them. Which is not exactly
the shining example of " honest discussion " though considering what I
said earlier, about you having no idea what the phrase means, you may
not realize that. When you go back and change all your posts back to
what they were before, then maybe I'll consider trying to have an "
honest discussion " with you again, until then I consider you to be a
fanatic, who justifies everything they do on the back idea of " I'm
right and it's more important to show that than it is to stand by what I
say ".

 

People have every right to disagree with me, again, I believe in the Freedom to Choose. Really, it sounds like you're describing yourself in this paragraph. Seriously, go read his posts you can't tell this guy anything without having to read a novel the next day.

 

 

You're so emotionally invested in your opinion that you don't see
reason, ever, yet another reason to not have a discussion of any measure
whatsoever with you. When I bring up facts, concepts, logic,
reason, analogy, or even theoretical arguments, they aren't aimed at
you. I am not trying to convince you, in fact I don't want to convince
you, I don't think you'd be a good example of someone who is on the
Stormcloak side. I like you where you are doing damage to your own case
every time you post.

If I am doing damage to my own cause, why do you feel threatened by my posts? I put that simple little *awesome* video up and look where we're at? You've already said previously that my posts were dangerous to your cause, well you should be afraid. BECAUSE if it wasn't for people like me, very few would ever have seen the Empire's side to this and would have blindly followed the Stormcloaks. Ulfric is a Thug, Hypocrite, and Tyrant. Just because you fight for freedom does NOT give you license to become the OPPRESSOR. And if you think it's ok to oppress others just because you are a "self-proclaimed" liberator, then you have some serious problems.

 

You're right, I would not make for a very good Stormcloak, I ask questions.

 

 

The people I'm talking to are the people who actually have opinions
based on a measure of fact, opinions that are open to being altered if
new evidence comes to light. I'm sure someone out there will or would
say something like " But Gabryal you aren't open to altering your
opinion if new evidence comes up ". Actually, yes I am, I was at one
point a die-hard Imperial, and then new evidence came to light and I
switched sides. I've received no new evidence to support being on the
Imperial side, I haven't even heard an original idea.

Fine.

 

 

Most of what I hear are the exact same things I used to tell other
people, I've heard nothing new about the Imperials in months, so why on
earth would I change sides when presented with things I already knew?
It's like being told " You know that lever on the side of the toilet? It
makes it flush " when you're 30 years old. You can't help but want to
say " Well Thank you! Up till now I've been going out and getting the
hose and spraying the toilet to make the water go down ".

Yes, I'm 30 yrs old. Life goes on. But ok.

 

So frankly either offer something worth reading, or don't bother
offering anything, because there -is- a level of annoyance to being told
the same obvious, first glance, emotionally invested, surface only, and
pre-mature arguments I've heard a thousand times before. It's a waste
of time, it's a waste of energy, but hey just like my neighbor who
spends his weekends on the corner with his sign yelling at cars about
how Obama is a Kenyan, Muslim, Socialist, I don't expect you to stop,
change your opinion, or listen to anyone else, ever.

 

You can have my guns when you pry them out of my cold, dead finger MFer.

 

 

You exist for me as only someone I rebuttal for the sake of people
who are still in the process of making up their minds, people who
actually understand what analogy is for example.

 

I exist to bring hope where there was only darkness and one-sided conversation.

I exist to serve and protect the Empire's citizens until my dieing breath.

I exist to serve the Emperor and defeat his enemies.

I exist to uphold Imperial law and maintain good order and discipline in the Legion.

I exist because I choose to. The ability to make "choices" proves your existence and leaves your signature on this world.

 

 

I'd say you were a lost cause for the Stormcloaks, but that would imply you were ever a cause.

 

I never really was a Stormcloak, my heart was not into it. I had never "given" the crown to Ulfric. Although I have respect for Stormcloaks same as everyone. Face it Gabryal, you're unique... just like everyone else.

[StormHammer81]

 

Oh and people do me a favor and stop with the Historical analogies,

just stop. I don't have time to correct them all, and certainly don't

put something that you message with me in private and turn it around and

put it on this thread as well. Do one or the other. I'm so damn tired

of people getting things wrong, and horribly so. History in this world (

and too a good extent in TES as well since I spent the time actually

looking things up ) is my realm, you come to play in it at your own

peril.

 

Please, you've already said that Chamberlain is like TMII and then after him, Churchill comes along and cleans up after him. This alone proves that there is hope for the Empire. If the British Empire had a TMII of their own making and then a new "Emperor" comes along and cleans up his mess, then why not hope for Talos's Empire? Unless we weren't meant to see that part of it. Just your way of viewing history, right Gaby?

 

 

Unless of course your purpose is to annoy me, because screwing up

History for your own ends is one of the things that truly does annoy me.

The amount of ignorance on the topic is truly astounding, and as a

Historian ( this is my job people, it is how I make money ) it's

appalling to think that people out there are willing to say things about

the History of the human race that is only true in the most obtusely

possible interpretation of events. History is made up of real people who

lived through the times of which you are speaking of, and when you

twist the events to your own end you do nothing but disrespect those who

actually lived through those events.

Fine. Respect.

 

Since the topic is almost exclusively based on Military History in

this thread, it is attains an entirely new level of disrespect, since

people died in these events that people twist to their own ends. In the

information age it's generally expected that when you make a statement

you know something about the information you're referencing.

 

Correct.

 

 

I will keep my guns, my money and my freedom...

 

You keep the CHANGE.

Edited March 3, 2013 by StormHammer81