The Great Imperial vs. Stormcloak Debate

[Gabryal]

Wow you spent a lot of time on this, it's honestly funny. Let me see if I can be succinct and answer this.

 

 

 

This is a personal attack, please calm yourself down and try to post a rational thought instead of coming onto this forum and venting your frustration against me.

 

Take your bruised feelings and go elsewhere then, because life is a helluva a lot rougher than a forum. If I find you frustrating then that's on me, allowing you to frustrate me. That doesn't mean you get to throw away the reasons I've given as to why you do. I would argue that I more than frustrate you considering you're accusing me of personally attacking you. Let me straighten you out, it's less about you and more about every ignorant, illiterate person I've ever met in my life. You personally just happen to be a current representative of them. As far as my not believing you know what those things mean, it's not an attack, it's my personal opinion. I truly do not believe you know what they mean. That's not an attack it's an observation that happens to offend you. I guess I could add that to the list of things I don't think you understand, that commenting on your perceived flaws isn't an insult, it's only observation. If I attacked you personally I wouldn't do it that way, I'd just say you're an idiot ( which is not what I'm saying here, it's put out as an example, whether or not I think you're an idiot will not be brought up on this forum because it does nothing to continue the public discourse, so no saying I called you an idiot ) the fact I have to stop and explain this might also explain why you don't seem to understand the other things I mentioned.

 

 

You have never conceded anything, least that I have seen. No Stormcloak really has, you're not capable of seeing the situation in someone else's shoes.

 

I've conceded that Ulfric is a rascist, and power hungry, and many other things. If you don't know the things I've conceded it's because you didn't bother to look anything up about me before posting this. I'm not going to be held responsible that you made the choice to be ignorant. Next.

 

 

 

 

I really don't care, but because of your hostility towards myself, I am called to provide an answer. Again, I could care less about your opinion of me.

 

You accused me of personal attacks twice in one post? You really don't care about my opinion of me? Really?

 

 

 

Personal attack.

 

Only posting this because it's amusing to me coming on the heels of the one before it.

 

 

 

Ok, then why don't you do the same? I have seen several times when you have gone back and edited your post as well. Furthermore, I believe in a God that provides the illusion of "Choice" so if I choose to go back and change something, that's on me. Again, Hypocrasy, you Stormcloaks do the same thing all the time. You appear to be another do as I say, not as I do individual.

 

Furthermore, do us all? Not everyone agrees with the Stormcloaks. Therefore, you do not and never will speak for everyone on here. Neither do I, in fact.

 

Point out just once where I have gone back and edited my post to something other than what it was after you responded to it, just once. I may have fixed grammar, I may have fixed punctuation, but I've never changed the entire thing. You have, and do so constantly.

 

I have no interest of speaking for everyone out there, at least half the people wouldn't agree with me if I personally saved them from drowning. I'm not even speaking for the Stormcloaks at the moment because I have no need to, all I am doing is my best to keep the discourse honest and based in facts. I don't ask everyone to agree with the Stormcloaks, I just want the people who don't to have a good argument for not doing so. I've yet to hear one.

 

 

 

How many people agree with my "simple" thoughts and opinions. If anyone has a question about any of my posts, I'll glady answer to it.

 

It doesn't really matter how many people agree with you, the majority is rarely right, however what this has to do with the fact you go back and re-edit your posts I have no idea

 

 

People have every right to disagree with me, again, I believe in the Freedom to Choose. Really, it sounds like you're describing yourself in this paragraph. Seriously, go read his posts you can't tell this guy anything without having to read a novel the next day.

 

I'm not sure what you're trying to say. Are you saying I am attempting to prevent people from having a choice ( and if I do, please let me know how I go about doing so, I wasn't aware I had this power)? Or I'm a Stormcloak Fanatic? Or are you making fun of me because I'm literate, or is it that I'm doing my best to explain myself as clearly as possible?

