The Great Imperial vs. Stormcloak Debate

[thecabanaboy]

I used to be well in favour of the Stormcloaks, but the longer I played the more I realised they were the true hypocrites. If I had a dollar for every time I heard someone say that my kind didn't belong here or Skyrim belonged to the Nords I wouldn't need to do any quests. I think the best way to compare the two is by the capital cities of each faction.

 

Wildhelm - we have the other races treated poorly, people are suspicious and depressed Ulfric doesn't care what happens to them if he is deposed then the new leader is Freewinter, a man of honour and one who pays you out of his own pocket to protect the foreigners in his city. Most of his Jarls i.e Dawnstar and Winterhold are both old racist bigots and all they do is hate and complain.

 

Solitude - pretty much every race is living here in relative harmony and it's really a microcosm for the rest of the Empire. Their motto is pretty much do the right thing and we'll leave you alone. Even the Jarl/High Queen asks you to make a pilgrimage to the shrine of Talos for her so they aren't exactly being strict on the Thalmor treaty.

Tullius is a bit of a knob, but he is a pragmatist and he isn't trying to start a fight he can't win. I can just as easily see him stepping up to fight the Thalmor as I can the Stormcloaks.

 

None is perfect, and I think that was the intent. At the beginning you are thrust into the stormcloak view, hell the imperials are literally about to chop your head off, but if you look deeper then you realise that Ulfric would have won, pissed the Thalmor off and ultimately caused Skyrim to be plunged into a war they couldn't win. Tulius would bide his time and then strike when it was the correct time to do so.

 

To sum up, the Stormcloaks are close-minded bigots and the Imperials are more rigid on the surface, but underneath they just want the fighting to stop.

[Gabryal]

I used to be well in favour of the Stormcloaks, but the longer I played the more I realised they were the true hypocrites. If I had a dollar for every time I heard someone say that my kind didn't belong here or Skyrim belonged to the Nords I wouldn't need to do any quests. I think the best way to compare the two is by the capital cities of each faction.

 

Wildhelm - we have the other races treated poorly, people are suspicious and depressed Ulfric doesn't care what happens to them if he is deposed then the new leader is Freewinter, a man of honour and one who pays you out of his own pocket to protect the foreigners in his city. Most of his Jarls i.e Dawnstar and Winterhold are both old racist bigots and all they do is hate and complain.

 

Solitude - pretty much every race is living here in relative harmony and it's really a microcosm for the rest of the Empire. Their motto is pretty much do the right thing and we'll leave you alone. Even the Jarl/High Queen asks you to make a pilgrimage to the shrine of Talos for her so they aren't exactly being strict on the Thalmor treaty.

Tullius is a bit of a knob, but he is a pragmatist and he isn't trying to start a fight he can't win. I can just as easily see him stepping up to fight the Thalmor as I can the Stormcloaks.

 

None is perfect, and I think that was the intent. At the beginning you are thrust into the stormcloak view, hell the imperials are literally about to chop your head off, but if you look deeper then you realise that Ulfric would have won, pissed the Thalmor off and ultimately caused Skyrim to be plunged into a war they couldn't win. Tulius would bide his time and then strike when it was the correct time to do so.

 

To sum up, the Stormcloaks are close-minded bigots and the Imperials are more rigid on the surface, but underneath they just want the fighting to stop.

 

Goes back to my question of " Are you judging people by the standards of your time and place vs. there's. " If you play the other TES games you realize Cyrodil is just as bad if not worse. Morrowind was definitely worse. Tullius may be the exception to Imperial rule, and I won't deny he's a good general and a pragmatist, but he is also tunnel visioned, and seems to believe that somehow the fighting will stop. It will never stop so long as the Thalmor are allowed any place upon Tamriel, and the Empire is dead with Titus Mede II on the throne. It's probably dead no matter what, so essentially what Tullius is doing is fighting a war that the Empire ( or what's left of it, essentially just Cyrodil ) can't afford. His battles in Skyrim will accomplish nothing in the end except make Cyrodil weaker, and it's a matter of time till High Rock breaks away ( The Thalmor are so deeply entrenched there that it's Imperial Territory pretty much just on the map ). Ulfric is no Saint, by any means, but he does care about Skyrim and his race, and really he cares more about it than he cares about himself. Tullius cares about an idea, nothing more, and he'll die in battle one way or another.

 

The " Empire " is dead, and there is nothing but war in their future, and eventually my guess is that the Thalmor will be the one's he finally dies too. I've played through the campaign 7 times now, 6 times as an Imperial, and frankly, I knew at the end of the first six that no matter what, I had fought a lost cause. Win or Lose, no Nordic Legions will ever be what they once were. Nords won't support the Empire as they have in the past, and the Nords were really the Empire's last place to draw troops from. The Imperials can't win against the Thalmor with just their own Imperial Soldiers. With Skyrim in Chaos, and it still is long after the War is over if you're an Imperial, they simply cannot field Nordic troops the way they once could. There is no winning for the Imperials, however there is for the Nords. The only Nation of the Empire that -can't- resist a full on invasion by the Thalmor is Cyrodil itself. Hammerfell managed it, so could Skyrim, it's only Cyrodil that has lost too much in power, prestige, etc to fail to resist. As they failed to resist without the Redguard and Nord Legions during the Great War that led to this mess.

