shotgun188 Posted April 12, 2012 Share Posted April 12, 2012 (edited) What would you have done when your army is weak and tired after long fighting? Titus Mede II could risk a massacre against his people if he didn't sign that contract (I estimate 40% chance)he did sign it, smart choice. The worship of Talos is banned until the empire has gained enough power to strike back. And besides why are people always making a point of this? Look around you. The Stormcloaks are not banning god, they are banning people, argonians, out of their own cities. They force Dunmers who fled their own homes to live in slums and then gonna say that they are spying for the Imperials. Are these things less worse than banning a single god? well your turn now...This God created the Empire. This God is the God of men. He and Akatosh were the two most important Gods to the Empire back in Oblivion. Akatosh was the one that created the first dragonborn. Akatosh was also the one that made YOU dragonborn. Talos was also a dragonborn so Akatosh must have supported him. Talos ended the many wars in Tamriel and united the provinces under one banner. He founded the Empire and made it's symbol the symbol of Akatosh. After doing all this, Akatosh made him a God, a God that protects men. By abandoning him, the Empire have basically said, "Guys, we decided to abandon our divine leader who was made a God by our other divine leader and let Elves that want to destroy all men control us. Did we mention that the reason they made us abandon him is so that they can destroy us?". Edited April 13, 2012 by shotgun188 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StormHammer81 Posted April 13, 2012 Share Posted April 13, 2012 (edited) Perhaps but that doesn't make the Stormcloaks "right." Especially a murderer like Ulfric. And it doesn't necessarily make the Empire wrong. Just things are different now. And after reading "The Bear of Markarth," I want nothing to do with Ulfric or the Stormcloaks. I'll take a corrupt Empire anyday over a Genocidal madman. Another thing too, I did some more research and the Thalmor didn't actually start kicking in doors until after the Markarth incident gave them license to enter Skyrim. And during this time, it is confirmed through the dossier that Ulfric was working as a cooperative Thalmor agent. Edited April 14, 2012 by bigmagy1981 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shotgun188 Posted April 13, 2012 Share Posted April 13, 2012 (edited) The Imperials aren't the good guys anymore. They were back in Oblivion but now that the blessed(by Akatosh) bloodline that used to rule(The Septims) is long dead and the Thalmor have gotten a stranglehold on them, they are just an Empire by name. They don't even control their own homeland. They gave up on their founder and divine protector when they would've won the war. The Redguards of Hammerfell pushed back the Thalmor when the Empire abandoned them and if the Nords of Skyrim, the Bretons of High Rock and the Imperials of Cyrodiil were fighting with them, they could've at least pushed the Thalmor back to Summerset Isles, Valenwood and Elsweyr. The Nords know that they could've won the war and that's why they're so annoyed with the Imperials. The ban on Talos worship didn't have to happen. Gods mean a lot in the TES universe and the Empire used to have two Gods behind them, Akatosh(because of the Septims/) and Talos(Because he formed the Empire and became the God of men). Now because the Septims are gone and Talos worship is banned, they have none. I wonder if Akatosh was the reason that the Empire was successful back in Oblivion. Ever since the Septim bloodline of rulers(that was started by Talos, who was blessed with dragonblood by Akatosh)ended, the Empire had REALLY bad luck. Edited April 13, 2012 by shotgun188 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StormHammer81 Posted April 13, 2012 Share Posted April 13, 2012 (edited) Well, the Imperials in a way are the good guys. Ulfric and the Stormcloaks even admit the Imperials are the good guys at the end when Tullius says, "Well then what does that make you?" Hadvar, Alvor, Jarl B and many others are all good Imperials. It's the Emperor whose messed up, the Elder Council is not even on his side, hence the DB quest. Get rid of the Emperor and give the Empire a chance and you'll see things restored to the way they were before. Edited April 15, 2012 by bigmagy1981 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZephyrGames Posted April 14, 2012 Share Posted April 14, 2012 The mistake that people make everytime in this debates is thinking like this is our world. It's not, this is Nirn not Earth. This is Elder Scrolls. Men and Mer have been in war since they first met. Ysgramor was the first human to set his foot on Tamriel and many humans followed him because there was a civil war in the homeland of Men (Atmora). They built a city named Saarthal and lived happily with the Falmer (Snow Elves) around the area and their population bloomed. However the