 

 

 

 

If I am doing damage to my own cause, why do you feel threatened by my posts? I put that simple little *awesome* video up and look where we're at? You've already said previously that my posts were dangerous to your cause, well you should be afraid. BECAUSE if it wasn't for people like me, very few would ever have seen the Empire's side to this and would have blindly followed the Stormcloaks. Ulfric is a Thug, Hypocrite, and Tyrant. Just because you fight for freedom does NOT give you license to become the OPPRESSOR. And if you think it's ok to oppress others just because you are a "self-proclaimed" liberator, then you have some serious problems.

You're right, I would not make for a very good Stormcloak, I ask questions.

 

I'd love to see some of those questions, but more than that I'd like to see any quote from anywhere, ever, where I said that I feel threatened by any of your posts. Seriously, quote me where I said I felt threatened by you in any way, ever.

 

 

 

Yes, I'm 30 yrs old. Life goes on. But ok.

 

You can have my guns when you pry them out of my cold, dead finger MFer.

 

I just like quoting these two together. I am curious where the hell the NRA got involved, because this last year I withdrew my membership. I used to look up to Charleton Heston, until he debated a bar stool, and now they're stuck with a President who publicly implied he was going to assassinate the President. Also don't restrict your language, it's more offensive to me that you " MFer "'d me than if you'd actually said it.

 

Seriously though, the NRA? What brought that into an argument about Skyrim? I actually love to shoot, even if not everyone is into that, but you have left me utterly lost as to what the hell you're talking about here

 

 

 

I exist to serve and protect the Empire's citizens until my dieing breath.I exist to bring hope where there was only darkness and one-sided conversation.

I exist to serve the Emperor and defeat his enemies.

I exist to uphold Imperial law and maintain good order and discipline in the Legion.

I exist because I choose to. The ability to make "choices" proves your existence and leaves your signature on this world.

 

I think this should be the opening to a holy book somewhere, are you planning on founding a religion?

 

 

 

I never really was a Stormcloak, my heart was not into it. I had never "given" the crown to Ulfric. Although I have respect for Stormcloaks same as everyone. Face it Gabryal, you're unique... just like everyone else.

 

Does that have something to do with the DNA all those witches in lab coats are talking about? Where exactly did I imply in any way that I'm not unique? Hell I think I've been arguing that I -am- unique this whole time. Thanks for confirming though, until you did I thought I was Case Zero in a secret government cloning lab

 

 

 

Please, you've already said that Chamberlain is like TMII and then after him, Churchill comes along and cleans up after him. This alone proves that there is hope for the Empire. If the British Empire had a TMII of their own making and then a new "Emperor" comes along and cleans up his mess, then why not hope for Talos's Empire? Unless we weren't meant to see that part of it. Just your way of viewing history, right Gaby?

 

So your argument is that it's going to be ok because some mystery pinch hitter is going to come in and fix all the massive screw ups the Empire has had under the Reign of the Mede's? See cleaning up only works if you have someone clean up immediately after the mess has been made, it's infinitely harder to fix it a decade after the fact. Following your reasoning though I suppose Ulfric could defeat the Empire in Skyrim, march on Cyrodil, and clean up the mess...

 

That was meant to be Sarcastic, I know Ulfric is no Churchill. Churchill was made Prime Minister for a very specific reason, he had been for 7 years warning the UK about Hitler, and everything he said ended up coming true. I suggest reading a biography on Churchill called " The Last Lion ", can't remember who wrote it off the top of my head, but you'd get a better spin off of it.

 

If your argument is some mystery person is going to clean up the mess though, then I guess everyone can be whatever they like without consequence. It's kind of like burning your house down because Jesus is coming back tomorrow. It's about 50/50 on wishful thinking and dangerously deranged.

 

I warned you not to go down the History road with me, you got off light.

 

Also is Gaby a stab of some sort? I can't figure out why you used it, there was no need for the word to be put in, there was no need to make it diminutive when you put it in, so I don't get it. Why not Gabryal or nothing at all? Are you giving me nicknames now?

