The Great Imperial vs. Stormcloak Debate

[thelamogio1]

personaly my only complain with skyrim is just that: why not give me a third option? Why do the thalmor have to be cartoonishy evil, standard issue, cookie cutter villains? i mean i am certain the decision all thalmor agents to have a barbell mustache, a top hat and a monocle was dropped just before the game went gold! Would it be that difficult to make a short story line were you join up with the thalmor? Instead im stuck with either being forced to kill or to avoid thalmor patrols, because when they ask if i worship talos my only option is to act like a 4 year old and not tell them or tell them i do (man i was pissed when i had that encounter) Bottom line is I WANT OPTIONS bethesda!!! Edited March 7, 2012 by thelamogio1

[Victor111]

Right. I'm going to go bring my Elven Armor down from the Attic and get her all shiny and polished up.

 

Think I'll just head to the nearest Thalmor Embassy and sign up. :dance:

 

I find it hard to believe they didn't include this in the game, maybe in a DLC.

 

But yeah, once Skyrim kicks out the Empire that's, damn... that's it folks!

 

Talk about a sh*t storm. Holy *explecit*

 

ALL HAIL THE ALDMERI DOMINION

 

 

Dear Sir,

 

Keep it calm please. I take this is a reaction to my last post regarding your commentary.

Since I'm not a native speaker I can't be 100% sure, but I can clearly hear sarcasm here.

You dissapoint me, since instead of taking this discussion deeper you go ahead and call my argumentation ` a sh*t storm. Holy *explecit*´ Clarify yourself, this makes no sense at all.

You know you are declaring joning the Stormcloakes as an act that will directly help the Thalmor in their plans. Why don't tell us how and why? I see no arguments, while I tried to reasonably argue about your commentary. And still, if so, that doesn't make the Rebellion a bad thing.

 

Also, I think you should re-read, like I did, imperistan's bigger article on the great war (page 13 of this thread). From reading this it's hard not to conclude the empire didn't have to sign the W-G-C, but still did (still follow me?). You can also conclude that the Civil War is indeed helping the Thalmor, but a Stormcloak victory would be just as bad for the Dominion as an Empire victory. The Empire mesed up it's diplomatic relations, and the refreshing Stormcloak Skyrim could reforge old bonds and unite Skyrim once more to fight the Thalmor. Finally, the Stormcloakes are very anti-Thalmor, as you can go see for yourself when adressing Galmar Stone-Fist, second in command of the Stormcloakes. You cannot say that about the Empire. I side with the side that is most anti-Thalmor.

 

In a next post coming soon I will reformulate my arguments for siding with the Stormcloak Rebellion and not the crumbeling Empire.

 

Down with the Thalmor,

 

A Stormcloak.

[StormHammer81]

@Victor111

 

For starters you displayed a petulant attitude in your post. You were and I would wager still are looking for a fight. Why don't you calm down?

 

Specifically though, in my last post I was speaking on thelamogio1 comments. I already commented on your post and did not take issue with you commenting on mine. I have been so busy trying to "Defend the Empire" I never really considered the Thalmor's viewpoint. There are many reasons why I could see one choosing to side with the Thalmor. This does not mean I support them, but I could see that. Their Empire is doing well, they're going somewhere. There's no discussion, no division, no fear in their eyes. Look at all of their accomplishments? We may not like them, but they have earned our respect or for some people, fear.

 

There is really no need to go deeper into your post, that was never my intention. You want me to see that you're being observant, then you should have immediately noticed I actually agreed with you on almost 40% of your points. The language was to express my feelings of awe and bewilderment at the fallout and power vacuum which would be left behind if the Empire was to die. And it would be off the hook. Those words were most certainly NOT directed at yours or anyone else's post. Once upon a time I almost went Stormcloak. I'm not a nice person, no, but I do respect your opinion. Although, I'm an Imperial, and like Tullius, I don't like Ulfric but I respect the Stormcloaks cause. Tullius however, doesn't understand the Nords, but he does respect them. He's there to just do his job, which that in itself to me is admirable. Like I said, Tullius is just there to fight the war, when he leaves, Elisif and the other Jarls will have the con. And arguably, I think that *most* of them would do a far-better job of putting Skyrim back together and keeping out the Thalmor than someone else who is going to divide the hell out of the land.

 

I am 100% Empire. Ultimately, there is no argument that you or anyone else can formulate that will convince me to change my mind. Imperistan had some good points, the same as you. However, the Stormcloaks are not the only ones "Fighting for their Homes." Stormcloaks are not the only "True Sons and Daughters of Skyrim." It laughable at least to me, for some organization to be... Fighting for Religious Freedom, which in a way they started the fight and then being Hypocritical about who is in their eyes, a "True son or Daughter of Skyrim." Think about it.