 

Tullius may be a pragmatist, but he's no humanitarian. He wants Skyrim because Skyrim equals more men and women for the Legion, and without Skyrim Cyrodil has no chance. All he sees is power, not people, and he's willing to throw people's lives away just to protect his home. If you want ultimate Rascism look at the way the Imperial Steward mocks even Jarl Balgruuf at the beginning, look at how Tullius treats his own second in command because she's a Nord.

 

He doesn't see the Nords as anything more than power he can project, they are barely human in his eyes, and he'll throw their lives away for the sake of the " Empire " the Imperials are the ultimate racists here, as you said they are pragmatists. Meaning they'll mock, but still " support " any race that will help give them more power.

 

Just read the history from the end of the Oblivion Crisis till The Great War and you'll see what I mean.

 

Ulfric may be openly racist against Dunmer, and against Argonians. His supporters may be old men, but there is often a wisdom in the old men who remember the old ways, even if their hearts have grown old and bitter. The Imperials hide their racism, so they can feel superior for it, but at the end of the day they see other races as something to be used for their own power, not as actual people, with actual feelings.

 

If you play through the game as an Imperial you see the unfeeling callousness of Tullius's attitude towards each Jarl he rplaces, in contrast you can see that Ulfric sees each Jarl he replaces as a deeply unfortunate necessity. He takes them one at a time, respects their words even if he disagrees with them. He treats them as people, not as chess pieces.

 

He's an honest racist, Tullius is a dishonest one. It's a comparison often made between the Germanic People's towards the end of the Roman Empire, and the Romans themselves. The Romans always felt superior ( look at the way they " honored " other cultures by deciding whether or not they could be Roman Citizens. For a province of the Roman Empire, citizenship had to be earned where those born in Rome were born with it ). It's the worst type of Racism in my book the " I have black friends " type, even though you've never had those friends over to your house.

 

That's just how it is, not since the Septim's has anything like mutual respect come out of the Imperial City, the Redguards saw it, The Bosmer Saw it, The Khajiit saw it, The Bretons saw it, and now Skyrim sees it. Ask yourself this, considering how many provinces in the last 20 years have broken away from the Empire why is it that Skyrim is so important? Why is Skyrim more important than Hammerfell, or High Rock, or Elsywer, or Valenwood? I'll tell you why, because the Nords are the backbone of the Imperial Legion, and the Empire can't afford to lose them. They aren't concerned about Skyrim as a place, they're concerned about Skyrim as a resource.

 

Sounds like Corporate America right before AIG and Global Crossing tanked the economy if you ask me.

[tredmillion]

depends entirely on my characters background and character.

 

for me though it depends on what mood im in, if im being pragmatic and logical and going for best chance against thalmor, it'd be the empire, for most other things go stormcloaks (long as i can kill ulfric, he's a power hungry tool)

 

then again if im being really pragmatic i'd replace ulfric, sit down and set things straight with the empire, e.g. we're gonna break away, we both hate the thalmor, lets indulge this civil nonsense for a bit whilst actually building up positions of power then lets ruin the thalmor, after that we're doin what we wanna do :P

[Bormo]

My second toon was a dark elf and since I had gone Imperial with my first (Orc) I felt compelled to go Stormcloak but right away it makes you feel dirty siding with them as an elf. Afterward I made a Nord and couldn't justify going Imperial cause of the ban of Talos worship, the Imperial siding Nords can call him traitor all they want but their betraying a god.

[Gabryal]

My second toon was a dark elf and since I had gone Imperial with my first (Orc) I felt compelled to go Stormcloak but right away it makes you feel dirty siding with them as an elf. Afterward I made a Nord and couldn't justify going Imperial cause of the ban of Talos worship, the Imperial siding Nords can call him traitor all they want but their betraying a god.

 

In my mind the Imperials are betraying the Empire by outlawing Talos worship. Talos was, afterall, Tiber Septim, the founder of the Empire.

 

Of course the current Imperial House is the Mede, and they wouldn't mind as bad if the Septim's went down, but considering every game before now you were helping out the Septim's, not the Mede's there is a distinction. Being an Imperial who's in favor of the Talos ban is not being an Imperial, it's being someone who's willing to throw away the greatest Emperor you ever had. Honestly they could have given away Skyrim entirely and not disgusted me more than the ban on Talos worship. It isn't a Nord God, it's the Father of the Empire.

 

To give you an idea, can you imagine Imperial Rome ever Un-deifying Julius Caesar? They didn't even when they made the state religion Christianity ( They Sainted him, but same thing when you're switching from a poly-theistic to a mono-theistic ). They'd rather have watched the Empire crumble than to deny Caesar. I've said it before, without Caesar there is no Roman Empire. Without Tiber Septim ( Talos ) there is no Empire.

