The Great Imperial vs. Stormcloak Debate

[Zykerion]

 

No they didn't. If they had, they would not have been in a position to force the ouster of talos.

 

 

Technically speaking, they weren't really in a position to. However, after years of war, the Emperor just wanted the conflict over. The Legion had lost a good portion of its fighting force taking back the Imperial City. The Dominion was not in a position to retake the territory they had lost quickly. The Empire 'won' because they had pushed the Dominion back for a time.

 

Thus, the White-Gold Concordat, and the current civil war in Skyrim because Ulfric and many nationalist Nord sentiments believe the Empire is too weak to govern, and often give the impression that they simply serve the Thalmor agenda. The Stormcloak rebellion does more for the Thalmor than the Empire would have ever done. And again, I posit that if the Empire were mere puppets of the Dominion, the Dominion could just have them cede all their lands to them. Why bother letting the Empire continue to exist?

[Zrehael]

Technically speaking, they weren't really in a position to. However, after years of war, the Emperor just wanted the conflict over. The Legion had lost a good portion of its fighting force taking back the Imperial City. The Dominion was not in a position to retake the territory they had lost quickly. The Empire 'won' because they had pushed the Dominion back for a time.

 

Thus, the White-Gold Concordat, and the current civil war in Skyrim because Ulfric and many nationalist Nord sentiments believe the Empire is too weak to govern, and often give the impression that they simply serve the Thalmor agenda. The Stormcloak rebellion does more for the Thalmor than the Empire would have ever done. And again, I posit that if the Empire were mere puppets of the Dominion, the Dominion could just have them cede all their lands to them. Why bother letting the Empire continue to exist?

 

Actually, they were in the BEST position to. In all truth, short of allowing the leader of the Aldmeri Dominion being able to kick Emperor Titus Mede II in the groin on the quarter hour, the terms of the treaty could have been much worse, or they could have just decided to go against the treaty and take the Imperial City again. They probably didn't go with that course of action as the amount of civil unrest of the people of the former Empire (I say "former" in this case assuming hypothetically the Aldmeri Dominion decided to continue with the Great War and lay siege to the Imperial City a second time) would be greater than it was now, and, if anything, would have been a call-to-arms of all non-mer races to take up arms against the Aldmeri. Ondolemar actually put it best: "The Empire exists because we allow it to exist." Lest we forget the Aldmeri Dominion stomped the Empire, and after retaking the Imperial City, they just didn't have the power to deal with another Aldmeri assault. The peace treaty was signed so that the Empire could continue to exist without having to worry about that next Aldmeri assault.

 

As for Ulfric? He's still just a whiny little bastard who wants to be High King and couldn't give a damn about anyone else even if he actually wanted to. Hell, he's the reason the Thalmor are dragging people out of their beds at night in Skyrim anyways. If he wouldn't have gone around agitating about it, the Emperor wouldn't have needed to crack down on them, and the Thalmor wouldn't even be in Skyrim.

 

It's amazing what you can learn just by spending the day smithing Iron Daggers with a blacksmith, huh? :tongue:

Edited January 21, 2012 by Zrehael

[abizon]

I joined the imperials, mostly a game like this I get really into and add a bit of role playing into it (major nerd) but anyway. I figured If the dragonborn was to join the stormcloaks and "free skyrim" thus making it it's own nation it would be kind of like The United States after they broke away from Britain. After they freed themselves from British rule they were in debt and not ready to stand against anyone if for debate sake France decided to invade this new nation would have fell quickly. With that even with the dragonborn on the side of this newly make skyrim the thalmor could just walk right into skyrim being the stormcloak army is weaken by the over civil war that just happen would lose. Being the dragonborn is a very powerful weapon she could still fall to the thalmor army being the rest of the stormcloak army is weaken.

 

 

By joining the Imperials I figured if all of skyrim is back with the empire it stands a better chance at defeating the thalmor then just two nations weaken by a war. Also the dragonborn on the side of the empire would prove to be a powerful weapon and aid the empire more if both the army of skyrim and the empire would be more then enough to defeat the thalmor and overturn the ban of worship of talos.