 

If the Empire were to die and I had the option, I may actually consider joining the Thalmor. Namely because my player is a High Elf, always has been really. I would never even in real life, join any cause that puts someone else's opinion at the expense of the Greater Good for ALL. I could never bring myself to take order from someone like Ulfric. I just couldn't do it. Especially if I was an Elf. And there's the problem. You Stormcloaks put... perhaps too much Stock in your own traditions. There are other races, other civilizations in Tamriel other than Nords. My God I respect the Nords, but Skyrim is not the Center of the Universe. Basically it's like this:

 

This is a quote I read from somewhere but I've modified it to serve this discussion:

 

"When they came for Whiterun, I did nothing because it wasn't my problem,

When they came for Solitude, I did nothing because it was so far away,

When they came for Tullius, I did nothing because I'm not an Imperial,

When they came for the Elves, I did nothing because I hate Elves,

When they came for the rest, I did nothing because the Khajits and Argonians are annoying,

And when they came for me, there was nobody left."

 

People like Ulfric who are so full of Vengeance and Hate will NEVER stop, they will NEVER be satisfied until they finally die and or everyone else they blame for their problems is 6 feet under.

 

Regarding Knarl-Stone, sometimes when something is too good to be true, it usually is. How about.... Legate Rikke, Tullius, Jarl of Whiterun, Markarth, Elisif, Alvor, Hadvar, Faescendil, lots of others I can't think of right now, all are Imperials who STRONGLY OPPOSE the Thalmor. The Empire in general OPPOSES the Thalmor but is bound by law, but only for the short run.

 

Also, I have provided NUMEROUS examples and arguments for why I accept as FACT that joining the Stormcloaks will make the Thalmor much more powerful in the long run. Maybe you should go back and re-read my posts??? "Oh, why don't you tell us how and why" (Sarcasm) I did, you refuse to hear it. But us Imperials and the few Thalmor people out there are supposed to hear you out, correct? Imperistan was right about the War and several other things, which is why we need to get the Hell rid of Titus Mede II before it's too late AND Nullify that damn Concordat.

 

And with that said and done, Ulfric and his crew wouldn't have a case now would they? I'm going to laugh when Skyrim Finally comes out with a DLC that brings a nullification to the Concordat. I can *hardly* wait to hear the excuses come pouring in. "Well, I joined the Stormcloaks because everyone else was..." OR "The Thalmor made me do it..." OR "Well my character was a Nord so it seemed like the right thing to do..." Mark my words, that sh*t is going to be Epic. Good quality entertainment for the whole Community.

 

There is no need for us to continue any hostility over this, so I will leave this post and "take a break." I have other things on my mind anyways. There is something about this entire discussion that just... I dunno it brings out people's interest like I've never seen before. Certainly is MUCH MORE INTERESTING to me than the current US Presidential Campaign. LMAO at least I have a choice and a voice and some appreciation for whoever's side I take in Skyrim. Seriously.

 

 

An Imperial High-Elf for Talos

Edited March 7, 2012 by bigmagy1981

[Thor.]

Meh if i had a chance i would take out the Stormcloaks then the Thalmor and then overthrow the emperor and proclaim myself King-Emperor Of Tamrial. :teehee: :teehee: :teehee: Sense the emperor is probably not Dragonborn, also unfit for rule and the Fires have run dark :teehee: False Emperor...:teehee::teehee: Edited March 8, 2012 by Thor.

[NaoriaFairsong]

I tried to stay as neutral as possible for most of the game, and I never did the civil war quests. However, if I were going to, I'd join the Empire, no questions asked.

 

Why?

 

I didn't care either way up until the quest where you had to get Tullius and Ulfric to agree to a temporary truce. When I got there, Ulfric acted like a spoiled brat. I hated that high elf woman just as much as he did, but he had to keep whining and complaining about her. And then he was completely unreasonable about stopping the war. Tullius seemed to understand that the war needed to stop for a short time until I was ready to go. But Ulfric? Nope. Ulfric wanted what he wanted, nothing less. He was completely disappointed in me for voting against the Imperials giving up Markarth AND Hjaalmarch? No. one city full of thieves for the other. Riften for Markarth. Fair trade? yes. Not only that, but when I looked to the left side of the table and saw all the Jarls that had helped me with stuff, I was like "Hey! I know them! Erm.. who's this guy to my right with the bear pelt on his head >_>?)