 

The second the Mede's were willing to ban Talos worship, was the exact instance that the Empire died. Everything since then has been after-shocks, Hammerfell defeated the Thalmor on it's own, Skyrim can too, and for once the Imperials will have to take care of themselves. If they can.

 

Always remember that when the Imperial City was sacked it was Redguards and Nords who marched to take it back, not Imperials. It was the Redguard and Nord Legions that left their home to save the Empire. They left their lands in the hands of militias ( the Al'kir in Hammerfell and the Stormcloaks in Skyrim ) to come to a land that wasn't technically their own to save a city that they weren't really welcome in ( Anyone else remember the way that Redguards and Nords were treated in Cyrodil in Oblivion? I sure do ). So what thanks did they get?

 

1) The Emperor tried to give half of hammerfell to the Thalmor, the Redguards said f*** off, seceded, fought another five years, and beat the Thalmor

2) The Emperor gave the Thalmor the right to Police the Empire ( especially Skyrim ) hauling off his subjects without appeal to Imperial Law

3) The Emperor banned the worship of the Founder of the Empire, and a Nord to boot.

 

So essentially he was saved by two groups of people, who he immediately turned on when things got a little rough.

 

The Mede's are a pathetic imitation of the greatness that the Septim's used to be. The Empire is dead, whether you side with the Imperials or the Stormcloaks, the Thalmor one the second that the Emperor turned his back on his subjects. What point is the Empire if it can't protect it's people, so people can side with the Imperials if they want, they can delude themselves into thinking that the Imperials can defeat the Thalmor if everyone just sticks together.

 

Reality is that they can't. Not because they don't have the men, or the strategy, they don't have the will. They didn't have the will to tell the Thalmor to go blow it out their royal elven assholes, and they never will, not while the Mede's are in charge, and essentially sink the Empire itself into another civil war ( like the one that brought the Mede's to power in the first place ) which would suit me just fine honestly.

 

The Redguards defeated the Thalmor by themselves, Skyrim could too, they both have done so before while fighting -for- the Empire, I don't see why they couldn't while fighting for themselves. Hell they could even create a military alliance to take on the Thalmor till they were destroyed, wouldn't hurt anything for them to team up for a bit, since between the two of them they're more than powerful enough so long as Cyrodil isn't holding them back and taking all their best warriors to use defending places other than Skyrim and Hammerfell.

 

High Rock has more or less allied itself with the Thalmor anyway, which kinda puts the Orcs in a bad way, since they're a long way away from any Imperial help and the Nords, Redguards, and Bretons have all destroyed Orsimum at one point or another, and to get imperial help they'd either have to march through Hammerfell, Skyrim, or land ships at High Rock. All of which would involve a long trek through hostile waters or lands. The smartest thing for the Orcs to do would be to secede themselves, declare a sort of " neutrality " in the 15th century Swiss Sense, in that they'll export Mercenaries to either Hammerfell or to Skyrim so long as neither attacks Orsimum itself. Since it's equally beneficial to both Hammerfell and Skyrim to have access to Orcish Mercenaries, and that it would unify the Orcs and the other side, if one side broke the neutrality, it would be a win win for everyone, except of course the Bretons of High Rock.

 

Hammerfell and Skyrim might as well sign a deal to split High Rock between themselves, that place hasn't been anything but trouble for either for 400 years, sounds harsh but it's true. Also secures the north which allows Skyrim to protect it's South from any Imperial Nonsense and it's East from Argonian and possibly Dunmer Aggression, goaded on by the Thalmor ( who have deep claws in both societies ) while at the same time freeing up Skyrim's rather impressive Navy ( read the wiki's ;) Skyrim and Hammerfell supply nearly all of the Imperial Navy. When Hammerfell seceded it took about half the Navy with it ), since Hammerfell simply cannot be ignored from it's position North of Valenwood and the Kingdoms that used to be Elswyr nor even that far from the Summerset Isles themselves, the Thalmor would be thrown on the defensive at sea, to the north... and to the south.

 

When you look at the map it's sometimes easy to forget that High Rock and Skyrim are almost dead south of the Summerset Isles ( you have to remember that heading North from Skyrim crosses the map to the south of Summerset ) which leads to a whole nother set of problems for the Thalmor, ships from High Rock, Solitude, and Windhelm ports could easily destroy ports all along the Southern Isles, perhaps even blockade Alinor itself, and the Thalmor could do nothing about it without weakening it's Navy to the North, at which point they can pretty much be assured the Redguards will pounce. The Redguards are a people of long memory after all, hell the Crowns are one of the longest lived human institutions on the mainland ( hearkening back to the first days of the Redguards on Tamriel, and the Redguards were the first men to land on Tamriel ) and they're still around. You can bet they'll remember the burning and murder of surrendering troops of their southern ports at the beginning of the Great War.