 

 

 

Fine. Respect.

 

You say after you do exactly what I asked people not to do, somehow it doesn't seem as sincere as perhaps it was meant too.

 

 

 

Correct.

 

 

I will keep my guns, my money and my freedom...

 

You keep the CHANGE.

 

So... we've reduced our level of discourse to bumper stickers you can buy out of a catalog at the back of World Net Daily? What the hell does this have to do with anything? Am I supposed to shout something left wing in response? What does an anti-Obama bumper sticker have to do with Skyrim? Also who said I was pro-anything political in the real world? This thread is about Skyrim's Stormcloaks and Imperials, not the RNC and DNC.

 

That's the strangest thing I've seen you say so far, and you've said a lot of strange stuff.

 

Whew, that was a lot, let's not do that again OK, all the quotes are a pain in the ass.

[StormHammer81]

@Gabryal

Whew, that was a lot, let's not do that again OK, all the quotes are a pain in the ass.

LMAO. Touche my friend, touche.

Well, first of all you have not hurt my feelings, honestly, I really don't take your insults seriously or... your post for that matter. :smile:

I will address this however:

 

So... we've reduced our level of discourse to bumper stickers you can
buy out of a catalog at the back of World Net Daily? What the hell does
this have to do with anything? Am I supposed to shout something left
wing in response? What does an anti-Obama bumper sticker have to do with
Skyrim? Also who said I was pro-anything political in the real world?
This thread is about Skyrim's Stormcloaks and Imperials, not the RNC and
DNC.

 

Scope of previous arguments between us has included modern US politics / political parties. Again, *sigh* "Do as I say not as I do right?" And then there's this little gem:

 

If your argument is some mystery person is going to clean up the mess
though, then I guess everyone can be whatever they like without
consequence. It's kind of like burning your house down because Jesus is
coming back tomorrow. It's about 50/50 on wishful thinking and
dangerously deranged.

You presume too much. What I meant was (not what I meant to say but the underlying meaning) it's *possible*. By your own *historic* example, that was what I meant. At no time did I say, "Oh well this is definitely going to happen." And it is possible a new Emperor could show up to fix this mess.

The difference between us (or one of them at least) is I acknowledge what is possible or what is probable, probability is still relative and there are an infinite number of alternate universes, so yes. It is possible. Will it happen? That is uncertain.

I have hope that this will become part of the Lore, with the Empire receiving a new Emperor, preferably the Dragonborn.

I would also like to take this time to point out, for someone to have faith or hope or to believe that something can be done DOES NOT make them deranged. God I'm glad I didn't throw in with you guys. You really, honestly... :smile: kinda sound like the Catholic Church during the Dark Ages there. You really sound bitter towards anyone who *thinks outside the box*. Annnd let me tell you, there have been numerous inventions and well, science in general that were all discredited and pioneers were laughed at by authorities and closed-minded individuals, refusing to accept change. Remember what the Catholics did to Copernicus? They refused to accept his ideas, and he got off light with just public ridicule and house arrest.

This leads me to believe that I may be on to something here. Time will tell.

 

But seriously from the tone of your above post, it sounds like your ready to start burning books, books meaning my posts. You can't kill an idea that easily my friend. The very fact that you seem bent on personal attacks and harsh criticism, DOES NOT prove me wrong. You still can't do it. You can criticize me and call me *crazy* but ultimately, YOU might be in the wrong here.

And btw, I was not at all impressed by Heston's little performance on stage. That was bizarre and quite frankly uncalled for. I'm not a Republican, you had asked earlier. I'm an independent although I agree with some Conservative or "Republican" ideals.

I don't necessarily think the right or the left has it all figured out.

Regardless of your post above I stand by everything I've said, whether you think it strange or otherwise is up to you and I respect that. Although I don't agree with your opinions. It doesn't mean you don't have a point, as we both do.

Just because you laugh at what I said, doesn't make it any less true.