 

My point is, I was neutral up until I heard Ulfric talk. He's a total douchebag. But will I join a faction? Nope. The one thing keeping me from joining the Empire is the stupid Thalmore. Damn elves >_>

Edited March 11, 2012 by NaoriaFairsong

[sukeban]

@Naoria

 

I'm not a huge Stormcloak partisan, but (esp. for my Nord character) I do generally prefer them over the Imperials. I, too, thought that Ulfric's antics at the negotiating table were extreme (given the circumstances)... until I realized that Tullius has almost the exact same dialogue if you negotiate when the tables are turned. If the Empire has fewer holds than the Stormcloaks at the time of negotiation, he starts off the talks with the ultimatum that he will only continue the talks if he gets Riften from Ulfric and then gets mad if you turn down his request for Riften + Winterhold (or the Pale), calling you a Stormcloak sympathizer. Even if you give him the Rift as well as "reparations." So... really, with the exception of kicking out the Thalmor diplomat (but can you blame him, she tortured him for weeks when he was captured during the war), you can't say that Tullius > Ulfric based upon the "Season Unending" sequence.

 

@bigmagy

 

I fail to really see where the Ulfric = Nazi (your "first they came for" implication) characterization comes from. It seems like the same sort of knee-jerk, unthinking claim that many Stormcloak supports make against the Empire. Ulfric =/= Hitler due to the Grey Quarter, otherwise every American President = Hitler due to the existence of urban ghettos and barrios throughout the US. I mean, the President knows about them, why doesn't he do anything to help them? Certain police officers and private American citizens are racist as well as do racist things, why doesn't the President stop them? Clearly, the President must be racist! You see what I mean. Windhelm is a complicated mess, much like the USA; the Dunmer are, at some level, also partially responsible for why things are the way they are. Not predominantly responsible, because they are not the ones in power, but they are not just victims without agency. Certainly, that loud-mouthed Dunmer who runs the Corner Club does not help the situation in Windhelm any. And neither does Rolff Stone-Fist (the drunk).

 

As for the actual debate, the Empire isn't evil, but neither are the Stormcloaks. Ulfric is ambitious, yes; but really, who would want a listless High King with war on the horizon? Torygg was (by account) a milk-drinker who merely did what the Empire bade him do. Based on my experiences with her, I have no doubt that Elisif would be but more of the same weak tea. The Empire has waited thirty (THIRTY!) years to attack the Thalmor, and displays absolutely no signs of being prepared to do so anytime soon. The Thalmor are not as mighty as many make them out to be (otherwise they wouldn't have made peace after their defeat at the Red Ring Road). They can be beaten, but only if the battle is not fought on their terms. The only reason they won the Great War is because they executed that cowardly sneak-attack. The last thing the Thalmor will expect will be for Men to attack them directly, which is exactly what the Stormcloaks aim to do. Once the Stormcloaks have attacked, the Empire and Hammerfell will have no choice but to join in the heroic struggle against the accursed elves. This is far superior than passively waiting for the Thalmor to attack, which is what seems to be passing for strategy back in the Imperial City these days.

 

Also @bigmagy

 

There isn't any discussion or dissent within the Aldmeri Dominion because the Thalmor liquidated all opponents in their purges. Check out the Rising Threat series of books or chat with the High Elf Legate in the Rift. There is no fear in their eyes, but there is a tremendous fear in their hearts.

Edited March 12, 2012 by sukeban

[Nintii]

This is a major sticking point for me ... I have criss-crossed Skyrim dozens of times and have done countless quests ... but here, I have not made my decision.

 

I hate the Thalmor and the way they look down on humans and I hate the fact that the empire is bound to them through the White Gold Concordat ... yet I love the empire

and it's history of mankind's rise because of this i want to support them.

I want to see Solitude grow and the rest of Skyrim with it but without the Thalmor.

 

I kill the Thalmor at every opportunity I get.

On the other hand I can understand the Stormcloaks desire to be free from what looks like an oppressive empire - no doubt oppressive because of the Thalmor.

 

If this was my world to shape and forge then I'd do it this way.

I'd keep all of Skyrim in the empire but I'd give greater autonomy to the various regions and in exchange I would use their armies to war against the oppressive Thalmor

until every last one has been driven from our lands.

 

In favor of the Empire I would say, I support Imperial order and cohesian against a fragmented bunch of fiefdom's and possibly a greater threat from the outside ... the

empire gives a universal sense of peace to all of Skyrim ...

