Gabryal Posted November 18, 2012 Share Posted November 18, 2012 Oh, I see. Man, I have to go back to work tomorrow. At least it's close to Thanksgiving and most of the idiots will be "out of office" Amen to that. Agreed there, even though my Cherokee grandmother kinda screwed me up on Thanksgiving " We're celebrating what again? " she's say a lot. For me it's the day my mother-in-law cooks and I get to eat for free, that's good enough for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StormHammer81 Posted November 18, 2012 Share Posted November 18, 2012 LMAO. I saw what you did there. Just got it. Funny in a not-so funny way. Sorry man. Hey, I'm a German-Nord myself and my family didn't get here until just before WWII. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imperistan Posted November 22, 2012 Share Posted November 22, 2012 I just sort of realized a kind of mini symbolism in the game. Look at the difference between Ulfric and Tullius. Tullius is an old man who looks far and away from his prime. Ulfric, a young man still in his prime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deleted4626711User Posted November 23, 2012 Share Posted November 23, 2012 So I was playing today and noticed something at Helgen, probably not important but it's like, there's two Imperial flags. That Evil Imperial chick is standing over by one and Hadvar is over by the other. Now, in a way that seems pretty symbolic to me. So, on one side you have the Evil, Corrupt, Decadent, Titus Mede II express Empire. Then on the right, there's the Legitimate, Understanding, Wise Hadvar Olde School Empire. Empire has two faces. And then you're standing in the middle trying to decide. If you go to the left, then you follow Ulfric and seek to kill the Empire represented by the Evil Imp Officer Lady. Go right and you're trying to make things right by fixing the problem as Hadvar is NOT down with some of the things the Empire has been doing. Once TMII resigns, you do not have to swear loyalty to him or to "his" Empire, it's just to the Empire when taking the Imperial oath. I usually wait until late in the game to join the Imperials. The Empire is not all bad and the Stormcloaks are not all good. They both have good and bad. Last game I went Stormcloak and I quit playing after the Thalmor embassy quest because killing the Empire is helping the Thalmor and there are many good people still left in the Empire. And I don't like being used. It's all about whose in charge and when I did the quest to have an audience with the Emperor, the impression I got from the G-Man was that there are many people both on the Imperial Council and throughout the Imperial ranks who do not like TMII and want him gone for the good of Tamriel. They just can't do anything while he's in charge and Skyrim can't do anything until North Watch Keep is cleared. From both of these things, it seems pretty obvious to me change is on the way. Upon taking the new Imperial oath, just to the Empire, I really felt good about it. Felt much better than swearing uhhh "Eternal Loyalty to Ulfric". *Chuckles* If Talos wants the Empire dead, so be it however, I will not be the reason why. :) And, I think Talos wouldn't approve of the WGC or TMII however, he also wouldn't approve of brothers and sisters fighting each other over some crazy Elves and a weak Emperor. There's quite a bit of truth to all that, but to me it always did come down to a " Can the Empire do it? " vs " Can an Independent Skyrim do it " as far as getting rid of the Thalmor. Either way it rides almost solely on Skyrim whether as an Imperial Province or as an Indpendent nation. For myself I think an Empire that can't stand on it's own two feet isn't worth swearing an oath to an Empire that depends on others to do the fighting for them. You'll notice throughout the campaign the Nords are mostly fighting themselves, and either way they will end up united fighting the Thalmor. The question really rides on who's banner the war will be fought under. Considering the Imperial record of late, and your own statement about being " used " I agree. However I tend to put the good of the many against the good of the few. If you don't fight for an independent Skyrim, then Skyrim itself will be used by the Empire. If you succeed in an independent Skyrim then at least it has a chance to sort out it's own destiny. As far as swearing allegiance to Ulfric goes, really it's just sort of standard practice. You're essentially becoming a housecarl of sorts. Ulfric himself is temporary, and for all his faults, would still die for Skyrim ( as is shown if you fight your way through the Imperial Campaign, he dies with honor, and you'll notice even at the end Tullius hasn't bothered to learn enough Nord culture to remember Nord tradition for the afterlife. Also when you travel to Sovengarde you'll meet Ulfric's spirit if he's dead. Even in death his primary concern is for Skyrim itself. ) Tullius on the other hand is very much concerned only with winning the war, and to do so he'll put the boot on the back of Skyrim's neck again ( as witnessed at his death if you play as a Stormcloak ) his only intention isn't the good of the people, but what the people provide the empire. He's simply there to beat Skyrim back into submission so that it'll continue doing what the Empire needs, namely serving it meekly. The question really comes down to whether or not that Skyrim needs the Empire. It doesn't at the end, that's shown clearly when you play through both campaigns. Only the Stormcloak one shows the Thalmor being driven out of Skyrim ( to one degree or another, it's shown most prominently if you take the middle path and attend the peace treaty scene in which you get bonus to Stormcloak faction just for making the Thalmor delegate leave the room ). The Empire on the other hand needs Skyrim, and badly. A bloody nasty war was fought with the Thalmor, one which the Empire more or less lost, and would have lost worst ( as I've pointed out ) without Nordic and Redguard Legions. Yet the Empire is willing to fight another nasty bloody war in Skyrim, against what it claims are it's own people, and this time it's a war of aggression. Skyrim didn't demand anything really out of the Empire, no massive insult the way the Thalmor did, albeit from an Imperial point of view they need Skyrim so couldn't just let them secede, but no attempt was ever made for a diplomatic solution, yet one was offered to the Thalmor despite monstrous atrocities. The " Emperor had no choice " excuse is so much BS. There is always a choice, fight it out to the bitter end if need be. If TMII had bothered to even consider this option there would be no problems in Skyrim, but he cared more about his own personal power than he did about his own subjects, especially in Skyrim and Hammerfell. If he had bothered to summon the courage to say " No, we will never surrender " in a Churchillian fashion " Even though large tracts of Europe and many old and famous States have fallen or may fall into the grip of the Gestapo and all the odious apparatus of Nazi rule, we shall not flag or fail. We shall go on to the end. We shall fight in France, we shall fight on the seas and oceans, we shall fight with growing confidence and growing strength in the air, we shall defend our island, whatever the cost may be. We shall fight on the beaches, we shall fight on the landing grounds, we shall fight in the fields and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills; we shall never surrender, and if, which I do not for a moment believe, this island or a large part of it were subjugated and starving, then our Empire beyond the seas, armed and guarded by the British Fleet, would carry on the struggle, until, in God's good time, the New World, with all its power and might, steps forth to the rescue and the liberation of the old. " The Thalmor are easily as evil as the Nazi's and Britain easily as weakened as the Empire, but the Empire could have fought on. " We shall never surrender " should have been the rallying cry, and yet despite the so called " enormous losses " that were suffered in the Great War, he's decided to send an entire legion to quell the Rebellion in Skyrim. This would be the equivalent of England instead of " We shall Never Surrender " looking at Hitler and going " All right, let's truce, and btw we'll give up all our Imperial Possessions, oh and we'll forbid the speaking of Scottish or Irish Gallic, the Wearing of Kilts, any name that marks a particular clan in Scotland or Ireland, the playing of bagpipes, the Highland Games, and the Scottish Presbyterian Church and forbid Catholicism in Ireland. " and then expect Scotland and Ireland not to rebel. On top of that then send the British Army to Occupy Scotland and Ireland, and send the SS to make sure anyone who practiced Catholicism or Scottish Presbyterianism was hauled away to a work camp never to be seen again by their family or friends. If you think all of the above makes any sense at all, then by all means go with the Imperials. I mean Churchill represented the height of British Imperial Standards which at that time had long past, but if a Government in the UK that he did not head had done that, the British Empire would have fallen apart