 

Ports along Valenwood would burn, and Redguard Naval vessels would attack any weakened naval positions north of Summerset Isles, conceivably they themselves blockading Alinor, and that's just the situation on Sea.

 

Should Skyrim attack from the South at any time with just it's Navy, it gives the Redguards a more or less free hand to strike west into what's left of the Empire, or strike south into Valenwood, or both. Taking Northern Valenwood would take most of the ports of that Nation, leaving Thalmor troops without a means of supplies without invading Cyrodil again. That alone might be enough for the puppet Colovian Dynasty in Valenwood to be overthrown by the Bosmer, since they hate it almost as much as they hate the Empire for abandoning them in the first place. A negotiated peace ( perhaps something even as a territorial trade in exchange for Military support. Bosmer joining the fight against the Summerset Isles in exchange for their ports back, for trading purposes at the beginning of course ) plus thousands of Thalmor prisoners.

 

The next step of course would be either a Nord, or a Redguard invasion of the Isles themselves, and both have more than enough reason to do so. Hate is a strong motivator and both hate them with a passion. All this could come to pass if just -one- of the two nations of either Skyrim or Hammerfell were to take the fight to the Thalmor with the other acting as they would almost certainly do. An organized offensive between the two would crush the Isles like a bear trap.

 

So who needs the Imperials again?

 

Likely after the Thalmor are made to pay ( and dearly ) by the people they wronged so horribly ( the Bosmer, Nords, and Redguards ) the three groups would turn home and begin their own expansions. Hammerfell likely into Cyrodil, Skyrim into Argonia, and Valenwood into Elswyr. All territories that the three races have been eyeing for some time. Of course this is hard luck on the Imperials, Khajit, Argonians, and Dunmer ( It wouldn't be Hard luck on the Altmer, they had it coming ) but honestly all those groups have done the first three very wrong in the past. It shouldn't really surprise them that they get paid back now. The Dunmer might even make their own play to take, and then hold onto and found, a new Dunmer country in eastern Cyrodil. Which considering how they play it diplomatically, might succeed. Reorganize the Council with more progressive houses. Offer Military alliances to the new " big three " and attack Argonia and Cyrodil, both of which the Dunmer have truly been betrayed by, and dishonorably so ( and the Dunmer are big on their honor, enough so that even Ulfric respect their sense of Honor, if not them themselves ). That could secure them a place, though not a huge one, in a Tamriel future.

 

The truly doomed races, at least if you play as a Stormcloaks, are the Bretons, High Elves, Imperials, Argonians, and Khajit. The only one of which I truly feel sorry for is the Khajit, who aside from some relatively small wars with Valenwood, really haven't bothered anyone too terribly much. The others really really have it coming ( some might argue the Bretons don't, look em up, they're almost as bad as the High Elves, and worse than the Imperials )

 

The map would get Carved up anyway, with perhaps Cyrodil shrunk to just the Imperial city and it's outlying farmland. I doubt any group would truly seize the city as to do so would be to declare themselves de facto the new Emperor of Tamriel, something that would almost inevitably lead to a massive war between the Bosmer, Nords, and Redguards. Something none of those three races wants, and honestly none of those races are greedy enough to want it. Greed isn't really in the nature of any of those groups, not saying they won't bargain for what they can get, but the reality is that force of arms for them is more a matter of honor ( and payback ) than for conquest overall, at least in this point of their history.

 

Essentially what I'm saying is that supporting the Empire in TES V is a little bit like making an ugly girl prom queen ( I didn't go to prom, no idea what happens to make a prom queen, so don't hate on me too much for that statement ) it makes no sense. Everyone knows the tiara doesn't make her pretty, it's just an ugly girl with a crown on her head, and that's the Empire in this day and age. An ugly girl with a crown on it's head.

 

Don't date the crowned ugly girl, date the poor girl with the cool accent, who likes video games and skips prom to play World of Warcraft. You can guarantee that she'll have at least looked up some interesting bedroom techniques online at one point or another.

 

( Gamer girls are so hot, they get an automatic +1 on attraction factor just for knowing what TES stands for ).

 

That's my opinion anyway.

 

The sum up again is: Don't date the crowned ugly chick.

[StormHammer81]

So I was playing today and noticed something at Helgen, probably not important but it's like, there's two Imperial flags. That Evil Imperial chick is standing over by one and Hadvar is over by the other. Now, in a way that seems pretty symbolic to me. So, on one side you have the Evil, Corrupt, Decadent, Titus Mede II express Empire. Then on the right, there's the Legitimate, Understanding, Wise Hadvar Olde School Empire. Empire has two faces. And then you're standing in the middle trying to decide. If you go to the left, then you follow Ulfric and seek to kill the Empire represented by the Evil Imp Officer Lady. Go right and you're trying to make things right by fixing the problem as Hadvar is NOT down with some of the things the Empire has been doing. Once TMII resigns, you do not have to swear loyalty to him or to "his" Empire, it's just to the Empire when taking the Imperial oath. I usually wait until late in the game to join the Imperials. The Empire is not all bad and the Stormcloaks are not all good. They both have good and bad. Last game I went Stormcloak and I quit playing after the Thalmor embassy quest because killing the Empire is helping the Thalmor and there are many good people still left in the Empire. And I don't like being used. It's all about whose in charge and when I did the quest to have an audience with the Emperor, the impression I got from the G-Man was that there are many people both on the Imperial Council and throughout the Imperial ranks who do not like TMII and want him gone for the good of Tamriel. They just can't do anything while he's in charge and Skyrim can't do anything until North Watch Keep is cleared. From both of these things, it seems pretty obvious to me change is on the way.