 

Yet, an independant Skyrim could also do the same with their armies ensuring that the Yarls are kept in check and thus also give the peoples of Skyrim a sense of a

"big brother" watching out for their interests but this would be limited to Skyrim and not all of the empire.

Therefore if a threat to humans were to manifest, instead of fragmented human kingdoms falling one by one, they would all stand together ... and so yes, kill the Thalmor

together get a bigger slice of independance for it.

 

So my answer is to stand for the empire.

 

Because the empire is larger and human, and it would make more sense to support them in order to keep their common enemies at bay.

[Thor.]

Looks like someone has the same view as me, but like my post I conquer and rule it myself. Well Your dragonborn after all, its in your blood.

[StormHammer81]

@sukeban

 

Hmmm. Where do I begin...

 

First of all, Ulfric is no President and I never said he was a member of the Nazi party.

 

A president represents, "All of the Citizens of a Nation" because he/she is ELECTED by them. Seriously, if you can't understand that...

 

Let's first look at what we have, shall we?

 

So, now... only "True Sons and Daughters of Skyrim" are eligible to join the Stormcloak ranks. Right?

 

This is a fallacy. Years early, Ulfric and his "Militia" ... murdered, tortured and otherwise eliminated the native Forsworn who took charge of Markarth after the Empire left those people to fend for themselves because of the craziness going on in Hammerfell at the time. Those Forsworn were AND still are "True Sons and Daughters of Skyrim" and Ulfric slaughtered them like animals.

 

Ok?

 

Next, we have the Imperials, many of them are, "True Sons and Daughters of Skyrim". Again, being slaughtered and harassed for the bad decisions their leaders made. Although they've lived in Skyrim for YEARS.

Definitely some of the Elves, Maybe a few of the Argonians and Khajits who Ulfric refuses to treat the same as everyone else are, "True Sons and Daughters of Skyrim". But they're "outsiders" who, although they contribute much to the culture and economy of Skyrim, well they don't belong, right?

 

See?

 

Ulfric's ethics appear selective at best. But then if this be the case, Why Make Such a Big Deal About Religion? Unless you're trying to get into the minds of the Nords. If you don't like everyone else whose not a Nord, then you ABSOLUTELY MUST get your message out to the Nords, who are like you. Those who "belong." Don't make Elves and Imperials your friends then. Cause you know, we're righteous and they don't belong.

 

What else, what else... OH YES!!!

 

This superstitious nonsense about, "The Empire has done nothing for 30 years." Pure B$. Hey, you go from having an Empire of (9) Glorious, Shining Provinces to an Empire of (3) wore torn survivors and look so good you will not. The Empire and it's people have been through hell and back. While the Empire has not engaged the Thalmor directly, which is probably best, they have been building themselves up. Admittedly, much has changed from before. You can't expect the Empire to go through something like that and then... go back into the same war again with much less. That's not reasonable. Let's not forget that now things will be even worse because of Ulfric. After what happened, 30 years is about right. Everything is strained too. Just like a person who had a bad accident or something. You have to rehabilitate yourself and sacrifices will almost certainly be FORCED on you along the way. So if I get into a car accident and can no longer work, should I be killed because I can't pay bills I owe to someone else?

 

Or should they not have compassion on me and understand, it's not me, it's the situation. Again, what would Talos do? What would some of these Religious folks do?

 

And if you think I'm posting based on a knee-jerk reaction, then you haven't read my posts. Which if you had, you would have known that I've already read all of the Rising Threat series and met Legate Faescendil.

 

But I would argue the as you called it, "Nazi comparison" may not be exactly the same, but the shoe still fits. Go to the camps and talk to the Officers. When we're done with this, then we're going to get them. And once we get them, we'll get the rest of them.

 

Once we get the Imperials, then we'll start on the elves. Once we're done with them, we'll start clearing out the rest of the outsiders.

 

It's kool though, it's kool. Know why? Because once Ulfric gets his way and all of us Imperials are dead and gone, you are going to have UPRISINGS and CIVIL UNREST and more CIVIL WAR like you couldn't imagine. I can easily see the Jarl of Falkreath and maybe Markarth getting sick of Ulfric and his B$, then turning to "The Neighbors" for help.

 

And the Forsworn are going to be crazier than ever before. Not to mention all the bandits and criminals Ulfric has working for his cause on the side. Skyrim will most certainly become a dirty, chaotic, unlawful place and will die a cold, slow death. Then Tamriel with it.

 

That's all for now, back to work.

Edited March 13, 2012 by bigmagy1981

[StormHammer81]

Disregard. Edited March 13, 2012 by bigmagy1981