Falmer attacked the city of Saarthal and killed all humans; only Ysgramor and his two sons were able to fled back to Atmora. Now the reason why the Falmer attacked was because Men, according to legends, had found an artifact named the Eye of Magnus and were keeping it underground so none would ever get his/her hands in this power. The elves however wish to be immortal so they wanted to get the artifact for themselves so they could experiment with it. The elves blame Lorkhan because they'd be immortal now and they are trying to do anything to reclaim their immortality. Possibly because of this the Dwemer disappeared when they tried to regain immortality using the Heart of Lorkhan. Now Men are a different breed. They do not believe that humans are descended from Aedra, they believe they were created from Lorkhan and thank him for their existence. This is the sole reason for all the wars of Men and Mer. You cannot turn this into a racism debate, this is Nirn, this is Elder Scrolls. This is not about skincolor and eyeshape, this is not about race, this is far more bigger than that. Men and Mer just cannot live together, they have nothing but hate against each other. They will always be in war and it will always be about who is the better race. It's part of their history, it's part of their existence. We cannot judge them since we do not live in a fantasy world and cannot adapt to their feelings. But all in all: Tamriel is a ****hole. Two powerfull races, Mer and Men, fighting for it for eternity; Khajiits in Elsweyr, Argonians in Black Marsh; and even the humans are fighting against each other. The land is so divided, the Empire is falling thanks to the death of Martin Septim. Even Hammerfell rebelled against the Emperor when he decided to give part of Hammerfell to the Altmeri Dominion. What did the Redguards do? Well, they kicked the Altmeris out! Now they have no respect towards the Empire. Both Hammerfell and Skyrim (if the Stormcloaks win) are against the Empire while the war against the Altmer is coming near. Hammerfell was one of the strongest with Cyrodiil in the Great War and the Emperor gave them no respect, but gave their land to the Altmeri. Now, yes, the Stormcloaks are a bit racist, mostly because they feel betrayed. Skyrim is the home of humans, it is where their ancestors slaughtered the Falmer and where Ysgramor built Windhelm on the grave of his oldest son. Skyrim is the place with earliest human history; Atmora is just a frozen wasteland today. Skyrim is where the age of men started. Now to see this all taken away because of the Emperor is devastating after you've fought for the Empire against the Altmer and lost many of your fellow men on the battlegrounds. It's just a game, but I can understand the hatred these people are feeling. But no matter what happens; in TES VI the Empire will fall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StormHammer81 Posted April 14, 2012 Share Posted April 14, 2012 (edited) It's a fallacy to say the Empire has to fall. I mean, if you don't like the Empire fine. The only way the Empire will fall is if the player allows it by following Ulfric. In a way, by killing the Empire you're killing your chance to become Emperor. Which would you prefer, to follow a murderer or become an heir to the thrown of a great Empire? I FOLLOW NO MAN Edited April 14, 2012 by bigmagy1981 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marharth Posted April 14, 2012 Share Posted April 14, 2012 (edited) Haven't posted in a while, but I want to bring up one of my previous points. What does the empire even gain from being in Skyrim? There aren't that many resources in Skyrim that couldn't be collected elsewhere. I would argue it hurts the empire to stay in Skyrim due to the number of troops and resources they have to put there. Edited April 14, 2012 by marharth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shotgun188 Posted April 14, 2012 Share Posted April 14, 2012 The mistake that people make everytime in this debates is thinking like this is our world. It's not, this is Nirn not Earth. This is Elder Scrolls. Men and Mer have been in war since they first met. Ysgramor was the first human to set his foot on Tamriel and many humans followed him because there was a civil war in the homeland of Men (Atmora). They built a city named Saarthal and lived happily with the Falmer (Snow Elves) around the area and their population bloomed. However the Falmer attacked the city of Saarthal and killed all humans; only Ysgramor and his two sons were able to fled back to Atmora. Now the reason why the Falmer attacked was because Men, according to legends, had found an artifact named the Eye of Magnus and were keeping it underground so none would ever get his/her hands in this power. The elves however wish to be immortal so they wanted to get the artifact for themselves so they could experiment with it. The elves blame Lorkhan because they'd be immortal now and they are trying to do anything to reclaim their immortality. Possibly