quickly, despite having good men amongst the English populace. What's dead is dead, and Britain was as easily in as bad a spot as the Empire ( maybe worse ) at the time Churchill gave that speech. They had just evacuated Dunkirk, leaving behind most of their tanks and artillary, the Luftwaffe was bombing them daily. By all measurable reason Hitler was on the verge of invading the Island proper ( the fact he didn't isn't because he was unable, he just decided not to. Historians consider this one of his greatest historical blunders, right up there with the Invasion of Greece and the Declaration of war on the United States after Pearl Harbor. For those who didn't know Germany declared war on us after we declared war on Japan. They didn't have to, were under no treaty obligation too ( their treaty with Japan was mutual defense, the Japanese were the aggressors, Germany could have said " You started it, we've got our own problems, ever heard of Russia? We're smack dab in the middle of invading the largest country in the world ", but they did anyway ) At that point the Scottish would have embraced a man who wore people's faces as a hat if that person could defeat the British Army and throw the SS out of Scotland, and Ulfric isn't nearly that. So I say again, Stormcloaks, All TMII had to say was " We will never give you anything, we will never surrender, and we'll -never- bargain with you " and there would be no Stormcloak Rebellion and don't date the ugly chick with the crown. EDIT: Wow.. I just compared joining the Imperials as siding with Hitler... and the more I think about it. I'm right. Damn my Military History Degree. That's what an Empire is. They aren't making others do their fighting, these "others" are a part of the Empire. Troops from Skyrim are still Imperial troops. An Empire draws resources and troops from its provinces, otherwise there would be no point in having them. That's part of what made Rome so successful in its early years. They had a very large number of soldiers in their legions because they got troops from all their captured provinces. I doubt the Stormcloaks could beat their Thalmor. Look at them now. At a stalemate with one of twenty Imperial Legions. Just one Legion. Between 4000 and 6000 men if actual historical numbers are any indication. I don't see why Tullius not being there for the people of Skyrim matters. He is a General not a King or Emperor, he was sent in to crush the rebellion and that is what he intends to do. The fact that Tullius had Ulfric captured and at the chopping block shows me that he is a very capable leader as well as how weak the Stormcloak's are. If it wasn't for Alduin Ulfric would be a head on a pike. Fighting to the end is not always the best choice. Your analogy does not work either. The Nazi's were horrible yes, but they were still human, and the horrors they could carry out were limited by the fact that this is real life. The world of Elder Scrolls is one filled with magic. Now consider the Thalmor's Ultimate goal. To wipe humanity from existence and restore immortality and divinity to the Elven race. Not just humanity itself but the very idea of humanity. There is much more at stake here. This needs to be handled very carefully. You can't throw it away because you want victory or death. If the Legions were wiped out, and Cyrodill fell, it would have been game over for man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gabryal Posted November 23, 2012 Share Posted November 23, 2012 That's what an Empire is. They aren't making others do their fighting, these "others" are a part of the Empire. Troops from Skyrim are still Imperial troops. An Empire draws resources and troops from its provinces, otherwise there would be no point in having them. That's part of what made Rome so successful in its early years. They had a very large number of soldiers in their legions because they got troops from all their captured provinces. I doubt the Stormcloaks could beat their Thalmor. Look at them now. At a stalemate with one of twenty Imperial Legions. Just one Legion. Between 4000 and 6000 men if actual historical numbers are any indication. I don't see why Tullius not being there for the people of Skyrim matters. He is a General not a King or Emperor, he was sent in to crush the rebellion and that is what he intends to do. The fact that Tullius had Ulfric captured and at the chopping block shows me that he is a very capable leader as well as how weak the Stormcloak's are. If it wasn't for Alduin Ulfric would be a head on a pike. Fighting to the end is not always the best choice. Your analogy does not work either. The Nazi's were horrible yes, but they were still human, and the horrors they could carry out were limited by the fact that this is real life. The world of Elder Scrolls is one filled with magic. Now consider the Thalmor's Ultimate goal. To wipe humanity from existence and restore immortality and divinity to the Elven race. Not just humanity itself but the very idea of humanity. There is much more at stake here. This needs to be handled very carefully. You can't throw it away because you want victory or death. If the Legions were wiped out, and Cyrodill fell, it would have been game over for man. I don't see how my analogy is flawed. Let's go through it step by step. 1) Britain was an Empire the same as " The Empire " and drew troops from many countries before the Empire disbanded. Including but not limited too the modern nations of India, Burma, and several African Nations. By your logic all of those nations should have remained part of the Empire instead of exerting their independence. 2) No the Thalmor are not the Nazi's but they are fighting to destroy what they consider an " inferior race " much as Hitler did with the Jews. He didn't consider them human, so he sought to iradicate them 3) In my Hypothetical case, if Britain had decided to outlaw the Scottish Presbyterian Church ( an analogy for Talos ) and allow the SS ( an analogy of the Thalmor in Skyrim ) the right to police Scotland and arrest without warrant or proof any Scot that practiced Scottish Presbyterianism as a trade for the Nazi's stopping the bombing of Britain during World War 2 then they would have behaved to a greater or lesser extent exactly like The Empire has done. By your logic, if applied to a modern setting, choice 3 would seem to be the desired choice. My point was that Churchill rejected any concession whatsoever and as I quoted devoted himself and his nation to " fight to the end ". This was his choice, and I see very little difference between The Empire of Cyrodil and the British Empire as far as basic makeup, traditions, customs, or values. The only difference was in Leadership, TMII decided to cave, Churchill decided not too. Now the question remains, was it the best choice for Churchill to decide not to cave, and by comparison for The Empire not to cave. I argue no, it is never right to give in to Tyranny of any form, you do not compromise with your enemies, as it only makes them grow stronger. It cost the Empire Hammerfell and caused an uprising in Skyrim as a result of his decision to cave. The correct choice would have been to continue the fight. To any end. Simply because it was the correct choice to make. As far as your assertion of 20 legions go, this is not the case, not anymore, and can be found in the wiki's floating around the net. In the days of Uriel Septim there were indeed 20 Legions, 8 from Skyrim, 6 from Hammerfell, and 6 from Cyrodill the rest made up of other parts of the Empire, as well as auxillaries made up of quasi-indepent parts of the Empire such as Valenwood and Morrowind. The total Strength of the Empire at that time could be counted at about 25 legions in total strength, 20 of which were armed in the Imperial Style, 2 Armies from Valenwood, and 3 Armies, one for each of the Major Houses, from Morrowind, that fought in the Mer style of fighting. Magic, Arrows, and One-handed swords. It's also hinted that Cavalry Auxillaries were available from many places in the Empire however it's not specific. At the time of the Great War that number had been reduced to 12, 4 from Cyrodill, 4 from Skyrim, 4 from Hammefell. Numbered from I to XII in that order. 