The Great Imperial vs. Stormcloak Debate

[Titaniumhelix]

And lastly, the Dragon born is in control of the blades, which can be increased in strength due to the political power and prestige the Dovahkiin holds. A silent war in Skyrim to cleanse the land of the Thalmor, to limit Aldmer intelligence while recruiting legions in secret for a new offensive against the Dominion could be very useful, and I see the Jarl of Whiterun possibly playing Imperial kingmaker for a certain Dovahkiin!

[GaussMonger]

I went with the imperials since Ulfric is racist against non-nords(the Dunmer and Argonian districts in Windhelm), I just don't like JarlSkald and his paranoid rantings, and I like Balgruuf too much to replace him.

 

Plus, The Empire is probably the only power strong enough to oppose the Aldemeri Dominion in the inescapable new war(which will be a DLC, I wager).

[StormHammer81]

!!! WARNING SPOILERS AHEAD !!!

 

After reading several books, including the account of the Forsworn Rebellion and Rising threat volumes, speaking to both sides leadership, speaking to the Jarl of Markarth, to the Jarl in Whiterun, season unending, a review of the Thalmor embassy dossier(s) and the general attitude / ethics of the Imperials and Stormcloaks both in town & encounters and factoring in the Dark Brotherhood quest & consequences, I have chosen to side with the Empire.

 

This was not an easy decision to make. But at least, to my understanding, it is nothing short of FACT the Empire is the best choice for Skyrim and it's people.

 

So, if you take the Stormcloaks out of the equation, looking at this problem from the beginning, the Emperor Titus Mede II, was the one who resisted the treaty, fought hard to save the Empire, winning one of the greatest battles in imperial history, but then did a 360 and signed over the Empire's soul to the Devils (Thalmor). That was his first mistake. His second was "renouncing" Hammerfall. Fate gave him another chance to man-up but he kept trying to hide. Logic would also suggest, Skyrim now has every right to purposefully succeed from the Empire because the Emporer has already renounced Hammerfall. Eventually however, there is a quest where you get to have a conversation with the Emperor about all the bad decision making he's been doing.

 

Now, the Empire is certainly not what it once was. I count no less than (6 out of 9) entire provinces lost. Again, going back to the beginning, how were these provinces lost? And as Rising Threat I & II explain, the Thalmor (Rulers of Summerset) were behind EVERYTHING. Even perhaps Red Mountain. The world of Tamriel today, is of their making. How did the Thalmor do it? Why, by using a wedge of course with their agents working behind the scenes. Every province the Empire lost, has been due to Thalmor influence either direct or indirect. Even the Ali'Kr in Hammerfell are working for the Thalmor now, apparently.

 

Skyrim. Skyrim is the last major imperial province left. And it is major because it connects Highrock to Cyrodil and Cyrodil is probably still a mess. Losing Skyrim effectively kills the Empire and then you have the Kingdom of Highrock and the Kingdom of Cyrodil. As I have seen in real life, it much easier to fight one or two opponents at a time, compared to one great, united force. Ultimately, the Thalmor are behind the Civil War in Skyrim. They are using the same wedge they've used everywhere else. If Skyrim succeeds from the Empire, then you are GIVING them exactly what they want. Doesn't mean it's for better or worse but a Stormcloak Victory will give them the results they're looking for. It will be the end of the Empire and Skyrim will be weakened. Skyrim imports much of their food and essentials from Cyrodil. And just look at how Ulfric and the other Stormcloak Jarls treat their people and run their cities. The whole if they're not with us, then they're against us attitude. And God help you if you're an elf.

 

Ulfric. Ulfric was at least for a time, a Thalmor collaborator. Read the Thalmor Embassy Dossier and it will hint that somewhere between the time when Ulfric was let go and the ending of the Markarth incident, Ulfric was working for the Thalmor or they were his benefactors in some regards. Now, the Thalmor betrayed Ulfric at Markarth and ever since he has been uncooperative. But he is also listed as "dormant". The dossier is only one piece of the puzzle. There must be more to it for him to be dormant. But anytime Ulfric or almost any Stormcloak is in a tough spot when questioned in conversation, they just stop and start talking about how Talos was banned, Talos this, Talos that. I mean come on... I'm all for Freedom of Religion, but it seems like they're using the ban on Talos as a scape-goat to justify a lack of logic and reason. Remember, everyone had their little shrine to Talos until Ulfric started agitating about it. And the ban on Talos only prevented open worship of Talos, but people could still worship him in their hearts.