 

Upon taking the new Imperial oath, just to the Empire, I really felt good about it. Felt much better than swearing uhhh "Eternal Loyalty to Ulfric". *Chuckles*

 

If Talos wants the Empire dead, so be it however, I will not be the reason why. :) And, I think Talos wouldn't approve of the WGC or TMII however, he also wouldn't approve of brothers and sisters fighting each other over some crazy Elves and a weak Emperor.

Edited November 18, 2012 by bigmagy1981

[Gabryal]

So I was playing today and noticed something at Helgen, probably not important but it's like, there's two Imperial flags. That Evil Imperial chick is standing over by one and Hadvar is over by the other. Now, in a way that seems pretty symbolic to me. So, on one side you have the Evil, Corrupt, Decadent, Titus Mede II express Empire. Then on the right, there's the Legitimate, Understanding, Wise Hadvar Olde School Empire. Empire has two faces. And then you're standing in the middle trying to decide. If you go to the left, then you follow Ulfric and seek to kill the Empire represented by the Evil Imp Officer Lady. Go right and you're trying to make things right by fixing the problem as Hadvar is NOT down with some of the things the Empire has been doing. Once TMII resigns, you do not have to swear loyalty to him or to "his" Empire, it's just to the Empire when taking the Imperial oath. I usually wait until late in the game to join the Imperials. The Empire is not all bad and the Stormcloaks are not all good. They both have good and bad. Last game I went Stormcloak and I quit playing after the Thalmor embassy quest because killing the Empire is helping the Thalmor and there are many good people still left in the Empire. And I don't like being used. It's all about whose in charge and when I did the quest to have an audience with the Emperor, the impression I got from the G-Man was that there are many people both on the Imperial Council and throughout the Imperial ranks who do not like TMII and want him gone for the good of Tamriel. They just can't do anything while he's in charge and Skyrim can't do anything until North Watch Keep is cleared. From both of these things, it seems pretty obvious to me change is on the way.

 

Upon taking the new Imperial oath, just to the Empire, I really felt good about it. Felt much better than swearing uhhh "Eternal Loyalty to Ulfric". *Chuckles*

 

If Talos wants the Empire dead, so be it however, I will not be the reason why. :) And, I think Talos wouldn't approve of the WGC or TMII however, he also wouldn't approve of brothers and sisters fighting each other over some crazy Elves and a weak Emperor.

 

There's quite a bit of truth to all that, but to me it always did come down to a " Can the Empire do it? " vs " Can an Independent Skyrim do it " as far as getting rid of the Thalmor. Either way it rides almost solely on Skyrim whether as an Imperial Province or as an Indpendent nation. For myself I think an Empire that can't stand on it's own two feet isn't worth swearing an oath to an Empire that depends on others to do the fighting for them. You'll notice throughout the campaign the Nords are mostly fighting themselves, and either way they will end up united fighting the Thalmor. The question really rides on who's banner the war will be fought under. Considering the Imperial record of late, and your own statement about being " used " I agree. However I tend to put the good of the many against the good of the few. If you don't fight for an independent Skyrim, then Skyrim itself will be used by the Empire. If you succeed in an independent Skyrim then at least it has a chance to sort out it's own destiny.

 

As far as swearing allegiance to Ulfric goes, really it's just sort of standard practice. You're essentially becoming a housecarl of sorts. Ulfric himself is temporary, and for all his faults, would still die for Skyrim ( as is shown if you fight your way through the Imperial Campaign, he dies with honor, and you'll notice even at the end Tullius hasn't bothered to learn enough Nord culture to remember Nord tradition for the afterlife. Also when you travel to Sovengarde you'll meet Ulfric's spirit if he's dead. Even in death his primary concern is for Skyrim itself. ) Tullius on the other hand is very much concerned only with winning the war, and to do so he'll put the boot on the back of Skyrim's neck again ( as witnessed at his death if you play as a Stormcloak ) his only intention isn't the good of the people, but what the people provide the empire. He's simply there to beat Skyrim back into submission so that it'll continue doing what the Empire needs, namely serving it meekly.