because of this the Dwemer disappeared when they tried to regain immortality using the Heart of Lorkhan. Now Men are a different breed. They do not believe that humans are descended from Aedra, they believe they were created from Lorkhan and thank him for their existence. This is the sole reason for all the wars of Men and Mer. You cannot turn this into a racism debate, this is Nirn, this is Elder Scrolls. This is not about skincolor and eyeshape, this is not about race, this is far more bigger than that. Men and Mer just cannot live together, they have nothing but hate against each other. They will always be in war and it will always be about who is the better race. It's part of their history, it's part of their existence. We cannot judge them since we do not live in a fantasy world and cannot adapt to their feelings. But all in all: Tamriel is a ****hole. Two powerfull races, Mer and Men, fighting for it for eternity; Khajiits in Elsweyr, Argonians in Black Marsh; and even the humans are fighting against each other. The land is so divided, the Empire is falling thanks to the death of Martin Septim. Even Hammerfell rebelled against the Emperor when he decided to give part of Hammerfell to the Altmeri Dominion. What did the Redguards do? Well, they kicked the Altmeris out! Now they have no respect towards the Empire. Both Hammerfell and Skyrim (if the Stormcloaks win) are against the Empire while the war against the Altmer is coming near. Hammerfell was one of the strongest with Cyrodiil in the Great War and the Emperor gave them no respect, but gave their land to the Altmeri. Now, yes, the Stormcloaks are a bit racist, mostly because they feel betrayed. Skyrim is the home of humans, it is where their ancestors slaughtered the Falmer and where Ysgramor built Windhelm on the grave of his oldest son. Skyrim is the place with earliest human history; Atmora is just a frozen wasteland today. Skyrim is where the age of men started. Now to see this all taken away because of the Emperor is devastating after you've fought for the Empire against the Altmer and lost many of your fellow men on the battlegrounds. It's just a game, but I can understand the hatred these people are feeling. But no matter what happens; in TES VI the Empire will fall.Once I heard that if the Thalmor kill all the humans, they can become immortal, is this true? (this part is not related to the quote above)Anyway, Talos was the starter of the Septim dynasty. His links with the Empire might have weakened a little after Martin died. The ban of Talos worship probably weakened it A LOT. There is lots of speculation in the TES universe on whether Talos is really a God or not. The Elves think he's not and they are trying to get all humans to believe that he's not so that they won't have the added morale of knowing that they have a God helping them. I don't know whether Talos is still helping this completely different Empire that just uses the symbol of the old one or not but I'm almost certain that Akatosh isn't. Akatosh didn't give the Empire any dragonborn saviours or leaders after the Septims. He gave the world a saviour but by the looks of it, he couldn't care less about the Empire anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StormHammer81 Posted April 14, 2012 Share Posted April 14, 2012 (edited) Yeah that's what the Thalmor think. And if Skyrim secedes than the Empire is dead and the door is wide open for the Thalmor to rape, murder and otherwise destroy everyone. Or I should say everyone else because Skyrim would be the last place they hit. And they are already in control of Hammerfell. They have to be, if the Alik'r are taking orders from them. The Thalmor probably let Hammerfell go with that understanding because they're hunting members of the Royal Family for speaking out against the Thalmor. Wouldn't that be interesting if that's actually what we learn from the next DLC. It's my understanding the next DLC will be Hammerfell. One clue is some of the Alik'r carry their "House Keys." There will probably be a quest in there where Hammerfell has the option to rejoin the Empire. Edited April 14, 2012 by bigmagy1981 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZephyrGames Posted April 14, 2012 Share Posted April 14, 2012 (edited) Skyrim: The_Great_War I do not believe Hammerfell is under Thalmor control at all. The Redguards kicked their ***. Hammerfell is independent and have no respect for the Empire. However, I do believe they might join the Empire under a new Emperor. The Empire will fall anyway, just like Rome. It's only Cyrodiil and High Rock now, and I wouldn't be surprised if High Rock would start a revolution too. Titus Mede II f***ed things up pretty badly. Should've kept the war going on, did he really think peace would last forever? No chance. Men and Mer will be in war forever and now even Men are against each other. Edited April 14, 2012 by ZephyrGames Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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