 

The Imperials were not (Still aren't) enforcing the ban on Talos worship, it's ULFRIC who brought the Thalmor to Skyrim through his rebellion and he wouldn't stop running his mouth at the Jarl PTA meetings. And that battle with Torygg might have been "tradition legal" but it sure as hell wasn't fair. Ulfric could have just asked Torygg to declare independence, promised to help him see it through, but Ulfric ran his sword through Tyrgg's heart instead. So is this someone who is "worthy" to be High King? You know in many of the ancient battles, the combatants would intentionally fight on the same level to show their skill and honor. And it's pretty much a lie to say Torygg was weak, it's the same as me bringing a Rocket Launcher to a jousting contest.

 

Finally, it is my conclusion the situation in Skyrim, like many things in life, will fix itself. Thalmor and Empire are not getting along and through a quest, the Emperor is going to "step down", allowing for change. Especially since ALL of the imperial leadership I've spoken with HATE THE THALMOR and WORSHIP TALOS in some way. Rikke, Tullius and the Jarl in Whiterun for example. The Empire is NOT a puppet state, it's just the wrong man is leading it and the Thalmor are very pushy. With the Emperor gone, you can bet that Concordant will soon be dissolved. It is only a matter of time until things go back to normal, as the Legion has promised. Basically, the legion is for Talos, but the Emperor is holding them back. But none of these things will change if the Emperor remains in power or if the Empire get's Destroyed by the Thalmor's agents & activities.

 

This is still the Empire of Tiber Septum and I will not be the reason why.

Edited February 4, 2012 by bigmagy1981

[jesuschrist123]

reasons for choosing the imperials:

1. open worship of talos is a choice, race isn't; talos worshippers can worship in private while the empire recover from the war, elves and argonians can either change into nords, leave skyrim, or live in discrimiation under ulfric

2. ulfric didn't ask the high king to declare independence in solitude, he just went and kill him, replacing torryg with himself and gaining power was the first thing on his mind

 

reason for siding with ulfric:

the imperials tryed to cut of the charactor's head and when you meet tullius in solitude he doesn't compensate you for the trama or apologize and you weren't on the list, so if you take that personally and don't think killing the imperial captain who ordered your execution by going with ralof in the beginning was enough, you can remove the empire from skyrim since taking over and becoming emperor isn't in the game.

 

it's disappointing that there wasn't an option to takeover the place yourself like there was in new vegas.

Edited February 5, 2012 by jesuschrist123

[Darearkin]

My personal feelings ran like this. At first, I was all for a "Death to the Empire, Freedom or Sovengard" rebellion.

 

The stormcloaks do have merit; they and their kind went off to war with the Empire and then their god got banned. There was no conquered land, no real rewards- they got called up, there was a war, they got sent home, and they lost a god. That's pretty painful. Also, you have Thalmur hunting the countryside for people to abduct. (mind, why they never staked out the Shrine of Talos is beyond me.) And then there's the Imperials, apparently happy to decapitate anyone who gets in their way.

 

 

But on closer inspection, the imperials are trying to hold together a large empire in the wake of a great war. If the empire shatters- and losing Skyrim will definitely shatter it- there'll be no large power to oppose the Dominion should they try anything.

 

It's admitted that the Imperials didn't actually enforce the 'anti-talos' ban until AFTER Ulfric started raising cain- in fact, it was a response, due to Thalmur pressure. Had Ulfric not kicked over the apple cart, the people of Skyrim would've probably been allowed to worship, quietly.

 

And then there's Ulfric's "Duel" with Toryyg. Now, I'm not an expert on the lore- but last time I checked, a duel doesn't involve planning on running away, or pre-establishing escape routes, does it? From how I understand duels, you announce your challenge, the parties fight, and then it's over. And yet Ulfric shouted the king down, killed him, ran like hell, and abandoned his follower to get decapitated. Nice guy.

 

While we're on the topic of Ulfric- Skyrim for Nords sounds like a great battle-cry until you realize that means non-nords'll get treated like second class citizens, if lucky. The slums in his headquarters are already pretty pathetic; there's a good chance he'll spread that, or worse, to the rest of the country.