1-4 being from Cyrodil, 4-8 from Skyrim 8-12 from Hammerfell. During the Great War the Cyrodil Legions were decimated, the 3rd Legion was completely wiped out at the Imperial City, and I mean a total loss. The 4th was pinned down at Anvil, and the 1st and 2nd Broke the ring with TMII. the 4th through 8th Legions marched south from Skyrim, leaving behind the Stormcloaks to defend Skyrim, the 8-12 left Hammerfell leaving the Crowns and their Al'kir warriors to defend Hammerfell and surrounded the Imperial City from the North, East, and West. TMII attacked the city with the 1st and 2nd Legions, took the walls and slaughtered the Thalmor Army. So that's where we find ourselves today. Now lets talk about losses. the 8th through 12th Legions no longer exist. When TMII threw Hammerfell to the wolves, those legions mutinied and returned home to fight another 5 years and successfully defeat the Thalmor, throwing them out of Hammerfell. The 5th - 8th Legions lost half their strength when half of all Nords deserted to follow Ulfric's standard ( this is listed too, the Stormcloaks aren't just a milita anymore, they've been reinforced by professional fighters, former members of the Skyrim Legions. So what does that leave the Empire. The 3rd Legion was utterly destroyed, and likely hasn't been reformed as anything like the fighting force it was, at best it's a totally green unit that has seen little if any combat. The 1st and 2nd between the breakthrough and the recapture of the Imperial City could be counted on to field perhaps 50% strength, if that. The 4th Legion is more or less in tact, but remains the only completely Cyrodillian Legion left to the Empire to defend the Imperial City. The 5th and 6th Skyrim Legions are likely a combination of those Nords who stayed loyal, and probably came from any of the 4 Skyrim Legions that remained, reforming the 4 Legions into 2. Of those the 5th is most likely staying in Cyrodil with the 4th to Reinforce defenses around the Imperial City. Leaving the 6th as the only Nord Legion left to the Empire that's in anyway intact. The Dunmer Houses are nearly Obliterated, don't expect help from there. Valenwood is in the Hands of the Thalmor, don't expect help from there. The Khajiit Kingdoms are in the Hands of the Thalmor. High Reach and Orisimmer are cut off by Land with Skyrim on One side and Hammerfell on the other, and the Thalmor already have bases there, as they were welcomed by the Half Elven Breton's that inhabit the area. High Rock is Imperial on a map only. Essentially if you combined the 1st and 2nd into an Entire Legion, you'd only have 4 Real Legions Left. The combined First and Second, the 4th, the 5th and the 6th. The fact that the 6th is in Skyrim is basically because that's the only unit that could be spared. Even if the 3rd had been reformed and the First and Second Remanned. You'd still only have a total of 6 Legions, 2 of which are half new recruits, one of which is Entirely new recruits. And the Thalmor ready to pounce. The 6th is there because simply, that's all that can be spared. All of this is recorded as canon. So you've got your facts wrong about the strength of the Empire, and I reinforce my analogy between TMII and Churchill, and their leadership styles. Britain was woefully understrength at the start of the Campaign, they had lost a tremendous amount of their strength at Dunkirk, they were outnumbered in the Air, in Tanks, in Artillary ( assume all those as magic. Air, Artillary and Tanks, they served essentially the same purpose ) and yet Churchill chose to fight, to the end if need be, rather than deal with Hitler. I don't see much difference between the Thalmor wishing to destroy humanity which they see as Inferior, and Hitler wishing to destroy the Jews that he felt were inferior. Both considered the latter in each case to be an inferior race. If Britain had followed your Logic, they would have put Ghandi's head on a stick ( Ghandi wasn't violent and Ulfric is but both were leaders of independence. I doubt severely that they would have made a distinction between violent and non-violent, considering they were willing to execute a complete stranger at the beginning of the game, The Empire I mean ). I stand by my analogy, and I stand by my reasoning, and I stand by my opinion that you are wrong. I also ask you this question, if Hammerfell by itself can defeat the Thalmor, why exactly can't Skyrim? Is there something about the Nords that is inferior to the Redguards that I'm missing? One thing is very certain though, the Empire cannot defeat them, and that isn't because they lack the men or the resources or anything else. It's simply because they lack the will. That was made obvious when he caved to the demands of the Thalmor in the White-Gold Concordant. It literally was the last chance the Empire had to fight it out to the end with the Thalmor, the canon says the Thalmor were just as weak as the Empire at the time of the signing ( or the Thalmor never would have signed it ) and so it was a coin flip on who would have come out on top. Now however the Thalmor grow stronger every day. While they failed in Hammerfell they've reinforced Valenwood, have bases in High Reach and Northern Skyrim, and the right to literally wander the Empire at will in the name of rooting out Talos worshippers ( and if they happen to be scouting the entire Empire in the process... well of course the can be trusted not to breath a word of that back to their Government *sarcasm* ). The Empire has grown weaker. They lost a third of their remaining Legions when Hammerfell seceded, and with the unrest in Skyrim they lost a quarter of what they had left. Even under the best of Circumstances, say the Empire Wins in Skyrim, that doesn't get the Legions it lost in Skyrim back. What has happened is that 2 Legions will be gone, no matter what, either disbanded in protest or joined Ulfric's cause and died fighting the Empire. The 6th Legion will be damaged if not decimated in the War, weakening it futher, and the immediate result will be what? The Nords won't be fielding men for the Empire any time soon. The war will have ravaged the land, crops will need to be regrown, homes rebuilt, wounds healed, and Anarchy turned to order ( which ties up the 6th even longer, if not permanently requiring it's stationing there in order to remain order ). Leaving 5 Legions only. The White-Gold Concordant reduced the number of Legions the Empire can field from 12 to 6, with a third of those being green troops, and one entire Legion stationed in Skyrim for the forseeable future. No, the decision TMII made not to fight it out was the wrong one, and has effectively killed the Empire. Just the sheer size of the border needed to guard against Valenwood alone would take up 2 if not 3 Legions, and even then a few local Cities would be left to fend for themselves. These Legions would have to face a Thalmor Army at least as large as the one that broke through the first time, and required recalling the Hammerfell and Skyrim Legions in order to save the Empire. There are no more reserves this time, and if the Thalmor want, they can take the Imperial City any time they want. Skyrim's rebellion had little to do with this, as losing a third of the Legions to Hammerfell was the real beginning of the downfall, losing another 2 to Skyrim didn't matter very much, as without Hammerfell the Empire already had too little strength to resist the Thalmor. However the Thalmor are only a true danger to Cyrodil, Hammerfell has shown it can resist the Thalmor Unassisted, Skyrim can do the same, and has a better chance at it than the Empire does, since any attempt at preserving what's left of the Empire would only benefit Cyrodil, not Skyrim. To block any Thalmor attack would leave Skyrim Defenseless regarding on Local guards to stop a Thalmor Strike from the High Reaches. Simply put, Skyrim's best interests are best served by Independence, the Empire's best interest is served in Skyrim staying part of the Empire, however that would be to the detriment of Skyrim. If the player truly wants to save Skyrim, they'll side with the Stormcloaks, if they wish to save the Empire, at Skyrim's detriment, they'll join the Empire. I've given all the reasons I can that the Empire isn't worth saving in my opinion, and I've backed them up with all the facts I've scoured from across Cannon wiki's. It's as simple as this, Skyrim will fall if the Empire wins, Skyrim -may- survive if the Stormcloaks win, and that saving depends heavily on whether they can duplicate what Hammerfell did, and I can't think of a reason they can't. It's a coin flip to be sure whether the Stormcloaks can save Skyrim from the Thalmor, but it's a guarantee that Skyrim itself will not be able to stand if the Empire wins. That to me is just a fact. The real question comes down to which is more important, Skyrim or Cyrodil ( let's not even call it the Empire anymore, the Empire -is- just Skyrim and Cyrodil, nothing else remains that is of consequence ) so basically the player chooses between a weak leader who bleeds his people dry, and makes deals with Genocidal maniacs in TMII, or they side with a ego-centric but patriotic, quasi-rascist, nord in Ulfric. It's the player's choice, but the larger picture leads to who deserves to exist. Skyrim or Cyrodil. I choose Skyrim based on the actions of TMII and my disgust with him. At least Ulfric has the guts to fight for his country, to the end if need be. That's the point, if it's worth fighting for it's worth fighting for to the end, and Ulfric represents that, not TMII, not Tullius, and Certainly not The Empire. Analogies all made and set straight, I see no problems with them. Reasons set straight, I feel that they are all valid and well reasoned, history set straight, I've cited where to find the information I've given. As far as I know I haven't missed anything. Stormcloaks are Skyrim's best chance, if you want Skyrim to survive pick them, if you care more about the survival of Cyrodil ( and with it the " Empire " which is just Cyrodil and Skyrim at this point, it's only an Empire if they hold onto Skyrim ) then side with the Imperials. That's just how the facts fall down, and the player can make their choice about who the better leader is, Ulfric or TMII, and which leader