[faltisar]

My character is joining with the stormcloaks, simply because the imperial legion seems like a more worthy opponent - and they tried to chop my head off.

 

The only strong feelings my character has against any faction is the altmeri dominion, I plow down thalmor when ever there is a chance - sometimes I strip them, resurrect them as death thralls, have them walk through a blizzard to some cliff and then send them flying a gentle "fus"..

 

I really hate the idea of supporting the altmeri dominion, by crushing the empire, but hey, you cannot have it all.

[benjaminking0]

Legion, because of this guy: http://benjabent.blogspot.com/2012/01/why-legion-is-way-better.html

[Ahisgewaya]

THIS POST CONTAINS SPOILERS.

 

 

 

 

Even though I voted Stormcloak, that comes with some serious reservations. I wish I could ask Ulfric a lot of question about the Thalmor Dossier. I also wish I could demand he make ammends to the Dunmer and Argonians of Windhelm. I wish I could ask him what he intends to do after the civil war.

 

You can't do that, which is very unfortunate in my opinion. I would ask someone to mod it in, but it will then be what someone thinks he would say or will do. The only thing that would satisfy me is if Bethesda could say publicly if Ulfric is intended to be evil or not.

 

There are some very disturbing parallels which have been pointed out on the internet between Ulfric and a certain Evil Dictator. (I don't think he really is that way, but then it is enough to give me pause)

 

Could someone help me decide with this? I know that's a ridiculous thing to ask, but they didn't give me enough information (I'm worried I might be choosing between Hitler and Stalin)

 

Where's a Yes Man when you need him?!

 

If I choose Stormcloaks and then Bethesda comes out later and says "Ha-ha! You helped the nazies!" I will litterally be sick to my stomach and really don't want that. On the other hand I've played through a lot of the game and would like to see what the civil war thing is like. In real life I would never chose a side when given so little information (and the empire ain't exactly flowing with transparency either, and I've heard that they remove Talos worship and let the Thalmor wander around freely if you win the war for them).

 

And both sides better not doom Skyrim. That would piss me off as I had quite enough of that with Morrowind (where whatever you do doesn't matter because Bethesda has a book they want to sell).

 

Ugh! So frustrating!

 

I hate having a moral quandary in my entertainment!

Edited January 31, 2012 by Ahisgewaya

[Zykerion]

This Post May Contain Spoilers. Avert Ye Eyes if Ye Wish Not to See Them.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Having played through the Stormcloak side of things, I may be able to provide you some information regarding their side. The further along I went during that quest chain, the more I felt like a complete a-hole. I don't like who Ulfric replaces the current Jarls with, many of the replacements being mere puppets anyway who look like they wouldn't know how to manage a small argument, much less a hold. The one that really hammers this home is (if you've done the story without resolving the Civil War) when you take Whiterun. Balgruuf gives you a few words and a few looks that pierce your very soul and make you feel like an utter heel. The new Jarl of Whiterun, Vignar Grey-Mane, sounds like another version of Ulfric, only greedier.

 

The end of the Civil War if you side with the Stormcloaks actually has an option that I think should be interpreted as an attempt to atone for the sins you've committed against Skyrim. Ulfric asks if you would like to be included in his great speech about the defeat of the Empire and how Skyrim now belongs to the Stormcloaks. You can respond in a myriad of ways, but I think the most telling is the option 'I think it would be best if I were left out of this.' or something to that effect. Now, granted, you can take that as a great act of humility, and not grabbing for power, but to me it sounds more like someone with a guilty conscience, someone who is trying to downplay their role in Ulfric's rule because it just feels downright wrong.