 

 

 

 

For me, the choice is simple; Imperials. To quote Alvor, Hadvar's Uncle; "Skyrim has always been part of the Empire. That doesn't mean I support everything the Empire's been doing lately, but Nords have never been fair-weather friends."

 

 

EDIT And one little comparison I'd like to show; On the 'escape from Helgan,' Hadvar says, upon detecting the Stormcloaks, "Maybe we can talk to them." and says, to them, "Hold on! We only want to-" Ralof says; "Maybe we can get the drop on them." And attacks on sight. When detecting Imperials. Just based on followers, it seems the Imperials will be the less bloodthirsty rulers.

Edited February 12, 2012 by Darearkin

[imperistan]

EDIT And one little comparison I'd like to show; On the 'escape from Helgan,' Hadvar says, upon detecting the Stormcloaks, "Maybe we can talk to them." and says, to them, "Hold on! We only want to-" Ralof says; "Maybe we can get the drop on them." And attacks on sight. When detecting Imperials. Just based on followers, it seems the Imperials will be the less bloodthirsty rulers.

 

You can't be serious. The Stormcloak troops there were just about to be put to the block by the Imperials. Why in the name of Shor would they sit and "talk it out"?

 

 

And I'm going to go ahead and repost what I posted over in the Skyrim Spoiler's version of this topic:

 

Talos has to be worshiped. Otherwise, he'll go poof. The gods divinity, and especially the divinity of Talos rely on mythopoesis. IE, they need people to believe in them to really give them power. The Thalmor push for the worship of Talos being banned because they don't see him as a god, and whats worse, they see him as an insult because it shows that a mere human could reach divinity while all Altmer are still stuck as mortals. Further, they want to return to the point where they weren't mortals. Removing Talos (by way of eliminating all those who believe in him, and castrating him in those who could come to believe in him) is the first step towards that. The Thalmor ultimately want to end the world for humans (and thus reverse the creation of Mundus) because then that would (according to what they think will happen) return them to a point before Mundus was created.

 

Ulfric started his rebellion because he was denied the ability to openly worship Talos by the Empire, and not only that, but he was thrown into the hands of the Thalmor shortly afterwords. For merely doing what he was asked by his Empire and asking for what he was promised. While the Thalmor call him an "asset", its quite foolish to assume that after being tortured by the Thalmor that he's going to just get all buddy buddy with them. No most likely the Thalmor heard him cursing the Empire and vowing some sort of revenge while being tortured (or while in his cell) and as such saw fit to let him escape to start his Rebellion. They say that they go on to establish contact, but again, its foolish to assume that he'd just buddy up to them after what happened. No, most likely the Thalmor have a plant in his army that is working towards sustaining the war while also undermining it. I personally suspect his steward, but it could be anyone.

 

This however doesn't make his rebellion a bad thing.

 

======================

 

The current Empire needs to die. Its higher leadership is plagued by incompetence and corruption, its Emperor (who was a bloody short-sighted idiot, more on that in a second) is about to be assassinated, its military can't hold onto its one major holding outside of Cyrodiil (High Rock is currently too busy fussing about themselves to be much a bother to anyone), and whats worse its not even a legitimate Empire. The Throne was taken by force by the first Titus Mede, so the Empire you all think you're supporting actually died off a little under 200 years ago.

 

Its ineptitude is proven in its actions. When it first began, it failed to respond to what was occurring in the Empire. The entire south of Tamriel was lost in the time leading up to the Great War, Morrowind was torn apart, and western Tamriel went to war against Orsinium, which eventually lead to that city being destroyed yet again, breaking the treaties that existed there and ultimately going against the Empire's rule. But sure, may be you can give the Mede Empire a break here because it was "weak". That's fine.

 

Then the Great War comes along. The Dominion gives the Empire an ultimatum, and demands the south of Hammerfel and several other things that would basically cripple what was left of the Empire. Mede II has the sense to deny them this. The Dominion then proceeds to invade within a day of that ultimatum being denied, ultimately circumventing Cyrodiil's defenses, and passing straight into Hammerfel, with the intent on taking it. (Cyrodiil being invaded was just a ploy to keep the Legion divided) Cyrodiil proves to be easier to take, with success being had by Narafiin's army at an impressive rate. This leads to the point when the south of Hammerfel is taken, and the Dominion's separate army (separate, remember that) moving across the Alik'r desert to be stopped in Skaven. At this point, the Dominion calls on all available forces (which basically means any forces not currently sitting in Hammerfel or otherwise being used for law and order) to march on Cyrodiil to capture the Imperial City and in turn overthrow the Empire altogether. They capture the Imperial City and begin slaughtering the inhabitants of Cyrodiil save those who live in the northern areas, namely Bruma.