is most likely to protect the most people and drive the Thalmor from their lands. TMII has already let the people down once, and once is too many. It is my opinion, based on facts, that the Empire couldn't withstand a full Thalmor attack even if they win in Skyrim, but anything is possible I guess. It is also my opinion that the success that Hammerfell and the Redguards achieved against the Thalmor could be repeated in Skyrim, and I find it much more likely than any attempt the Empire could make at defeating them. I can think of no way in which Skyrim would be better off with the Empire, and I can think of plenty of ways that it couldn't. Bigger picture, for Skyrim, independence is the best option. That's the end decision the Dragon Born must make. To chance it with the Empire or to take what I think is the option more likely to succeed against the Thalmor and side with Skyrim Independence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StormHammer81 Posted November 23, 2012 Share Posted November 23, 2012 (edited) Hmmm You know, I'm looking all over the web and I'm not finding anything on the Thalmor in Highrock. Granted, there is some in game Dialogue which talks about them "fussing about themselves". Not seeing anything that says the Thalmor are in control of Highrock or that there is a heavy Thalmor presence there, or that Hammerfell is at war with them. I would like to read up on this though if there is a book out there which talks about it. Cause I've heard very little about what's going on in Highrock in the game itself. Things look dark for the Empire, I know, however much of this is due to Titus Mede II. Only chance for the Empire, is to get rid of him and start cleaning house. There are good people left in the Legion and none of them like the way things are going. Personally, for me in the end, I couldn't bring myself to complete Stormcloak quest and kill Legate Rikke or Tullius. Don't think that's right. Also don't think some of the things Ulfric did was justified and I also don't think he should be High King. Raloff even says in the beginning, "Oh he's the true High King" and so does Galmar. So, if this be the case then the Moot will just be for show and won't be able to make a fair choice for the next High King. They'll have to do what Ulfric tells them. Tullius seems very willing to let the Moot decide for themselves and does not force the Empire down the Jarl's throats. Jarl Ballgruff even sends Tullius a list of his demands before Empire is even allowed to garrison troops inside Whiterun, while at the same time allowing Talos worship and free sppech (dissention) against the Empire itself. I really don't see anything wrong with the Empire aside from TMII and HIS policies. Yes, I will give the Empire a chance, I think it's earned it. I guess it's just because I'm an Orc and Empire did save us from our neighbors, Empire didn't help directly because the Orcs started the fight :D by trying to take control of Southern Highrock. So, yeah. That's what I think. Ulfric's duel with Torygg was not legite according to the code of Malacath, which means it should only have been single-handed combat -- Nothing else. Ulfric shouted Torygg down to "Prove a Point". He came there to Prove a Point, that Torygg was unworthy of the Throne ~ Not to duel him in fair combat. He wanted to show that Torygg wasn't as kool as he was. Then he runs out the back door, leaves someone else to die for him who is holding a gate open "Ahead of Time". In the final decision I had to ask myself this... "Would Conan the Destroyer", leave anyone behind? Or more specifically, would he arrange someone beforehand to cover his a$$ so he can make an example out of somebody else under a banner of truce, then to take the fall so he can run away? 1st Question: Not unless he had absolutely no other choice. Conan would often put himself between danger and his crew.2nd Question: Conan lives free in the world and doesn't need to make examples out of other people. In the end he earned his Kingdom "Aquilonia" by HELPING people, which brought him FAME and GLORY. Not by stabbing them in the back. Ulfric may be a nice guy and all and he may be a good warrior but he's not High King material. There are several really mean spirited b*tches I've known who LOVE to make a point or an example out of someone, cause they're messed up in the head. If you want to prove yourself, you need to fight like a man. Mano e mano. Just like in Medieval times, Knight fought with swords not with sword and magic. No honor in that. Edited November 23, 2012 by bigmagy1981 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gabryal Posted November 23, 2012 Share Posted November 23, 2012 Hmmm You know, I'm looking all over the web and I'm not finding anything on the Thalmor in Highrock. Granted, there is some in game Dialogue which talks about them "fussing about themselves". Not seeing anything that says the Thalmor are in control of Highrock or that there is a heavy Thalmor presence there, or that Hammerfell is at war with them. I would like to read up on this though if there is a book out there which talks about it. Cause I've heard very little about what's going on in Highrock in the game itself. Things look dark for the Empire, I know, however much of this is due to Titus Mede II. Only chance for the Empire, is to get rid of him and start cleaning house. There are good people left in the Legion and none of them like the way things are going. Personally, for me in the end, I couldn't bring myself to complete Stormcloak quest and kill Legate Rikke or Tullius. Don't think that's right. Also don't think some of the things Ulfric did was justified and I also don't think he should be High King. Raloff even says in the beginning, "Oh he's the true High King" and so does Galmar. So, if this be the case then the Moot will just be for show and won't be able to make a fair choice for the next High King. They'll have to do what Ulfric tells them. Tullius seems very willing to let the Moot decide for themselves and does not force the Empire down the Jarl's throats. Jarl Ballgruff even sends Tullius a list of his demands before Empire is even allowed to garrison troops inside Whiterun, while at the same time allowing Talos worship and free sppech (dissention) against the Empire itself. I really don't see anything wrong with the Empire aside from TMII and HIS policies. Yes, I will give the Empire a chance, I think it's earned it. I guess it's just because I'm an Orc and Empire did save us from our neighbors, Empire didn't help directly because the Orcs started the fight :D by trying to take control of Southern Highrock. So, yeah. That's what I think. Ulfric's duel with Torygg was not legite according to the code of Malacath, which means it should only have been single-handed combat -- Nothing else. Ulfric shouted Torygg down to "Prove a Point". He came there to Prove a Point, that Torygg was unworthy of the Throne ~ Not to duel him in fair combat. He wanted to show that Torygg wasn't as kool as he was. Then he runs out the back door, leaves someone else to die for him who is holding a gate open "Ahead of Time". In the final decision I had to ask myself this... "Would Conan the Destroyer", leave anyone behind? Or more specifically, would he arrange someone beforehand to cover his a$$ so he can make an example out of somebody else under a banner of truce, then to take the fall so he can run away? 1st Question: Not unless he had absolutely no other choice. Conan would often put himself between danger and his crew.2nd Question: Conan lives free in the world and doesn't need to make examples out of other people. In the end he earned his Kingdom "Aquilonia" by HELPING people, which brought him FAME and GLORY. Not by stabbing them in the back. Ulfric may be a nice guy and all and he may be a good warrior but he's not High King material. There are several really mean spirited b*tches I've known who LOVE to make a point or an example out of someone, cause they're messed up in the head. If you want to prove yourself, you need to fight like a man. Mano e mano. Just like in Medieval times, Knight fought with swords not with sword and magic. No honor in that. Well, what you say is at least partially true, even in Solitude they admit that Torygg had zero chance, even from the beginning, he was too young and too inexperienced but when Ulfric called the challenge it was too late. Torygg had thought Ulfric was coming there to discuss secession, something which Torygg himself was seriously considering but Ulfric demands challenge first thing. Even sword to sword Ulfic most likely would have defeated Torygg as he was a seasoned warrior and Torygg was not ( but wanted to be ). It's quite likely that Ulfric's ambition is what caused him to do this, or a mistaken belief that Torygg would never rise against the empire. I personally think that this was Ulfric's greatest failing in seeking Skyrim's independence and his greatest weakness as a man. Torygg was a good man and a good high king, and likely would have been able to unify Skyrim against the Empire, thus accomplishing what I already have said needs to happen, Skyrim Independence. So I agree, Ulfric is not the best man to be High King. If I could choose anyone at all that