 

A lot of the people who accuse the Empire of being the Thalmor's puppet really need to look at Ulfric's Jarls. It's very telling when he says he's defending the traditions of Skyrim, but has no problem rigging the Moot with puppet Jarls who are in his pocket, not to mention the fact that he says 'Damn the Moot' at one point. Elisif is essentially a hostage of war at its end, left in power as a 'show of generosity' but really Ulfric could have her killed whenever he wants with whatever flimsy reason he needs, as the Jarls would support his actions. He is using a bad political situation for his own ends, which, let's be honest, sounds very much like the Evil Dictator many allude to when they start comparing Ulfric to someone else.

 

Can't say much about the Empire's side of the Civil War, but I'm trying to stay out of it until I've done everything else in the game I can.

[Ozone9136]

The Stormcloaks seemed like the right choice to me. The reasoning being:

 

1. The Imperials were trying to kill me for no reason in the beginning.

 

2. All of the Imperials I see just seem like bad people who want to force terrible laws down people's throat.

 

3. Being a religious person, I see the religious guy in Whiterun shouting out against the Imperials saying that they do nothing to stop the ban on Talos worship, and that leads me to believe that the Imperials are just generally bad people.

 

4. It kinda reminds me of how America fought against Great Britain for freedom.

 

Yes, I understand the Stormcloaks have some bad things about them too, but the Imperials just seem straight up terrible to me.

[Gentlebeard]

You know what? I'm sided with the Thalmor. I know they're all evil and s***, but look at their perspective. They have all the power, control, they have invaded fawkin everywhere, and skilled in magic. Also they talk like gentlemen. If I had a choice, I would ultimately join their side. And i've been an elf since TES:III

[Titaniumhelix]

Hmm, if you look at a map of Tamriel, you begin to notice a few things;

1. There are only two main routes from Cyrodil into Skyrim, the Orange Road and the Silver Road.

2. There is also Pale Pass.

 

For the Aldmer, holding any of these roads for any period of time they would have to be able to withstand a multiple front assault. This would have to be done in unfamiliar territory with a very tenuous supply route. Any supply train would have to skirt the Hammerfell and Cyrodil border or come from the East (Morrowind).

 

4. Keeping Skyrim as an independent, no longer under Cyrodil's rule is somewhat advantageous.

5. A Completely weakened Skyrim would not be able to mount an offensive from the North to secure the roads mentioned above. Years of protracted civil war or devastating loss from one, would be the most desired outcome for Skyrim.

6. An independent or weak Skyrim means both a geographic and cultural advantage.

 

I think the Aldmeri are desperate to collapse Skyrim, as it is the lifeblood of the Empire. The White Concordat Treaty clause on the worship of Talos, had to have been the first salvo in a long protracted conflict with Cyrodil. With Skyrim in near total revolt and the active subjugation of Talos there, I think it is a desperate gamble to further encircle Cyrodil, thus draining it of its ability to fight. Any attack launched from the West Colovian or Topal bay would be a very difficult prospect with the backbone of Skyrim still in place to supply ore, timber and strong manpower in a constant stream to the Empire. Also the fall of the land of Talos or total succession would be a great political victory for the Aldmer.

 

7. Sea borne invasion?

 

A sea borne invasion of Skyrim would galvanize the region, not winnable as the northern sea is treacherous and the Nords are very capable sea men!

 

So in conclusion, I have to say that even having Ulfric win is a great victory for the Aldmeri Dominion. All they have to do is broker a deal, stating that Skyrim can do as it pleases, in full autonomy, including Talos worship as long as they remain neutral. Once Cyrodil is subjugated, Aldmer can take the long view and increase it's resources and man power for a MAJOR offensive against the fractured High Rock provinces, leaving Hammerfell and Skyrim isolated. But giving advantageous treaties and lots of gold to the greedy Jarls will keep them in check!

 

Though I sympathize with the Stormcloaks, even I can see how the only solution is a unified Cyrodil and Skyrim.

 

And let us not forget, even though the Jarl of Whiterun serves the Empire, he completely tolerates a fanatical speaker for Talos within ear shot of the castle!

 

Think on that!