 

Eventually, the Legion manages to rally itself into coherence, and the Emperor orders the Legion in Hammerfel (along with Legions coming out of Skyrim and High Rock) to march on Cyrodiil, which ultimately would have left Hammerfel at the hands of the Dominion's invasion force there. But General Decianus has a brain and leaves troops there who go on to form the core of the army that would continue fighting there. So, the Legion marches on Cyrodiil, attacks the Dominion held Imperial City and retakes it, destroying the vast majority of the Dominion's entire army along with it.

 

Then, inexplicably, Mede II signs the White-Gold Concordat, which completely negates the fact that the Legion destroyed the Dominion's army by giving the Dominion virtually all of the main awards they wished to gain in the first place with their ultimatum. This is ultimately proven to be one of the stupidest decisions an Emperor could make, as Hammerfel (which is left to the wolves because Mede is a short-sighted dillweed) goes on to fight the Dominion's invasion force (which was built specifically to take Hammerfel, and the Thalmor would not have been so stupid to put a force together that couldn't have taken Hammerfel) to a total standstill on its own (using a diminished single Legion and whatever militia they could have raised) and kept the Dominion in this standstill for 5 years afterwords, at which point the Dominion gives up and lets Hammerfel have all of its lands back.

 

This shows us that the war could have been sustained with little problem to the Empire. For one, Hammerfel was already going to be involved in war, so there's no point stopping war for their sake. High Rock and Skyrim never saw the war and at that point would never have seen the war unless the Dominion somehow found themselves a magical mcguffin. As such, stopping war or continuing it wasn't going to put any more strain on them. Cyrodiil was the only place that would have truly had a reason to see the war stopped (and note that this is important to note for later) and even then, the remaining Legion forces that could continue to fight would have been able to defend Cyrodiil's southern borders, especially when complemented with fresh troops from the two provinces up in the north that never saw the war and were never drawn on for fresh troops. (The legions that were taken from the two were already established there, well before the war. They weren't new troops going off to their first fight) It would have been the same for resources. High Rock and Skyrim could have easily supported Cyrodiil and the resistance in Hammerfel with proper rationing.

 

The mere fact that the Dominion gave up fighting against one single province shows that they would not have been able to sustain a war against the rest of northern, western, and central Tamriel. Elsweyrs status as a pair of client states to the Dominion wouldn't have helped them, because the Khajiit proved that they weren't going to go to war for the Dominion, both in their actions during the Great War (where their only presence was in allowing Dominion troops asylum) and afterwords, where they never sent help to Hammerfel's invasion force.

 

But no, Titus Mede II signed the WGC and completely undermined the victory he just had against his enemy, and all for the seeming point of serving CYRODIIL's interests. The Empire clings to Skyrim because it knows that Cyrodiil will be left to the mercy of the Dominion (though even then, the Dominion can't successfully invade anyone at this point, and wont' be able to for at least a hundred years. Best case scenario they knock over the Empire, but thats not saying much when it would just leave them with a weak grip on Cyrodiil), not because Tamriel will fall. Not because the Dominion is some mystical force thats just ready to destroy the Empire but is only holding back because of some stupid treaty. Not because Cyrodiil actually cares about Skyrim.

 

The Mede Empire is weak, has always been weak, and has shown that its even willing to sell out the most important god to Mankind all for the sake of sparing poor old Cyrodiil the threat of war. It needs to die, so that something new can take its place. Something that can, and will stand up the Dominion and won't just fall apart soon afterwords anyway. The Mede Empire will never be able to regain the allegiance of Hammerfel, as Hammerfel would not ally themselves with the very force that sold them out to the Dominion, unless by force, which would result in war even more detrimental than the current Civil War in Skyrim. And the allegiance of Hammerfel is going to be crucial for whomever decides to go up against the Dominion. Its sea access and key experience with the Dominion is invaluable, and the Empire will never be able to touch it.

 

It needs to die, and a unified Skyrim coming to call upon the rest of mankind (and much of Mer-kind for that matter)on Tamriel is going to be the best hope against the Dominion when the time comes.