 

The question really comes down to whether or not that Skyrim needs the Empire. It doesn't at the end, that's shown clearly when you play through both campaigns. Only the Stormcloak one shows the Thalmor being driven out of Skyrim ( to one degree or another, it's shown most prominently if you take the middle path and attend the peace treaty scene in which you get bonus to Stormcloak faction just for making the Thalmor delegate leave the room ). The Empire on the other hand needs Skyrim, and badly. A bloody nasty war was fought with the Thalmor, one which the Empire more or less lost, and would have lost worst ( as I've pointed out ) without Nordic and Redguard Legions. Yet the Empire is willing to fight another nasty bloody war in Skyrim, against what it claims are it's own people, and this time it's a war of aggression.

 

Skyrim didn't demand anything really out of the Empire, no massive insult the way the Thalmor did, albeit from an Imperial point of view they need Skyrim so couldn't just let them secede, but no attempt was ever made for a diplomatic solution, yet one was offered to the Thalmor despite monstrous atrocities. The " Emperor had no choice " excuse is so much BS. There is always a choice, fight it out to the bitter end if need be. If TMII had bothered to even consider this option there would be no problems in Skyrim, but he cared more about his own personal power than he did about his own subjects, especially in Skyrim and Hammerfell. If he had bothered to summon the courage to say " No, we will never surrender " in a Churchillian fashion

 

" Even though large tracts of Europe and many old and famous States have fallen or may fall into the grip of the Gestapo and all the odious apparatus of Nazi rule, we shall not flag or fail. We shall go on to the end. We shall fight in France, we shall fight on the seas and oceans, we shall fight with growing confidence and growing strength in the air, we shall defend our island, whatever the cost may be. We shall fight on the beaches, we shall fight on the landing grounds, we shall fight in the fields and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills; we shall never surrender, and if, which I do not for a moment believe, this island or a large part of it were subjugated and starving, then our Empire beyond the seas, armed and guarded by the British Fleet, would carry on the struggle, until, in God's good time, the New World, with all its power and might, steps forth to the rescue and the liberation of the old. "

 

The Thalmor are easily as evil as the Nazi's and Britain easily as weakened as the Empire, but the Empire could have fought on. " We shall never surrender " should have been the rallying cry, and yet despite the so called " enormous losses " that were suffered in the Great War, he's decided to send an entire legion to quell the Rebellion in Skyrim. This would be the equivalent of England instead of " We shall Never Surrender " looking at Hitler and going " All right, let's truce, and btw we'll give up all our Imperial Possessions, oh and we'll forbid the speaking of Scottish or Irish Gallic, the Wearing of Kilts, any name that marks a particular clan in Scotland or Ireland, the playing of bagpipes, the Highland Games, and the Scottish Presbyterian Church and forbid Catholicism in Ireland. " and then expect Scotland and Ireland not to rebel. On top of that then send the British Army to Occupy Scotland and Ireland, and send the SS to make sure anyone who practiced Catholicism or Scottish Presbyterianism was hauled away to a work camp never to be seen again by their family or friends.

 

If you think all of the above makes any sense at all, then by all means go with the Imperials. I mean Churchill represented the height of British Imperial Standards which at that time had long past, but if a Government in the UK that he did not head had done that, the British Empire would have fallen apart quickly, despite having good men amongst the English populace. What's dead is dead, and Britain was as easily in as bad a spot as the Empire ( maybe worse ) at the time Churchill gave that speech. They had just evacuated Dunkirk, leaving behind most of their tanks and artillary, the Luftwaffe was bombing them daily. By all measurable reason Hitler was on the verge of invading the Island proper ( the fact he didn't isn't because he was unable, he just decided not to. Historians consider this one of his greatest historical blunders, right up there with the Invasion of Greece and the Declaration of war on the United States after Pearl Harbor. For those who didn't know Germany declared war on us after we declared war on Japan. They didn't have to, were under no treaty obligation too ( their treaty with Japan was mutual defense, the Japanese were the aggressors, Germany could have said " You started it, we've got our own problems, ever heard of Russia? We're smack dab in the middle of invading the largest country in the world ", but they did anyway )

 

At that point the Scottish would have embraced a man who wore people's faces as a hat if that person could defeat the British Army and throw the SS out of Scotland, and Ulfric isn't nearly that. So I say again, Stormcloaks,

 

All TMII had to say was " We will never give you anything, we will never surrender, and we'll -never- bargain with you " and there would be no Stormcloak Rebellion

 

and don't date the ugly chick with the crown.

 

EDIT: Wow.. I just compared joining the Imperials as siding with Hitler... and the more I think about it. I'm right. Damn my Military History Degree.

Edited November 18, 2012 by Gabryal

[StormHammer81]

Well, I think the Thalmor are the Nazis here, not the Imperials. The Imperials remind me of US and/or Europe just before WWII. When they allowed Hitler to start annexing countries like Poland but only to a point before war broke out. While Stormcloak are political enemies of the Empire, it's the Thalmor setting up death-camps, among other things. Which is why it's time for the Empire to get's it's house in order before things get any worse. Furthermore, the Stormcloaks could also turn into a fascist Skyrim because they're extremely nationalistic and have a hatred for "lesser races" such as the Elves and probably if they win, the Imperials. Not saying they would necessarily but it's possible. Empire just wants to restore the peace and get ready for the upcoming nightmare. Tullius says this himself at the end of the campaign.