could be High King -and- would toss the Empire out of Skyrim I would have chosen Balgruuf or Vignar Gray-mane. Both would have been better than Ulfric. The game doesn't let you make that choice though. You're only left with 2 choices. Ulfric or The Empire. I choose Ulfric simply because of the Thalmor. I still do not think that The Empire can win against the Thalmor, I simply don't. The Numbers aren't there, and unless they somehow bring Hammerfell back into the fold they aren't going to make it. Now if it were possible to bring Hammerfell back into the Empire, I'd simply follow the line that kills TMII -and- Ulfric, however that's simply not possible. There is no option that brings Hammerfell back ( which is a pity ). Without Hammerfell the numbers simply aren't there for The Empire to stand, there is too much ground to cover and too few soldiers to do it with. As far as Highrock goes, what you need to do is research the Forsworn, and the attempt at High Rock regaining Malkath and attempting to form an independent Kingdom. When the Empire let this fall ( again this is Ulfric's fault I don't deny it ) the Thalmor stepped in. High Rock, which was angered at the Empire's lack of ability to protect native Bretons in favor of letting the Nords do what they did, started secretly allowing the Thalmor to set up bases in High Rock and to supply the Forsworn. As far as Orismmer ( however you spell it ) goes, at the end of the day they'll side with whoever will keep them from being destroyed again. Honestly for the Orcs sake, if they could, they'd side with the Thalmor. The Elves however would just attempt to wipe them out without even considering an alliance, and we all know this, the Orcs are judged too quickly by everyone and the Thalmor are what they are, destroyers of anything without a " mer " in it's name. The Bretons are the exception because they have Elven Blood in their veins. I imagine the Thalmor look at them something like half-breeds that were unfortunate enough to be merged with the inferior blood of men. I'm not sure this makes the Bretons safe from the Thalmor, but the Thalmor even let the Khajiit in, so who knows. I know Ulfric is literally the lesser of two evils. I don't think he should have killed Torygg, and I think he did it because of his own ambitions. I think the idea that Torygg was an Imperial puppet are grossly exaggerated ( hell his own wife wants you to leave his ashes at a shrine of Talos, even she openly defiles the Thalmor ) and I still think all my analogies about what The Empire did are sound and well thought out. If you want to come down to personalities, I -can't- side with anyone who makes deals with the Thalmor, and I -can't- go along any course that leaves them with anything less than a full fledged war on their hands. You can kill TMII in the game, and honestly that makes me feel a good deal better about many things when I do ( which I've always done, no matter which side I've played on ) It's just not enough to guarantee a renewal of the war with the Thalmor, and even if the Empire did, I listed the numbers for you, they lack the ability too. Things were no where near as dire when the White-Gold Concordant was signed as it is now, I just don't see how the Empire stands a chance, no matter what happens, now that Hammerfell is gone. TMII just screwed up too bad and the Empire, as far as I can see is doomed because of it. I truly hate that fact, I really do. Personally if the Dragonborn could take the throne, make an alliance with Hammerfell to have them rejoin the Empire in exchange for a total war with guarantee of no treaty signed against the Thalmor, that would be my solution. If I could make Balgruuf High King and then take Rikke ( the second in command of the 6th Legion ) and make her Empress with the same offer made to Hammerfell, I'd do that too. It's frustrating to me that I can't do any of that, because honestly I don't like Ulfric, I don't think he'd be a good High King, but unless something happens that brings war to the Thalmor I'm simply unable to side with the Empire. The bigger picture for me always revolves around the Thalmor. Before really looking at it from a different view I always used to play a Dark Elf assassin, the Role Playing element in all of this was an easy one for me in that the Dunmer are scattered and any that were left would need employ somewhere, and who pays better than the Empire? So I'd go Empire, even though I'd end up killing TMII, for the simple reason that killing both TMII -and- Ulfric Stormcloak pretty much would make you the greatest assassin of the age. He was kinda uncaring about the who war in general, or the Empire in particular. Morrowind was gone, so for the Dunmer the story is pretty much over. I played once through as a Wood Elf along similar lines, playing for the Empire in the hopes that they would free Valenwood ( It's for damn sure that Ulfric won't ). I also played through as an Imperial, who I roleplayed as a former Imperial Legionairre that had been wounded during the march south and left on the border of Falkerth ( and unfortunately mistaken for a Renegade ). As I may have mentioned, before my current game I had -never- joined the Stormcloaks, simply because in every previous game the Hero had fought to preserve the Empire. TMII and the White-Gold Concordant changed all that, once I started researching it. Reading about the Mede House added even more too it. In the big picture I just can't picture an Empire that can withstand the Thalmor, and I can't support an Empire under the house of Mede ( I wonder if TMII has any heirs, if he didn't that might lean me more towards the Imperial side, probably not enough to matter, but it would make killing his ass a whole lot more satisfying ). In a perfect world, Torygg would still be King, Ulfric and Balgruuf ( I know they hate each other ) could advise him. ( the poor boy was still very young, and I do hate what Ulfric did to him. He was on the verge of declaring Skyrim independent himself ) and there would be no division in Skyrim. They do listen to their High King before any Emperor, and if the Emperor attempted to take Torygg down you'd have more than a full fledged rebellion in Skyrim, you'd have a war that would spill over into Cyrodill to crush the Empire for even an attempt ( if they were successful then the Imperials would wish the Thalmor had finished them off ) to capture or kill Torygg. However while some argue whether it was a fair fight because of the use of the voice, no one really argues that it would have been " fair " even with just Swords, almost everyone you meet who will talk about it realistically, acknowledges that Ulfric would have killed Torygg either way. As you said, using the voice was to make a point. It's a really crappy situation the player is put into, and I personally am not willing to put the fate of Skyrim into a " hope " that the Empire will do what it was supposed to do in the beginning, fight it out to the end with the Thalmor. It's not a question whether Ulfric will, he will, in fact if he hopes to stay in power he -must- fight it out to the end with them. If he doesn't then he loses all support, because the majority of his followers are fighting not just for him, but to remove the Thalmor from Skyrim if not from the world entirely. The Empire simply doesn't take this approach. I can't as a player support anything less than a war against the Thalmor, and I can't take the chance that the Empire will ever do what it should have done in the first place. The Thalmor are the crux of all this, not Uflric or The Empire. The Empire under TMII followed a horrible plan, without him will they change? It's impossible to know. Even if they did change without Hammerfell the odds are grim at best. I never said that Ulfric was the best choice, I just know he's a fighter, and that's what I want as a player, a fighter. I honestly wish I -knew- that with TMII dead the war between the Empire and the Thalmor would resume. I really do, if I did then I'd put Ulfric down like a dog. I don't know that so as a player I can't take the risk. It's as simple as that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deleted4626711User Posted November 23, 2012 Share Posted November 23, 2012 That's what an Empire is. They aren't making others do their fighting, these "others" are a part of the Empire. Troops from Skyrim are still Imperial troops. An Empire draws resources and troops from its provinces, otherwise there would be no point in having them. That's part of what made Rome so successful in its early years. They had a very large number of soldiers in their legions because they got troops from all their captured provinces. I doubt the Stormcloaks could beat their Thalmor. Look at them now. At a stalemate with one of twenty Imperial Legions. Just one Legion. Between 4000 and 6000 men if actual historical numbers are any indication. I don't see why Tullius not being there for the people of Skyrim matters. He is a General not a King or Emperor, he was sent in to crush the rebellion and that is what he intends to do. The fact that Tullius had Ulfric captured and at the chopping block shows me that he is a very capable leader as well as how weak the Stormcloak's are. If it wasn't for Alduin Ulfric would be a head on a pike. Fighting to the end is not always the best choice. Your analogy does not work either. The Nazi's were horrible yes, but they were still human, and the horrors they could carry out were limited by the fact that this is real life. The world of Elder Scrolls is one filled with magic. Now consider the Thalmor's Ultimate goal. To wipe humanity from existence and restore immortality and divinity to the Elven race. Not just humanity itself but the very idea of humanity. There is much more at stake here. This needs to be handled very carefully. You can't throw it away because you want victory or death. If the Legions were wiped out, and Cyrodill fell, it would have been game over for man. I don't see how my analogy is flawed. Let's go through it step by step. 1) Britain was an Empire the same as " The Empire " and drew troops from many countries before the Empire disbanded. Including but not limited too the modern nations of India, Burma, and several African Nations. By your logic all of those nations should have remained part of the Empire instead of exerting their independence. 