================================

 

Those saying that the enforcement of the Talos ban only being started after the Civil War are, well stupid, because they're missing the point entirely of whats occurring. Sitting there and worshiping in the darkness (in some petty attempt to stay alive long enough to see an end you can't escape) is just as bad as outright accepting someone telling you can't worship X god anymore. The Thalmor want to obliterate Talos and by extension the rest of mankind and the entirety of Mundus along with it. Worshiping in secret will do NOTHING. It will only postpone the inevitable. The Thalmor might not have been so active in Skyrim before the Civil War, but you damn well know they were going to be at some point regardless. They want to obliterate Talos. Left unchecked, they WILL start purging Talos worshipers in Skyrim, Civil War or not.

 

I can tell you as a real-life follower of a polytheistic religion that an invasion force coming in and telling me I can't worship one of my gods would easily make me want to rise in rebellion. The fact that there are many gods does not make it any less terrible when you're told you can't worship one of them. And if that god is the most popular one in the bunch? Oh, its bad.

 

==============================

 

As touched on above, while the rebellion is indeed beneficial to the Dominion, that does not automatically make the rebellion a bad thing. As stated above, the Empire needs to die. And as the dossier on Ulfric shows, their rebellion succeeding would be just as detrimental to them as it would be if the rebellion was put down in a timely fashion by the Legion. The Thalmor need to be dealt with yes, but they aren't some magical power that's just waiting to waltz over and destroy all of Tamriel. They actually can't.

 

Their army is diminished still from the Great War. Valenwood can't be called on for support because not only does only a small portion of the population there actually support the Thalmor government, but those that don't support it are being purged still, 200 years after Valenwood was seized by the Dominion (They never joined willingly). Valenwood is on the verge of civil war itself, and even that civil war never erupts, the few among the Bosmer that will go to war for the Dominion are not going to give the Dominion the forces it needs to take on the rest of Tamriel. Elsweyr can't be called on, they won't go to war for the Dominion as they've shown on two occasions already. (and they can't be forced to either. Learn what a client state is)

 

The Dominion would need at least 100 years more to prepare before it could hope to take on the rest of Tamriel, but even then, they'd have a hard time because by then, no matter who wins the Civil War, the Dominion is going to have an army on its doorstep. And as I showed above, a Skyrim-lead army is going to be the best option, as it will then lead to a better future for Tamriel, and not one lead by the same inept government that allowed us to come to be in this mess in the first place.

[StormHammer81]

Well, then Talos isn't much of a God then. When someone or something is a "God" it's a matter of definition. Even if their names are forgotten, they're still a God. Either you are a God or you're not. The opinion(s) of man, being what they are, : ) are certainly not divine and have no bearing on divine beings existence. Talos became a God because HE EARNED IT. Not because some mortal said he should be. Still freedom of Religion is important, but I have known MANY religious or conservative people who are openly very Godly but behind the scenes they're like snakes. It shouldn't matter to True Believers in Talos whether they worship him openly or lay down there rights to worship him publicly temporarily in order to save the lives of their neighbors, literally thousands of lives. Especially when there was no persecution of believes until Ulfric started agitating about it. Which do you think Talos would prefer?

 

The point being overlooked in all of this - The United Empire DESTROYED the entire primary Thalmor invasion force in one fell swoop. ANNIHILATED. And while we're speculating on the future, the Thalmor haven't forgotten this. If the Empire did it once, they can do it again. But it took ALL of the four remaining provinces banding together in order to accomplish this great feat. I still give respect to Hammerfell, but Hammerfell basically did the moping up after the Great Imperial Victory over the Thalmor army in Cyrodil. The Empire is NOT dead. Go around Skyrim and look at all of the Imperial cities. See the people, how they live, how well the cities are run. Now look at the Stormcloaks. I swear, the difference is like night and day. A dieing and corrupt Empire would probably look like Windhelm. Ulfric's Xenophobic ideaology will prevent his Skyrim from doing anything about the Thalmor or lifting a finger to provide any form of support to anyone else who isn't a "True son or daughter of Skyrim". And I would also like to point out, the Nords were not the first race to live in Skyrim. They killed and drove out the native Snow Elves and Forsworn (Then just Bretons) who were there first.