 

When Ulfric killed the High king, this was a declaration of war against the Empire, which led to Marshall law and a military governor. The Stormcloaks brought this on themselves and Skyrim. There are other ways, other methods Ulfric could have utilized other than to just start killing people. Of course, I suppose the WGC was a declaration of war against Skyrim and the Stormcloaks. Titus Mede II has screwed up utterly. What a mess.

Edited November 18, 2012 by bigmagy1981

[Gabryal]

Well, I think the Thalmor are the Nazis here, not the Imperials. The Imperials remind me of US and/or Europe just before WWII. When they allowed Hitler to start annexing countries like Poland but only to a point before war broke out. While Stormcloak are political enemies of the Empire, it's the Thalmor setting up death-camps, among other things. Which is why it's time for the Empire to get's it's house in order before things get any worse. Furthermore, the Stormcloaks could also turn into a fascist Skyrim because they're extremely nationalistic and have a hatred for "lesser races" such as the Elves and probably if they win, the Imperials. Not saying they would necessarily but it's possible. Empire just wants to restore the peace and get ready for the upcoming nightmare. Tullius says this himself at the end of the campaign.

 

When Ulfric killed the High king, this was a declaration of war against the Empire, which led to Marshall law and a military governor. The Stormcloaks brought this on themselves and Skyrim. There are other ways, other methods Ulfric could have utilized other than to just start killing people. Of course, I suppose the WGC was a declaration of war against Skyrim and the Stormcloaks. Titus Mede II has screwed up utterly. What a mess.

 

I didn't mean that the Imperials were the Nazi's I ment the Thalmor were, the Imperials were like a ficticious British Empire that gave in to the Nazi's and allowed them to let the SS collect people in their Empire. The " restore peace " method is very similar to the one Chamberlain ( the Prime Minster before ) did to the rest of Europe. As far as hatred of Lesser Races, take a good look at the UK at that time ( hell look at them now, as nice as a people as the British are there still is an inherent racism to their behavior and attitude that even an American such as myself noticed. When I was thre just prior to the invasion of Afghanistan a good many British had almost a " pity " on me because not only was I American, but Irish to boot ).

 

While it's possible that Skyrim could turn fascist, I find it to be much less likely for a number of reasons, at least if they come out on top. For starters a Fascist country demands a lot of conformity, the power in Skyrim is pretty spread out. Any one of the Jarls could lead a rebellion against any leader at any time, and as the Empire has found out, it can get pretty crazy pretty fast. Second rascist or not, Skyrim has been the home of the Nords a very long time, even to this day in modern countries Minorities of nations that make up the majority of an area develop a dislike, distrust, or hatred towards people of other races. Again this is from experience, it took me a -very- long time to be accepted by my neighbors when I lived in a SW Atlanta neighborhood that was majority black when I was a kid. This isn't racism so much as it is voluntary segregation based on past grievances by the same racial group that lead to distrust.

 

I will say that the minorities of Skyrim provide a convenient and closed minded outlet for a people under oppression, but the attitude is far from fascist. Ulfric, no matter how much you help him, can simply never rule without consent. The Nords are too independent a people to allow that to happen.

 

Neither are the Imperials though, they are as I ment before, like the British Empire in WWII. The difference between the two is that the British had given in to, and bargained with, Nazi Germany instead of fighting them, then it would have been wrong. The Empire has bargained with, and given in to the Thalmor, down to the point of restricting religion ( my analogy was what if the British Empire had outlawed Scottish Presbyterianism ) and allowed their subjects to be stolen from their homes with little if any evidence ( my analogy was the SS in Scotland doing the same ) and then when a Scottish leader killed the head of Scotland because of a perceived collaboration with the UK that had allowed the above to happen, regardless if it was true or not ( plenty of people in Occupied France were killed by the French Resistance with little evidence ) the UK sent it's Army to pacify Scotland.

 

Would anyone expect Scotland not to rebel at that point? I don't think they would, I don't think the argument could effectively be made that Scotland would be wrong to rebel, and I think most people would be encouraged if they did, and honestly the Scot's would follow -anyone- who could defeat the British Army and throw the SS out of Scotland, even if as I said slightly graphically, he wore people's faces as a hat, and relative to a guy who cuts off people's faces and wears them as a hat, Ulfric isn't that bad.

 

So my analogy works like this. The Nazi's ( Thalmor ) Invade the Empire, the UK Fight and suffer a serious defeat ( Battle of Dunkirk ) leaving their military largely exhausted and without much in the ways of the necessities to fight a protracted war, even on their own soil, and then proceed to the bargain with the Nazi's ( fictitious Britain ) instead of fighting them ( Real Britian ) and in that bargaining they agree to outlaw Scottish Presbyterianism and allow the SS to arrest anyone in Scotland who practices it ( fictitious Britain ) and then invade Scotland when Scotland rebels ( fictitious Britain ).