2) No the Thalmor are not the Nazi's but they are fighting to destroy what they consider an " inferior race " much as Hitler did with the Jews. He didn't consider them human, so he sought to iradicate them 3) In my Hypothetical case, if Britain had decided to outlaw the Scottish Presbyterian Church ( an analogy for Talos ) and allow the SS ( an analogy of the Thalmor in Skyrim ) the right to police Scotland and arrest without warrant or proof any Scot that practiced Scottish Presbyterianism as a trade for the Nazi's stopping the bombing of Britain during World War 2 then they would have behaved to a greater or lesser extent exactly like The Empire has done. By your logic, if applied to a modern setting, choice 3 would seem to be the desired choice. My point was that Churchill rejected any concession whatsoever and as I quoted devoted himself and his nation to " fight to the end ". This was his choice, and I see very little difference between The Empire of Cyrodil and the British Empire as far as basic makeup, traditions, customs, or values. The only difference was in Leadership, TMII decided to cave, Churchill decided not too. Now the question remains, was it the best choice for Churchill to decide not to cave, and by comparison for The Empire not to cave. I argue no, it is never right to give in to Tyranny of any form, you do not compromise with your enemies, as it only makes them grow stronger. It cost the Empire Hammerfell and caused an uprising in Skyrim as a result of his decision to cave. The correct choice would have been to continue the fight. To any end. Simply because it was the correct choice to make. As far as your assertion of 20 legions go, this is not the case, not anymore, and can be found in the wiki's floating around the net. In the days of Uriel Septim there were indeed 20 Legions, 8 from Skyrim, 6 from Hammerfell, and 6 from Cyrodill the rest made up of other parts of the Empire, as well as auxillaries made up of quasi-indepent parts of the Empire such as Valenwood and Morrowind. The total Strength of the Empire at that time could be counted at about 25 legions in total strength, 20 of which were armed in the Imperial Style, 2 Armies from Valenwood, and 3 Armies, one for each of the Major Houses, from Morrowind, that fought in the Mer style of fighting. Magic, Arrows, and One-handed swords. It's also hinted that Cavalry Auxillaries were available from many places in the Empire however it's not specific. At the time of the Great War that number had been reduced to 12, 4 from Cyrodill, 4 from Skyrim, 4 from Hammefell. Numbered from I to XII in that order. 1-4 being from Cyrodil, 4-8 from Skyrim 8-12 from Hammerfell. During the Great War the Cyrodil Legions were decimated, the 3rd Legion was completely wiped out at the Imperial City, and I mean a total loss. The 4th was pinned down at Anvil, and the 1st and 2nd Broke the ring with TMII. the 4th through 8th Legions marched south from Skyrim, leaving behind the Stormcloaks to defend Skyrim, the 8-12 left Hammerfell leaving the Crowns and their Al'kir warriors to defend Hammerfell and surrounded the Imperial City from the North, East, and West. TMII attacked the city with the 1st and 2nd Legions, took the walls and slaughtered the Thalmor Army. So that's where we find ourselves today. Now lets talk about losses. the 8th through 12th Legions no longer exist. When TMII threw Hammerfell to the wolves, those legions mutinied and returned home to fight another 5 years and successfully defeat the Thalmor, throwing them out of Hammerfell. The 5th - 8th Legions lost half their strength when half of all Nords deserted to follow Ulfric's standard ( this is listed too, the Stormcloaks aren't just a milita anymore, they've been reinforced by professional fighters, former members of the Skyrim Legions. So what does that leave the Empire. The 3rd Legion was utterly destroyed, and likely hasn't been reformed as anything like the fighting force it was, at best it's a totally green unit that has seen little if any combat. The 1st and 2nd between the breakthrough and the recapture of the Imperial City could be counted on to field perhaps 50% strength, if that. The 4th Legion is more or less in tact, but remains the only completely Cyrodillian Legion left to the Empire to defend the Imperial City. The 5th and 6th Skyrim Legions are likely a combination of those Nords who stayed loyal, and probably came from any of the 4 Skyrim Legions that remained, reforming the 4 Legions into 2. Of those the 5th is most likely staying in Cyrodil with the 4th to Reinforce defenses around the Imperial City. Leaving the 6th as the only Nord Legion left to the Empire that's in anyway intact. The Dunmer Houses are nearly Obliterated, don't expect help from there. Valenwood is in the Hands of the Thalmor, don't expect help from there. The Khajiit Kingdoms are in the Hands of the Thalmor. High Reach and Orisimmer are cut off by Land with Skyrim on One side and Hammerfell on the other, and the Thalmor already have bases there, as they were welcomed by the Half Elven Breton's that inhabit the area. High Rock is Imperial on a map only. Essentially if you combined the 1st and 2nd into an Entire Legion, you'd only have 4 Real Legions Left. The combined First and Second, the 4th, the 5th and the 6th. The fact that the 6th is in Skyrim is basically because that's the only unit that could be spared. Even if the 3rd had been reformed and the First and Second Remanned. You'd still only have a total of 6 Legions, 2 of which are half new recruits, one of which is Entirely new recruits. And the Thalmor ready to pounce. The 6th is there because simply, that's all that can be spared. All of this is recorded as canon. So you've got your facts wrong about the strength of the Empire, and I reinforce my analogy between TMII and Churchill, and their leadership styles. Britain was woefully understrength at the start of the Campaign, they had lost a tremendous amount of their strength at Dunkirk, they were outnumbered in the Air, in Tanks, in Artillary ( assume all those as magic. Air, Artillary and Tanks, they served essentially the same purpose ) and yet Churchill chose to fight, to the end if need be, rather than deal with Hitler. I don't see much difference between the Thalmor wishing to destroy humanity which they see as Inferior, and Hitler wishing to destroy the Jews that he felt were inferior. Both considered the latter in each case to be an inferior race. If Britain had followed your Logic, they would have put Ghandi's head on a stick ( Ghandi wasn't violent and Ulfric is but both were leaders of independence. I doubt severely that they would have made a distinction between violent and non-violent, considering they were willing to execute a complete stranger at the beginning of the game, The Empire I mean ). I stand by my analogy, and I stand by my reasoning, and I stand by my opinion that you are wrong. I also ask you this question, if Hammerfell by itself can defeat the Thalmor, why exactly can't Skyrim? Is there something about the Nords that is inferior to the Redguards that I'm missing? One thing is very certain though, the Empire cannot defeat them, and that isn't because they lack the men or the resources or anything else. It's simply because they lack the will. That was made obvious when he caved to the demands of the Thalmor in the White-Gold Concordant. It literally was the last chance the Empire had to fight it out to the end with the Thalmor, the canon says the Thalmor were just as weak as the Empire at the time of the signing ( or the Thalmor never would have signed it ) and so it was a coin flip on who would have come out on top. Now however the Thalmor grow stronger every day. While they failed in Hammerfell they've reinforced Valenwood, have bases in High Reach and Northern Skyrim, and the right to literally wander the Empire at will in the name of rooting out Talos worshippers ( and if they happen to be scouting the entire Empire in the process... well of course the can be trusted not to breath a word of that back to their Government *sarcasm* ). The Empire has grown weaker. They lost a third