Ultimately, it will be up to the individual to consider both cases and decide on their own which side to follow.


LONG LIVE THE EMPIRE!!!


Btw - Regarding replacing the Emperor, you had better be right about that because it is hinted in game that this may be part of a future DLC.

Edited March 3, 2013 by StormHammer81

[Gabryal]

Where did we go into US politics? I missed that.

 

Otherwise I accept the rest of it as your opinion, though personally I see your unwavering acceptance of a central authority as more of a nod to the Catholic ( strangely they have never changed the name, they either haven't noticed or do not accept that there are other legitimate Christian denominations, though personally, I'm an atheist ) Church

 

I'd also not like to base the future of an institution as thoroughly corrupt as the Empire on a " possibly ". It's the same sort of blind faith to my eyes " Don't worry Skyrim, the Empire will fix itself up "

 

I've been hearing rumors about the Dragonborn DLC and " The Dragonborn becoming Emperor " before the DLC had a name, all I'll say on it is it would be the easiest way to tidy up the story, especially since it doesn't matter who wins in Skyrim if the Dragonborn becomes Emperor, which is why I think it is unlikely. If they make the Dragonborn Emperor then the entire civil war in Skyrim was pointless from the word go, because no matter what Skyrim will come back into the Empire, either by military conquest or by personal Renown of the Dragonborn. If they -do- go that direction though, this entire thread has been a colossal waste of everyone's time, and frankly the " war " part of the game would be a colossal waste as well. Why even bother?

 

Wouldn't it be interesting if the Dragonborn DLC is about the Dragonborn going all around the Empire helping other nations throw off the yokes of the Empire? That would make me chuckle. It probably won't be that either, as it too would make the outcome of the war moot.

 

Anyway I'm done with this, I still don't understand about 99% of what you've said, so frankly I'm afraid to even address most of it anymore, plus it really is exhausting. Other people I'm sure will pick up the slack if you keep at it, but I stand by everything I've said as well, and always have, and always will.

 

I will say you obviously didn't understand the two things you quoted above, at least I hope you didn't, because if you did and responded the way you did then I'm not even sure that you made a human response

[kradus]

This is quoted from TES III: Morrowind, from the avatar of Talos, Wulf

 

"The Emperor is getting old. Don't know how much longer he'll hang on. So is the whole Empire, for that matter. Getting old, that is. The Emperor and the legions have held the Empire together for hundreds of years. It's been a good thing, by and large. But maybe it's time for a change. Time for something young and new. What? No idea. Because I'm old. Old dog doesn't get new ideas. But maybe young folks like you should try some new ideas. I don't know. Could be messy. But change is never pretty." - Wulf, Tiber Septim, Talos, Hjalti Early Beard, Stormcrown, Ysmir

 

This is before all the problems the Empire is facing currently, so the argument of "Well, Talos would side with the Empire because he founded it." is thrown right out the window.

 

Change has occured in fact. It's up to the player to determine if the empire changes for the better or the worse.

Breaking the empire appart fixes nothing. Cyrodill is screwed, and the surviving nations will hardly be able to gather themselfs and face the full power of the Dominion. The fact the empire is in a bad spot and about to be invaded is the reason it must stay intact. Unless you like to see the world burn.

[StormHammer81]

Until next time.

Edited March 3, 2013 by StormHammer81

[HighkingUlfricStormcloak]

In order for a better Empire to be founded you must dispose of the latter.

 

I did not make this up. Talos did. (Or whoever wrote his dialogue)

 

Talos, the founder of the Empire of Tamriel, said it must change.

 

I do not wish to see the world burn. In fact I would like to see it submerged in water, frozen into another ice age, burned (oops), broken apart, but thats because that would mean the coming of Ragarok, but thats just my belief (Editorial comment)

 

So my question is, when has it been up to the player if the Empire changes? You dont become Emperor, you dont control every man and woman within the Empire, you are not Akatosh, you arent able to single handedly topple the AD. So how then is your character able to decide?