 

Emperor Titus Mede II will eventually be assassinated. This rights perhaps some wrongs, but one thing this definitely brings is change. Things will change and furthermore, the Dragonborn IS AN HEIR TO THE IMPERIAL THRONE. If Talos, who was also a Dragonborn, created the Empire, then this new Dragonborn can claim the Throne of the Empire and restore it. This entire sad situation began because there was no known, legitimate heir to the Imperial throne. Even if the Stormcloaks cause is just, Ulfric is not High-King material and he blocks the moot from choosing a High-King. Ulfric's conduct during the "challenge" with Torygg casts a huge shadow of doubt on the Stormcloak's movement like Darearkin (above) said. Imperial leadership is not incompetent. Jarl Elisif, though inexperienced, has her heart in the right place, caring more for her people than for pursuing personal ambitions to be High Queen. Or for killing the other side's leadership to make a point. Same for Legate Rikke and Tullius, they hate the Concordate and the Thalmor but can't do anything about it because of the current Emperor - And they ALL worship Talos too. And if talking to them isn't enough to convince you, go see Legate Fascendil at the Falkreath? Imperial camp.

 

Once the Emperor is no more, the ball is in the Legion's court.

Edited February 18, 2012 by bigmagy1981

[imperistan]

Well, then Talos isn't much of a God then. When someone or something is a "God" it's a matter of definition. Even if their names are forgotten, they're still a God. Either you are a God or you're not. The opinion(s) of man, being what they are, : ) are certainly not divine and have no bearing on divine beings existence. Talos became a God because HE EARNED IT. Not because some mortal said he should be.

 

Except you're wrong. Divinity doesn't work like that in the ES universe.

 

It shouldn't matter to True Believers in Talos whether they worship him openly or lay down there rights to worship him publicly temporarily in order to save the lives of their neighbors, literally thousands of lives.

 

Until you realize that it was laying down their rights to believe in him openly was precisely what condemned many of them to die for believing in him openly. And again, you miss the fact that the Thalmor are going to purge every Talos worshipper eventually regardless. So sitting there and letting the Thalmor have their way now is akin to saying "why not come and kill me now and be done with it".

 

The point being overlooked in all of this - The United Empire DESTROYED the entire primary Thalmor invasion force in one fell swoop.

 

And? That doesn't change what the Empire went on to do. That doesn't make the Empire the only force that can stand up to the Dominion.

 

Just because the Empire may fall does not mean that its going to end up being one province against the Dominion. The Empire is not the only thing that can unite Tamriel.

 

I still give respect to Hammerfell, but Hammerfell basically did the moping up after the Great Imperial Victory over the Thalmor army in Cyrodil.

 

Still doesn't change what the Empire did, purely in the interests of sparing poor old Cyrodiil.

 

The Empire is NOT dead. Go around Skyrim and look at all of the Imperial cities. See the people, how they live, how well the cities are run. Now look at the Stormcloaks.

 

This is hilarious, because the only Imperial city that actually shows a significant difference compared to those on the Stormcloak side of things is Solitude, and that's because its Skyrim's main port, so its naturally going to be more affluent than the rest of the province.

 

Ulfric's Xenophobic ideaology will prevent his Skyrim from doing anything about the Thalmor or lifting a finger to provide any form of support to anyone else who isn't a "True son or daughter of Skyrim"

 

He's not xenophobic, and even presuming he was, he would be no different than any Nord (or Dunmer. Or Altmer) whose ever existed.

 

And I would also like to point out, the Nords were not the first race to live in Skyrim. They killed and drove out the native Snow Elves and Forsworn (Then just Bretons) who were there first.

 

I would like to point out that the first Nords to live in Skyrim were annihilated by their Elven friends, save for Ysgramor and his two sons. 3 People out of the thousands if not hundreds of thousands survived when the rest were killed by the native Elves when there was no provocation.

 

The elves started the bad blood between the Nords and Mer-kind. The Nords originally came in piece, and they were massacred by the very people they were coexisting with.

 

And as for the Forsworn? Sorry, but I don't take terrorists seriously.

 

If Talos, who was also a Dragonborn, created the Empire, then this new Dragonborn can claim the Throne of the Empire and restore it.

 

If that actually does occur then yes it would be the better option. However, given Beth's intent on obscuring the role of the player character beyond their role in their games main quest, we can't presume that that will happen.

 

Even if the Stormcloaks cause is just, Ulfric is not High-King material and he blocks the moot from choosing a High-King.