of their remaining Legions when Hammerfell seceded, and with the unrest in Skyrim they lost a quarter of what they had left. Even under the best of Circumstances, say the Empire Wins in Skyrim, that doesn't get the Legions it lost in Skyrim back. What has happened is that 2 Legions will be gone, no matter what, either disbanded in protest or joined Ulfric's cause and died fighting the Empire. The 6th Legion will be damaged if not decimated in the War, weakening it futher, and the immediate result will be what? The Nords won't be fielding men for the Empire any time soon. The war will have ravaged the land, crops will need to be regrown, homes rebuilt, wounds healed, and Anarchy turned to order ( which ties up the 6th even longer, if not permanently requiring it's stationing there in order to remain order ). Leaving 5 Legions only. The White-Gold Concordant reduced the number of Legions the Empire can field from 12 to 6, with a third of those being green troops, and one entire Legion stationed in Skyrim for the forseeable future. No, the decision TMII made not to fight it out was the wrong one, and has effectively killed the Empire. Just the sheer size of the border needed to guard against Valenwood alone would take up 2 if not 3 Legions, and even then a few local Cities would be left to fend for themselves. These Legions would have to face a Thalmor Army at least as large as the one that broke through the first time, and required recalling the Hammerfell and Skyrim Legions in order to save the Empire. There are no more reserves this time, and if the Thalmor want, they can take the Imperial City any time they want. Skyrim's rebellion had little to do with this, as losing a third of the Legions to Hammerfell was the real beginning of the downfall, losing another 2 to Skyrim didn't matter very much, as without Hammerfell the Empire already had too little strength to resist the Thalmor. However the Thalmor are only a true danger to Cyrodil, Hammerfell has shown it can resist the Thalmor Unassisted, Skyrim can do the same, and has a better chance at it than the Empire does, since any attempt at preserving what's left of the Empire would only benefit Cyrodil, not Skyrim. To block any Thalmor attack would leave Skyrim Defenseless regarding on Local guards to stop a Thalmor Strike from the High Reaches. Simply put, Skyrim's best interests are best served by Independence, the Empire's best interest is served in Skyrim staying part of the Empire, however that would be to the detriment of Skyrim. If the player truly wants to save Skyrim, they'll side with the Stormcloaks, if they wish to save the Empire, at Skyrim's detriment, they'll join the Empire. I've given all the reasons I can that the Empire isn't worth saving in my opinion, and I've backed them up with all the facts I've scoured from across Cannon wiki's. It's as simple as this, Skyrim will fall if the Empire wins, Skyrim -may- survive if the Stormcloaks win, and that saving depends heavily on whether they can duplicate what Hammerfell did, and I can't think of a reason they can't. It's a coin flip to be sure whether the Stormcloaks can save Skyrim from the Thalmor, but it's a guarantee that Skyrim itself will not be able to stand if the Empire wins. That to me is just a fact. The real question comes down to which is more important, Skyrim or Cyrodil ( let's not even call it the Empire anymore, the Empire -is- just Skyrim and Cyrodil, nothing else remains that is of consequence ) so basically the player chooses between a weak leader who bleeds his people dry, and makes deals with Genocidal maniacs in TMII, or they side with a ego-centric but patriotic, quasi-rascist, nord in Ulfric. It's the player's choice, but the larger picture leads to who deserves to exist. Skyrim or Cyrodil. I choose Skyrim based on the actions of TMII and my disgust with him. At least Ulfric has the guts to fight for his country, to the end if need be. That's the point, if it's worth fighting for it's worth fighting for to the end, and Ulfric represents that, not TMII, not Tullius, and Certainly not The Empire. Analogies all made and set straight, I see no problems with them. Reasons set straight, I feel that they are all valid and well reasoned, history set straight, I've cited where to find the information I've given. As far as I know I haven't missed anything. Stormcloaks are Skyrim's best chance, if you want Skyrim to survive pick them, if you care more about the survival of Cyrodil ( and with it the " Empire " which is just Cyrodil and Skyrim at this point, it's only an Empire if they hold onto Skyrim ) then side with the Imperials. That's just how the facts fall down, and the player can make their choice about who the better leader is, Ulfric or TMII, and which leader is most likely to protect the most people and drive the Thalmor from their lands. TMII has already let the people down once, and once is too many. It is my opinion, based on facts, that the Empire couldn't withstand a full Thalmor attack even if they win in Skyrim, but anything is possible I guess. It is also my opinion that the success that Hammerfell and the Redguards achieved against the Thalmor could be repeated in Skyrim, and I find it much more likely than any attempt the Empire could make at defeating them. I can think of no way in which Skyrim would be better off with the Empire, and I can think of plenty of ways that it couldn't. Bigger picture, for Skyrim, independence is the best option. That's the end decision the Dragon Born must make. To chance it with the Empire or to take what I think is the option more likely to succeed against the Thalmor and side with Skyrim Independence. The Empire still has High Rock. I can't really respond to that whole thing you wrote there but I'll try and address some of the more important points. Specifically Skyrim's ability to survive on its own. I doubt Skyrim could stand up to the Thalmor themselves should they invade. You can't compare Hammerfell's situation with Skyrim's. Hammerfell's war with the Thalmor began directly after the end of the Great War. The Redguards were fighting an already weakened enemy. Even then they did not win a complete victory. It was a stalemate. There is no evidence that they did any lasting damage to the Thalmor, but it has been stated that southern Hammerfell, which contains all of Hammerfell's major ports and cities, was left completely devastated. The Elven armies chose to withdraw and while Hammerfell burned, Summerset Isle was left completely untouched. The Civil War takes place twenty-five years after these events. The Thalmor have had some time to recover, and with their lands in good condition, they could probably do so faster than their enemies. In addition to the citizens of Summerset Isle, the Thalmor have Elsweyr and Valenwood to aid them as part of the Aldemeri Dominion. As far as we know they have no internal political struggles or wars to weaken them. Assuming Skyrim gains its independence, it would still be divided. Remember, it wasn't just the Imperial government that supported Imperial control, at least half of Skyrim's population and Jarls supported the Empire. While the Jarls sympathetic to the Empire would have been deposed, I doubt everyone in Skyrim would just go along with what Ulfric says. Then there are the Forsworn who hate the Nords and will continue to fight them. Skyrim also relies on the Empire for some of its food and resources. So while the Thalmor have gotten stronger since the end of their last war, Skyrim has only become weaker. All this taken into account, I doubt Skyrim could hold up against the Thalmor. Even if they replicated Hammerfell's results in their fight against the Thalmor, that would only leave Skyrim burnt, pillaged, and weaker than ever, and Summerset Isle in Pristine condition and ready to fight again. The fact that Ulfric was captured and ready for execution less than a year after the beginning of his rebellion doesn't say much for his chances of success either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StormHammer81 Posted November 23, 2012 Share Posted November 23, 2012 (edited) Agree with both of you. :) OMG I'm here at work today and they're shampooing the rugs, so it smells like a combination of shampoo and paint thinner in here :D Yeah, Bretons will come out of this neutral . The real $1,000,000 question is, if Hammerfell would try and ally with Highrock. Cause they did so before against the Orcs. I really don't think the Orcs would ally with the Thalmor because of their split with the Altmer back in the day, as the Orcs were driven away by their former kin in disgrace after their change. That's why they're refered to as Orcs and not elves because the Altmer Elves don't consider them to be "one of them" and they would probably be purged if possible. Thalmor would try to destroy them and drive them off their lands if they could. Those Thalmor are crazy and would think of the Orcs as being beneath them. Now, the Bretons if pushed into a corner will also follow Hammerfell's lead in the end. So even if the Empire does survive, some serious changes in foreign/domestic policy need to be made. Ultimately, for whatever reason I think if Hammerfell were to rejoin the Empire, that would take a lot of