 

I have stated several times why the Empire needs to be destoyed. IT FAILED THE TEST OF NATIONS. (Im not angry, just want to emphasize that point)

 

The Empire will die, thats undeniable, inevitable. The Nords dont deserve to suffer the fate of this cursed Tyranny and thats why I fight to free Skyrim.

 

I have completed the Empire's side of the civil war quest, in fact its the first side I chose, and Tullius secretly suggests that there - may - be a war coming. Ulfric is planning on invading in a year or so.

 

The Nords will take the fight to the AD, the Empire has it coming to them.

Edited March 3, 2013 by HighkingUlfricStormcloak

[HighkingUlfricStormcloak]

If you want the Empire to be intact as you say, then you need to go back in time and destroy the AD before the Great War, or save Martin Septim, or rewrite the Elder Scrolls.

[HighkingUlfricStormcloak]

@ Stormhammer81

 

I remember a time when I truly thought you were an understandable, compassionate, and level headed man, but like Gabryal I agree that you are not so worthy of our respect.

 

I once called you a friend and now, now I'm not sure if your truly a man. (Thats a personal attack)

Edited March 3, 2013 by HighkingUlfricStormcloak

[HighkingUlfricStormcloak]

I havent seen any Imperial here, give me reason enough to doubt the Stormcloaks, they just state facts Im already aware of. Were arent agreeing because we hold different values close to heart and mine are shown in the silver and gold lighting of the Stormcloak banner.

[StormHammer81]

@HighKing?

I remember a time when I truly thought you were an understandable,
compassionate, and level headed man, but like Gabryal I agree that you
are not so worthy of our respect.

I once called you a friend and now, now I'm not sure if your truly a man. (Thats a personal attack)

Awww. Didn't you guys... want a war with all the horror and glory that comes with it? Look, all I did was announce that I have decided to throw down with the Imperials. Ok? When you and your "big brother" over there post sh*t and constant personal attacks, then yes.

I'm going to be the bad guy.

See though, this ain't my first BBQ. You guys are deliberately trying to paint me as some kind of un-human villain. Strange, I have never been this way towards you?

@Everyone

Please, please, please read my posts. All I'm really trying to do and let's be honest, is offer hope for the Empire. We're at the stage now where no really knows for certain what is going to happen.

I have explained NUMEROUS times with reason, why I oppose the Stormcloaks.

And instead of actually a debate, Stormcloak117 and Gabryal have tried a Brute-Force approach to try and I guess remove any opposition to their point of view.

The point is not that I am right, necessarily, the point is that neither Ulfric or the Stormcloaks are the final answer and just because you fight for "freedom" DOES NOT justify the crimes of Ulfric Stormcloak.

What's so terrible about this?

LMAO. Whew! For people claiming to be fighting for freedom, you shore as hell don't want to listen to another person's point of view. "Do as I say, not as I do." la la la ... la la la...

 

 

I havent seen any Imperial here, give me reason enough to doubt the
Stormcloaks, they just state facts Im already aware of. Were arent
agreeing because we hold different values close to heart and mine are
shown in the silver and gold lighting of the Stormcloak banner.

 

 

Markarth Incident. The Thalmor Dossier on Ulfric Stormcloak. Let's see ahhh, "Rapist and Racist" folks running the show in Windhelm, gonna go to Red Mt and throw wolves, Argonians and Dark Elves in thar, let 'em eat each other, what else.......... The "Fast Food" murder of Torygg, Leaving a good man behind to be executed as an accomplice to murder while you haul a$$ back to Siberia, hmm what else...................., Annexing a neutral city, Whiterun just because your boss don't like to share power and.... let me see 'err....... Breaking with the way of the voice and the oaths he took as Greybeard, cooperating with the Thalmor (Unwillingly) for his own personal gain so that they won't tell all his Nord friends how he was broken.... should I continue?

Edited March 3, 2013 by StormHammer81