 

So Scotland shouldn't rebel and attempt to break away from the UK under those circumstances? They shouldn't pick anyone they can find to lead the secession? I'm still having problems with anyone being able to argue ( my degree is in Military History and I'm supposed to be unbiased but even I can't think of one good sound moral reason that Scotland in this fictitious scenario shouldn't rebel ) that Scotland shouldn't rebel.

 

The Imperials aren't as bad as the Thalmor, not by a long shot, however they lost the right to rule the second they went to the bargaining table with them, just as any Government in Britain would have lost the right to rule the second they had gone to the bargaining table with the Nazi's during the war, when it looked like they might lose ( hell they -did- lose the right to rule just by having bargained with the Nazi's -before- Britain was at war with them, when Neville Champerlain was Prime Minister ). Applying this analogy of history I'd take a possibly fascist like Skyrim over a certainly Thalmor collaborating Empire any day of the week. I'll take racism over genocide too. I mean I hate the KKK for example, I was a poor, Irish, Appalachian Catholic a good portion of my life, and none of those things made the clan my friend ( Appalachian is a mixture to some greater or less to degree of primarily Scot's or Irish with the Native Cherokee people's of the NW Counties of the state of Georgia and Southern Tenessee ), but while they murdered a few people who were black ( or jewish ) over the years I grew up in, I don't recall them showing up in buses to take them away at gun point ( say the way the US Government does it now... oops got political ). There are plenty of people, regardless of what they think about black people, in Georgia who would never have stood for that.

 

Just like there are plenty of Nords in Skyrim who might hate Dunmer for example, but would balk at putting long lines of them on the way to the chopping block, something btw the Empire -is- willing to do, as you witness at the beginning of the story. I've not yet figured out why that isn't taken more seriously by some people. Sure it was all a mistake, and at the end you are told as much with kinda a halfway apology for in the whole " well it was a easy mistake to make you know, I mean come on we're fighting a rebellion here, better to chop off heads now than risk that they are innocent ". I mean as the player you don't have to take that personally, and perhaps shouldn't. Hadvar is a good guy and means well and is truly sorry that you have to go to the block and all that, but it never occurs to him, or to a lot people both in and outside the game, that the very fact that it could happen -at all- is reflection of general Imperial attitudes. They sent you to the block without seeing it as anything more than a necessary evil, and then expected you to understand that " Yea it was your life we nearly took, but you know, it was a nasty circumstance and a necessary evil ". I for one am not in favor of evil, necessary or not. Especially when it defies all generally accepted steps and procedures to make sure that justice is done. It's the lack of a process of justice of the thing, not the fact it was done to my character personally.

 

So to sum up, the Imperials as an analogy, are a Britain that Collaborated with the Nazi's and allowed the SS to take Scottish Citizen into custody to be shipped off without warning for practicing Scottish Presbyterianism and then when the Scots rebel, the British Army invades Scotland.

 

Hell killing Ulfric is somewhat similar to the way the killed William Wallace in Braveheart ( the movie ) and consider that the real William Wallace was even a tougher, crueler son-of-a-*censored* than the one in the movie ( he used to make his belts out of the woven skins of the men he killed, no lie, look it up ).

 

If history looked like that today, I won't say we'd be speaking German here, but the majority of Europe would be, and we in the US be pretty isolated.

 

I am trying to see flaws in my historical analogies, the famous " what if " game that historians play, and I'm running out of places to poke holes in it. I was for the Stormcloaks for in game lore before I wrote all this down, now I'm for them because I'm truly horrified by what I've put into thought here by reason of Analogy.

 

If you put the correlating facts of the Skyrim uprising, into a factual real life based context ( the whole Britian making a deal with the Nazi's in order to end the war, by oppressing the religious freedom of Scotland allowing the SS to take Scottish citizens away on flimsy evidence just to maintain the piece ) you end up with an Empire that is beyond any redeeming quality in my mind. It offends everything I hold dear, and I didn't even know it. I think I'm a Stormcloak for life now...

 

Give us Freedom or Give us Sovngarde indeed...

 

So yea.. I want to hear the pro bargaining with Nazi's and allowing their death squads to take away your citizens for practicing their native religion. I'd love to hear it done well, I was head of my debate team in high school and I would have quit the team rather than try to defend that one, not even on moral grounds, I'd do it for the same reason I wouldn't jump off a building trying to fly. The odds of succeeding seem very low.

 

Oh yea, don't date the ugly chick with the crown, and remember remember the 5th of November...

Edited November 18, 2012 by Gabryal

[StormHammer81]

Oh, I see. Man, I have to go back to work tomorrow. At least it's close to Thanksgiving and most of the idiots will be "out of office" Amen to that. Edited November 22, 2012 by bigmagy1981