the heat out of the infection. Really, if you decide to try and save the Empire, this is what you're really trying to accomplish, convincing Hammerfell to come back thru your actions in Skyrim AND have an administration willing to pursue this goal by getting rid of the clueless moron - TMII. I'll say this, a Skyrim under Ulfric would have respect. They would. The Empire would be dead by it's own hand and Highrock would probably join up with Hammerfell. The $1,000,000 question there however, would be... How would Ulfric rule? The hell with Cyrodil, we already know they're dead. How would Ulfric get along with his neighbors? There have been border disputes between Skyrim and Hammerfell/Highrock before. I do agree, it is possible the Thalmor have bases in Highrock, to get at Hammerfell or drive a wedge between those two. That's another angle I hadn't considered, what with the whole Markarth incident and all. Thalmor definitely could have benefited from that in other ways. I don't really see Ulfric as a racist, it's just he wants Skyrim for the Nords FIRST. Which is kinda fair because it's their homeland. It also sucks because other races such as the Orcs were there first (before the Nords, Orcs settled at or somewhere near Saarthul because they were on the run from their former kin after they were changed), according to the Orc medicine lady and other references to Orc battles with Ysmir. One of the good things about the Empire was that it provided a platform for everyone to get along regardless of tradition and racial bias. Once Empire is gone from Skyrim, the old ways will become the standard. This could be a good thing, however it will lead to Civil unrest in areas populated by Bretons, Darkelves and Orcs which are minorities. Not to mention fighting with mages as well. I know Empire and TMII have made some mistakes, but Ulfric if given his way might make things worse. Like when Galmar says, "then we're going to remake Skyrim into what she once was" and even bandits who go around saying, "Skyrim for the Nords" and "Your kind has no place here". It will get much better for the Nords in the short run, although I think it wouldn't be too long before others in Skyrim started taking matters into their own hands to put down Ulfric's agenda/machine. The Nords should be able to make their house, their home, just not at the expense of others who have also helped to build that house. A kingdom divided against itself will fall. It's going to be interesting to see what the next DLC brings. Edited November 23, 2012 by bigmagy1981 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gabryal Posted November 24, 2012 Share Posted November 24, 2012 Agree with both of you. :) OMG I'm here at work today and they're shampooing the rugs, so it smells like a combination of shampoo and paint thinner in here :D Yeah, Bretons will come out of this neutral . The real $1,000,000 question is, if Hammerfell would try and ally with Highrock. Cause they did so before against the Orcs. I really don't think the Orcs would ally with the Thalmor because of their split with the Altmer back in the day, as the Orcs were driven away by their former kin in disgrace after their change. That's why they're refered to as Orcs and not elves because the Altmer Elves don't consider them to be "one of them" and they would probably be purged if possible. Thalmor would try to destroy them and drive them off their lands if they could. Those Thalmor are crazy and would think of the Orcs as being beneath them. Now, the Bretons if pushed into a corner will also follow Hammerfell's lead in the end. So even if the Empire does survive, some serious changes in foreign/domestic policy need to be made. Ultimately, for whatever reason I think if Hammerfell were to rejoin the Empire, that would take a lot of the heat out of the infection. Really, if you decide to try and save the Empire, this is what you're really trying to accomplish, convincing Hammerfell to come back thru your actions in Skyrim AND have an administration willing to pursue this goal by getting rid of the clueless moron - TMII. I'll say this, a Skyrim under Ulfric would have respect. They would. The Empire would be dead by it's own hand and Highrock would probably join up with Hammerfell. The $1,000,000 question there however, would be... How would Ulfric rule? The hell with Cyrodil, we already know they're dead. How would Ulfric get along with his neighbors? There have been border disputes between Skyrim and Hammerfell/Highrock before. I do agree, it is possible the Thalmor have bases in Highrock, to get at Hammerfell or drive a wedge between those two. That's another angle I hadn't considered, what with the whole Markarth incident and all. Thalmor definitely could have benefited from that in other ways. I don't really see Ulfric as a racist, it's just he wants Skyrim for the Nords FIRST. Which is kinda fair because it's their homeland. It also sucks because other races such as the Orcs were there first (before the Nords, Orcs settled at or somewhere near Saarthul because they were on the run from their former kin after they were changed), according to the Orc medicine lady and other references to Orc battles with Ysmir. One of the good things about the Empire was that it provided a platform for everyone to get along regardless of tradition and racial bias. Once Empire is gone from Skyrim, the old ways will become the standard. This could be a good thing, however it will lead to Civil unrest in areas populated by Bretons, Darkelves and Orcs which are minorities. Not to mention fighting with mages as well. I know Empire and TMII have made some mistakes, but Ulfric if given his way might make things worse. Like when Galmar says, "then we're going to remake Skyrim into what she once was" and even bandits who go around saying, "Skyrim for the Nords" and "Your kind has no place here". It will get much better for the Nords in the short run, although I think it wouldn't be too long before others in Skyrim started taking matters into their own hands to put down Ulfric's agenda/machine. The Nords should be able to make their house, their home, just not at the expense of others who have also helped to build that house. A kingdom divided against itself will fall. It's going to be interesting to see what the next DLC brings. I still maintain that the Empire depends entirely on whether or not they can bring Hammerfell back into the fold. I still see no reason that Skyrim couldn't duplicate Hammerfell's success, however you both are right in that it would leave damage Skyrim badly, the question really is " What part of the Empire -isn't- damaged already. I already mentioned the loss of the Legions, that's a huge problem. Skyrim under Ulfric could be better, or could be much worse. As far as Jarls acting against the High King, that just doesn't happen with the Nords. Once a High King is High King, that's the end of the matter. It's only when there -is- no High King that things fall apart. That's just tradition for the Nords, no matter how much they might dislike Ulfric, once that crown is on his head, Skyrim is unified for better or worse, and Ulfric -is- a fighter. He may be a lousy king but he's an outstanding General ( even TMII said so ) so as far as that goes, when it comes to war, he can give the best Skyrim's got against the Thalmor. The Empire is spent though, it just simply cannot cover all it's territory with the troops it has. It's simply impossible. Hammerfell breaking away pretty much encouraged every other province to break away, and TMII gave them even more of an excuse. The territory lost since the ending of the Third age astounds me, but that's history and Skyrim is the present. Nothing I've seen or read suggest that the Empire can survive with or without Skyrim, and it's actions in the last 100 years made me decide that honestly, it shouldn't. Even before TMII the Mede line of Emperors were horrible. Long live the Septim's but their legacy is gone. As I said before, may the 9 divines watch over you Martin, you were the embodiment of what an Emperor should be, no matter how short your reign. That's all the response I can give right now, it's late and I'm tired. This is a fun debate, but I still have to side with Stormcloak's because I still believe that they're what's best for Skyrim, and I'm siding with Skyrim as a region this time, the Mede's made me give up on The Empire, and that's tragic, but all good things come to an end. If only the Septim's had survived, but we cannot bring them back, and without them The Empire is gone. I've made my point on Talos before too, and I don't think that that can be defended. The Mede Dynasty ruined what was once a glorious and successful union, but it's gone now, and I have to side with what I think is best for the name of the game. If TES V carries the name Skyrim, the what's best for Skyrim is what I'll do. I do truly wish that Torygg hadn't died, in many ways what I've read about him, he reminded me of Martin. Ulfric's ambition killed him, but we work with what we have, and Ulfric is all Skyrim's got, and it's best chance at survival, for all the reason's I've mentioned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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