 

The vast majority of Nord's are fighting for the good of their homes, not for the good of Ulfric. If the Moot chooses to put someone else on Skyrim's throne, and Ulfric tries to take it by force, he will not have very many supporters. The Nords will fight for the good of their homes. They won't fight to put a hypocrite (for if this were to happen, then thats what Ulfric would be revealed as) on the throne and shed more unnecessary blood.

 

Ulfric's conduct during the "challenge" with Torygg casts a huge shadow of doubt on the Stormcloak's movement like Darearkin (above) said.

 

More of this "he cheated" nonsense? Yeah, no. Sorry. But you're wrong.

 

Or for killing the other side's leadership to make a point.

 

Do try to understand how Nordic culture works before you try to make that a bad thing again.

 

Same for Legate Rikke and Tullius, they hate the Concordate and the Thalmor but can't do anything about it because of the current Emperor

 

Legate Rikke yes, but she answers to Tullius. And he's already shown he actually doesn't give a damn.

 

Once the Emperor is no more, the ball is in the Legion's court.

 

Except it won't because the Legion still answers to the entirety of the Empire's upper leadership. The Legion doesn't just go do its own thing when there isn't an Emperor. They still answer to the Elder Council.

[StormHammer81]

Divinity is Divinity. Maybe it doesn't work like that in your universe, but I'm pretty sure a God is still a God regardless. Saying that a God does not exist unless you choose for it to exist is childish and really demonstrates no understanding of what a real God is.

 

Ok, so the Thalmor are going to kill you NO MATTER WHAT YOU BELIEVE. Publicly or otherwise. Even more reason not to let them control you through your religion. Now that I think about it, that was THE POINT Titus Mede II was trying to make. We can sacrifice for A SHORT WHILE and still win. Again, Religious people are not flexible. And in this story, just like in life, sometimes we have to be flexible to survive. But he could have made the point another way. Like not signing the treaty to begin with.

 

It doens't change what TITUS MEDE II did. The Empire was under HIM. So if 99% of the Empire disagrees with the Emperor, then damn them all right? I have an idea, let's just get rid of the EMPEROR and start over with what we have.

 

If the Empire falls, the Thalmor win. Consider how EVERY Imperial province has fallen so far ~ Because of the Thalmor in some way. SKYRIM IS NO DIFFERENT. Ulfric is still DORMANT right? A Xenophobe will NOT care anything about his neighbors. How do you know Ulfric won't take his mask off right after Tullius loses his head hmmm?

 

ALL of the Imperial cities have SIGNIFICANT infrastructure, economy and everything else compared to the Stormcloaks. Exceptions Morthal and Riften. You're saying Whiterun, Markarth and Solitude are all run down like Windhelm, Dawnstar and Winterhold?

 

I presume nothing, but behold everything. Hehehe go ask Ulfric and Gnarl Stone about how they feel. Go to the Stromcloak camps, talk to the Dark Elves. Ulfric is Xenophobic. Not saying there's not maybe good reason, sure. But he is. It's hilarious to me that you would try and defend him on that. "True sons and daughter of Skyrim." It's practically writing on the wall.

 

Ulfric did Cheat or at least went outside the spirit of the challenge. Torygg didn't have to die in order to "prove" himself. All it really proves is Ulfric will do or say anything to win. Hehehe literally. It's not nonsense, it's fact. So if you and I were going to duel and I brought a Rocket-Launcher to the duel, blew you away, that's fair? I mean, really.

 

Regarding the Foresworn, I was saying they originally were not known as Forsworn. They were Bretons who inhabited Western Skyrim. Well... until the Nords and then later on Ulfric came on the scene. He took care of them. And then they became The Foresworn.

 

The Elder Council will take a back seat if the Dragonborn steps up to the Throne. Otherwise, then yes.

 

Ultimately, if they were doing things , "For the good of Skyrim", Ulfric and Tullius would put an end to this War, and work something out. I personally think Skyrim and Tamriel need them both and I do respect Ulfric. Maybe make Ulfric High King and Null Void that Evil Concordant after the Emperor dies. Then Tullius and Ulfric work together to deal with whatever comes. Let them come to a mutual understanding. Both would have to make sacrifices. That is BEST.

 

LONG LIVE THE EMPIRE!!! LONG LIVE SKYRIM!!!

Edited February 13, 2012 by bigmagy1981

[imperistan]

I can't even reply to that without insulting you at some point. So poop. :wallbash: