The Great Imperial vs. Stormcloak Debate

[StormHammer81]

Deleted Edited December 5, 2012 by bigmagy1981

[Gabryal]

Very well, it's been a pleasure. So, obviously I was considering changing my stance. It's not every day a man gets to start over :)

 

I think that ultimately, my final choice is still The Empire. This was a hard decision to come to. Someone needs to take a stand not just against the Thalmor, but against their propaganda, which is a major part of the Civil War. They have used a wedge time and time again to divide Tamriel up and split the Empire. Well, no more. The way I see it, someone needs to put them back in their place and the only way to do this is to shut down the Thalmor's control mechanisms. The main one being the wedge. Saving the Empire will really help put a stop to the hull breach. Once the Thalmor see they can't force us to destroy ourselves, then their hand will be forced and it'll be time to put up or shut up. Ulfric getting his way is really, in the end, nothing more than just another Thalmor Victory, another Trophy on their wall. Because they can get to him, they have done it before and............. now Ulfric will receive his crown from the Thalmor? I don't think so, not this time. Sometimes you have to walk the line for those you love. Remember that old song, "Because your mine, I walk the line..." This time the Thalmor are going to be kicked out of Skyrim, out of the Empire and back onto that sh*tty little Island of theirs that no one cares about.

 

An Empire of man is still an Empire of man, is still an Empire of man, is still an Empire of man, is still an Empire of man, is still an Empire of man....

 

Well, I think I've well exceeded my post limits on here and now I shall bid you all a fond farewell!

 

 

LONG LIVE THE EMPIRE OF TALOS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

I'll stand with the Stormcloaks but damnit if this hasn't been one hell of a good arguement. Everything I believe is so damn hard to come by, in the end it's all about the Thalmor, and honestly I'd side with the devil himself if it would kill those pointy eared bastards. Well I think I'll lay off this a bit as well, whoever it is that comes out on top, I want the Thalmor destroyed, that's my end all decision, and I'll side with whoever I see do it best. Damnit if it isn't a hard decision though.

[Neji64]

I have to agree with what Ulfric says at the end, "The Empire I knew never surrendered". And then there is Hammerfell who became independent and are doing just fine, and I play a redguard so that kind of sways the decision. Besides I feel like eventually Skyrim and the Empire would still work together if the Thalmor invaded, that whole common enemy thing.

[7selah]

One thing I've realised when playing through is that the worship of Talos is going to continue whether Skyrim is under the Empire or Ulfric. Even Elisif worships Talos!

I ended up siding with the empire because of what happened with the Markarth incedent. Ulfric was just pissed because he got betrayed there after helping them out. A strong empire is the worst thing for the Thalmor.

[Gabryal]

One thing I've realised when playing through is that the worship of Talos is going to continue whether Skyrim is under the Empire or Ulfric. Even Elisif worships Talos!

I ended up siding with the empire because of what happened with the Markarth incedent. Ulfric was just pissed because he got betrayed there after helping them out. A strong empire is the worst thing for the Thalmor.

 

I'm not quite sure I can agree with your reasoning but only for one moment ( I've spent pages upon pages of debate on this thread already ) but here it is. The Markath Incident was this, when Ulfric took the city he killed every single member of the Rebel forces ( or High Rock ones, whoever they were ) that took Markath + their Collaborators. He treated them very harshly because they had invaded a taken a city ( and by the way was under the empire to take it back, but that's not really my point ).

 

In the same fashion, during the Battle of the Ring, when the Empire took back another Imperial city taken by invading forces ( The Imperial City ) they slaughtered every enemy in the city + their collaborators.

 

What's the difference? Except of course that in Markath hundreds were granted no quarter, and in The Battle of the Ring, tens of thousands were. If you don't take the number into account ( I don't if the policy of invaders taking imperial cities is no quarter, no mercy, I can respect that ) then Ulfric and TMII ( Titus Mede the 2nd, The Emperor ) behaved exactly the same. So the Markath incident really shouldn't be a deciding factor on who to join. When facing an enemy both Ulfric and the Emperor are equally ruthless and merciless.

[StormHammer81]

Ahhh "The Markarth Incident" This was very important for numerous reasons. Still, it is very hard to use the Markarth incident as a deciding factor. It was just a terrible, messed-up cluster f*** nightmare for everyone involved. You can read the "Bear of Markarth" and the "Crimes of Ulfric Stormcloak" if you want but ultimately, the Empire is more or less in the same boat.

 

Basically, the Markarth job was orchestrated and implemented by Ingrid, now the Jarl of Markarth against the peaceful Forsworn kingdom which took back their land during the war. Read "Legend of Red-Eagle" and talk to the stables guy outside of Markarth for more details on the Forsworn. Anyways, Empire thru Ingrid used Ulfric to take his father's city back, Ulfric used him to try and restore Talos worship to the Reach and then the Thalmor sat quietly behind the scenes and waited them all out. Now, errrr here's the thing. There are some things which don't make sense here. Like what does Ulfric care about Markarth or The Reach? Especially since it's population is/was mostly Bretons, some of who escaped and fled to the hills to make trouble afterwards. It makes no sense that he would have even taken the job because Stormcloak capital is waaaaaaay over on the other side of Skyrim. Additionally, someone tipped of the Thalmor because a Thalmor delegation was sent to Markarth immediately after Empire accepted the city back from Ulfric. Imperial historians speak of Ulfric's cruelty to the people in the captured city and I think there is truth in that, for the most part anyways because the account of that event comes from an Imperial historian.

 

So, it says in Ulfric' Dossier that he was communicating with the Thalmor at least *up to* Markarth Incident and now *refuses to cooperate* with them anymore. I would conjecture the Thalmor and Ulfric had some kind of arrangement under the table, even an insignificant one. Again, it's just a theory. Makes sense though because both hate the Empire and both need the Empire gone for pursuing their own ambitions. Both had much to gain, again the game with them isn't all that different. Ulfric needed a catalyst to start his revolt and Thalmor wanted to gain a foothold into Skyrim or have an excuse for going to war with the Empire. It would seem that Ulfric being arrested was where the deal went south or Ulfric just used that as an excuse to take matters into his own hands now and refuses to cooperate with the Thalmor. Unless that was all part of the plan. Things weren't perfect but were moving right along under the WGC, it would take an incident like Markarth to get people stirred up *behind Ulfric* against the Empire. They're already stirred up enough but this is all about Ulfric. Which is why he decided to *engineer some means* of killing the High King. Ulfric wants to have the power in the end, not follow Torryg, even if the man was his friend.

 

Again, I can't necessarily prove this but the shoe fits. Ulfric, good or bad is playing a very dangerous game here. But it could work out for the good of Skyrim.

Edited December 5, 2012 by bigmagy1981

[Gabryal]

Ahhh "The Markarth Incident" This was very important for numerous reasons. Still, it is very hard to use the Markarth incident as a deciding factor. It was just a terrible, messed-up cluster f*** nightmare for everyone involved. You can read the "Bear of Markarth" and the "Crimes of Ulfric Stormcloak" if you want but ultimately, the Empire is more or less in the same boat.

 

Basically, the Markarth job was orchestrated and implemented by Ingrid, now the Jarl of Markarth against the peaceful Forsworn kingdom which took back their land during the war. Read "Legend of Red-Eagle" and talk to the stables guy outside of Markarth for more details on the Forsworn. Anyways, Empire thru Ingrid used Ulfric to take his father's city back, Ulfric used him to try and restore Talos worship to the Reach and then the Thalmor sat quietly behind the scenes and waited them all out. Now, errrr here's the thing. There are some things which don't make sense here. Like what does Ulfric care about Markarth or The Reach? Especially since it's population is/was mostly Bretons, some of who escaped and fled to the hills to make trouble afterwards. It makes no sense that he would have even taken the job because Stormcloak capital is waaaaaaay over on the other side of Skyrim. Additionally, someone tipped of the Thalmor because a Thalmor delegation was sent to Markarth immediately after Empire accepted the city back from Ulfric. Imperial historians speak of Ulfric's cruelty to the people in the captured city and I think there is truth in that, for the most part anyways because the account of that event comes from an Imperial historian.

 

So, it says in Ulfric' Dossier that he was communicating with the Thalmor at least *up to* Markarth Incident and now *refuses to cooperate* with them anymore. I would conjecture the Thalmor and Ulfric had some kind of arrangement under the table, even an insignificant one. Again, it's just a theory. Makes sense though because both hate the Empire and both need the Empire gone for pursuing their own ambitions. Both had much to gain, again the game with them isn't all that different. Ulfric needed a catalyst to start his revolt and Thalmor wanted to gain a foothold into Skyrim or have an excuse for going to war with the Empire. It would seem that Ulfric being arrested was where the deal went south or Ulfric just used that as an excuse to take matters into his own hands now and refuses to cooperate with the Thalmor. Unless that was all part of the plan. Things weren't perfect but were moving right along under the WGC, it would take an incident like Markarth to get people stirred up *behind Ulfric* against the Empire. They're already stirred up enough but this is all about Ulfric. Which is why he decided to *engineer some means* of killing the High King. Ulfric wants to have the power in the end, not follow Torryg, even if the man was his friend.

 

Again, I can't necessarily prove this but the shoe fits. Ulfric, good or bad is playing a very dangerous game here. Another reason I chose to side with the Empire, least I know who I'm dealing with.

 

Yes Toryyg really does cinch Ulfic's personality for me because as much as Ulfric wants to claim that young kid ( and guys he was young, maybe about 20, his wife is listed as 18 in the Wiki I read ) was a tool of the Empire, he simply wasn't. This poor guy was in awe of Ulfric, listened to his every word. He was about 90% there on seceding from the Empire -himself- and believed that Ulfric was riding into town to discuss it the day that Ulfric killed him, not come to challenge him.

 

Really all Ulfric would have had to do was make the same case I've made about Skyrim ( over and over and over again now, god feels like forever ) to Torygg with about half the passion put into it that I have, and Skyrim would have gone into a unified revolt against the Empire, and I mean Unified. In Skyrim you may not agree with the high king, but once you bow the knee you follow him. It's just that simple, if the High King is on the throne the only way to get him off is one on one combat, not open revolt ( like there is now with the Stormcloaks, it's part of the problem that Ulfric ran into, he couldn't revolt with Torygg on the throne because no one would follow him since there was a High King who was alive ) so in the end while I still end up signing on with the Stormcloaks ( for all the reasons I've listed before )

 

I don't deny that Ulfric is a power hungry guy. Now I don't think he's as power hungry as some people think he is, don't get me wrong his Ego is the size of Skyrim itself, but not without reason. He's a brilliant General, a shrewd politician ( in the Nord sense at least ) and really does have the best interest of Skyrim at heart, even if he's going about it wrong. He simply believes he's the best man to lead Skyrim, and he might even be right. Torygg for all his enthusiasm I think would have ended up a puppet to Ulfric if Ulfric hadn't killed him and Skyrim had revolted, as I said before he damn near worshiped Ulfric. That's the tragedy there, a lot of blood could have been saved and created an Independent Skyrim, with that good hearted but relatively young High King still on his throne and Ulfric his chief adviser and war leader ( and the true power behind the throne ) but apparently that wasn't good enough for Ulfric, he wanted absolute control, and in a Nord sort of way, it makes sense that he would. Unlike the Imperials manipulation seems to really sit sour in a Nord's mouth, at best they distrust it, at worst they consider it a sign of weakness ( hence the whole conflict in the first place, Ulfric claims and many believe that the Empire was manipulating Torygg ). It replays over and over again in the story how one of the things they despise most about the " Mer " is that they're untrustworthy and manipulative ( which they are to a greater or lesser extent ).

 

That's more or less the entire reasoning I've had from the beginning. The Empire needs Skyrim, Skyrim doesn't need the Empire, and sense the game is essentially about the fate of Skyrim, it makes sense to me to do what's best for Skyrim, even if it means the only way to do it is to side with Ulfric. If it was possible to take down Ulfric in one on one combat ( if you play a Nord anyway ) and assume control of Skyrim yourself, I'd definitely go that option. The Dragonborn would be a much better High King than Ulfric ever could possibly be. My standing evidence that Ulfric really does put Skyrim first, in his own way, revolves around the campaign if you side with the Empire. After Ulfric's dead and you travel to Sovengarde you meet Ulfric's ghost and his Ghost talks only about Skyrim, mourning it's fate, and begging you to save it. Even in death and failure, Ulfric's main concern is his country. Whatever else he is, he -is- a patriot.

 

On a side note, has it occurred to anyone else that we've put way way way more thought into all of this than probably the writers of the game did?

[StormHammer81]

Correct. I think while Ulfric does want power, it's very apparent he cares about his country and people too. He would make a good High King for Skyrim. I dunno. Maybe I'm on the wrong side of this thing. :)

 

Ulfric has a plan and whatever it is, doesn't just include him becoming High King. I guess he's just really really really pissed off at all the sh*t that's gone down and he's tired of being used. So, he's going to start calling the game how he sees it. I mean, Ulfric aside the Stormcloaks have their heart(s) in the right place. I've met many of them in the game, they're nice people. Even High Elves have shops in Windhelm, I think Ulfric doesn't want another welfare class. The Dark Elves will work or they will get no help from the Nords. Sounds fair really.

 

Besides, I've come to realize that even if the Empire survives, none of them will revere Talos. Based on what I've seen, the only thing to do at this point is start over again. I dunno. I was playing yesterday and saw Rogvir get executed. He seemed so "at peace" in death, by the look on his face. And the Stormcloaks aren't f*cking around either. Too many times I've had to go all Stormcloak on someone because of being used and pushed around and have had to "break away" from what once was a good and honorable association.

 

And, the Stormcloaks are the best smiths in the game, I can always count on them to get kool enchanted stuff. Alright fine, f*ck it.

 

 

FREEDOM OR SOVNGARDE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

 

To my former Stormcloak opponents, look, I wanted the Empire to survive however, even if it survives the Thalmor have messed with people's heads for too long and the Empire of Talos is only the Empire of Talos IF the people recognize Talos and do his will. TBH I don't think they care anymore because the damage is done. To Cyrodil, there is only the 8 now, either way and many of them I'm sure, hold animosity towards Talos for the War. Skyrim deserves better than that and Legate Rikke is a damn fool for throwing in with the Imperials. So, I'm pretty happy with this and I think... that a new country built on ideals such as Freedom, Liberty, Hard Work and Tolerance is much better than the fading shelter of an corrupt Empire that has forgotten and revolted against it's creator. I still think the Imperials would be "The Good Guys" however, sometimes in order to defeat a great evil it takes another kind of evil. Being a "Good Guy" however won't get you sh*t in life.

 

Ulfric has the will and wits to make a lot of things happen, I just ultimately have realized that the Empire will never be the same, never hold any respect for Talos and therefore it's founding principles as it once did, so let it go. Let Cyrodil go it's way, let Highrock go their way and leave Skyrim to itself. It will be some time before the Dominion will be ready for another war, so Skyrim should be good to go and there are numerous Legions left in Cyrodil. And Jarl B and his Administration had the balls to attack ME after I killed two or three parties of Thalmor. So, Jarl B may be a good guy however, he will be corrupted by the Empire as well in the end. And another thing I didn't like was how that Imperial Captain b*tch took out the Thief and quickly called me up to have my head caught off. Poor fellow was begging for his life and she just took him out. F*ck that.

 

Also, worshiping in secret will accomplish nothing. I guess you could say that saving the Empire would be like... a Fireman standing outside letting your house burn because you worship a God the state doesn't approve of. And if the state can prevent you from having a relationship with the Lord, even if it's different from there's, then that is a mechanism which needs to be torn down and abolished post haste. So that whatever takes it's place will realize that this evil will never be tolerated EVER AGAIN!!!

 

If Cyrodil wants to become slaves to elves again, let them. Because before, it was Skyrim and people like Pelinal who set Cyrodil free. And Skyrim would do better without the Elves and the Empire or the Emperor. We need to just get rid of the whole damn lot of them. Cyrodil needs to stop pimping Skyrim and Highrock. Cyrodil can take care of itself and Highrock will join with Hammerfell, leaving Skyrim to it's own devices. Sounds like a much better ending, really.

 

 

FREEDOM OR SOVNGARDE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Edited December 5, 2012 by bigmagy1981

[Gabryal]

Correct. I think while Ulfric does want power, it's very apparent he cares about his country and people too. He would make a good High King for Skyrim. I dunno. Maybe I'm on the wrong side of this thing. :)

 

Ulfric has a plan and whatever it is, doesn't just include him becoming High King. I guess he's just really really really pissed off at all the sh*t that's gone down and he's tired of being used. So, he's going to start calling the game how he sees it. I mean, Ulfric aside the Stormcloaks have their heart(s) in the right place. I've met many of them in the game, they're nice people. Even High Elves have shops in Windhelm, I think Ulfric doesn't want another welfare class. The Dark Elves will work or they will get no help from the Nords. Sounds fair really.

 

Besides, I've come to realize that even if the Empire survives, none of them will revere Talos. Based on what I've seen, the only thing to do at this point is start over again. I dunno. I was playing yesterday and saw Rogvir get executed. He seemed so "at peace" in death, by the look on his face. And the Stormcloaks aren't f*cking around either. Too many times I've had to go all Stormcloak on someone because of being used and pushed around and have had to "break away" from what once was a good and honorable association.

 

And, the Stormcloaks are the best smiths in the game, I can always count on them to get kool enchanted stuff. Alright fine, f*ck it.

 

 

FREEDOM OR SOVNGARDE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

 

To my former Stormcloak opponents, look, I wanted the Empire to survive however, even if it survives the Thalmor have messed with people's heads for too long and the Empire of Talos is only the Empire of Talos IF the people recognize Talos and do his will. TBH I don't think they care anymore because the damage is done. To Cyrodil, there is only the 8 now, either way and many of them I'm sure, hold animosity towards Talos for the War. Skyrim deserves better than that and Legate Rikke is a damn fool for throwing in with the Imperials. So, I'm pretty happy with this and I think... that a new country built on ideals such as Freedom, Liberty, Hard Work and Tolerance is much better than the fading shelter of an corrupt Empire that has forgotten and revolted against it's creator. I still think the Imperials would be "The Good Guys" however, sometimes in order to defeat a great evil it takes another kind of evil. Being a "Good Guy" however won't get you sh*t in life.

 

Ulfric has the will and wits to make a lot of things happen, I just ultimately have realized that the Empire will never be the same, never hold any respect for Talos and therefore it's founding principles the same way, so let it go. Let Cyrodil go it's way, let Highrock go their way and leave Skyrim to itself. It will be some time before the Dominion will be ready for another war, so Skyrim should be good to go. And Jarl B and his Administration had the balls to attack ME after I killed two or three parties of Thalmor. So, Jarl B may be a good guy however, he will be corrupted by the Empire as well in the end. And another thing I didn't like was how that Imperial Captain b*tch took out the Thief and quickly called me up to have my head caught off. Poor fellow was begging for his life and she just took him out. F*ck that.

 

Also, worshiping in secret will accomplish nothing. I guess you could say that saving the Empire would be like... a Fireman standing outside letting your house burn because you worship a God the state doesn't approve of. And if the state can prevent you from having a relationship with the Lord, even if it's different from there's, then that is a mechanism which needs to be torn down and abolished post haste. So that whatever takes it's place will realize that this will not be allowed EVER AGAIN!!!

 

If Cyrodil wants to become slaves to elves again, let them. Because before, it was Skyrim and people like Pelinal who set Cyrodil free. And Skyrim would do better without the Elves and the Empire or the Emperor. We need to just get rid of the whole damn lot of them.

 

 

FREEDOM OR SOVNGARDE

 

You realize my friend you and I have bounced from one side to the other and back again that I'm dizzy, we've both been pro-imperial, then pro-stormcloak, then pro-imperial, then pro-stormcloak ad nauseum. I guess that means they wrote in a pretty good story to Skyrim, but I think you're right in the end, the Empire just isn't what it used to be and it can't be put back together again.

 

I did a comparison with the Empire of Today vs The Empire during the time of the Septim's using relatively modern times and events as analogies. I think those analogies were lost on a lot of people, but one of the things I did mention was " If the UK had caved to Nazi Germany, and then banned the Scottish Presbyterian Church, and then allowed the SS into Scotland to drag off anyone who practiced Scottish Prebyterianism without trial or notice never to be heard from again, most people would be behind Scotland if they Rebelled under those circumstances, and be appalled if the UK in response to the Rebellion attempted to put it down with British Troops "

 

I think that statement was lost on most people with the UK being the Empire, Nazi Germany being the Dominion, the Church being Talos Worship, and the SS being the Thalmor. I also pointed out in that analogy that Scotland ( or anyone ) would follow a guy who cut off people's faces and wore then as a hat, if that guy could liberate them from the SS and by proxy the British Troops. I think for the most part this is true, in case of point William Wallace used to make belts out of straps of skin from the English Soldiers he killed, and he's a Scottish Hero, so I'm not too far off the mark there.

 

I also pointed out that compared to a guy who cuts off people's faces and wears them as a hat, Ulfric isn't that bad.

 

I really do think I'm spot on with my analogies, and still stand by them, but it is a sad sad thing to see. The Empire is dead, and TMII is responsible, and there is no going back. If the UK in my analogy had done what in the analogy I said it had done, there would be no UK today. We all know it, and honestly we'd be glad it was gone, look at it as a horrible relic of the past, an institution that deserved to die and in it's last moments broke apart like a rotten melon. No one living today would have blamed the Scots for rebelling nor supported the British actions of invading and occupying Scotland to put down the Rebellion.

 

So why would people support the Empire who has done exactly that? If the Empire is the UK in my analogy, and all the pieces I just brought up are accurate ( and they are, no one's argue'd that yet ) then why would anyone support the Empire? That's what it really came down to for me, and the saddest part about it is that it didn't have to be that way. Titus Mede II killed the Empire, and I don't mean " Wounded Badly " I mean killed. No one can bring it back from the death blow he gave it.

 

In Britain's Darkest hour Winston Churchill said " We'll Fight on the Beaches, We'll Fight in the Streets, We'll Fight in the Hills, We'll Fight on the Seas, We'll Fight with growing confidence in the Air, We'll Never Surrender! And should the day come when the Shores of Britain feel the boot of the Gestapo then from our Colonies and our Territories we shall fight on until Tyranny is put down, perhaps for years, perhaps alone. So I do not fear, nor shy from the coming conflict for should our Empire last for another thousand years, let men say that this was their greatest hour "

 

Not a direct quote but close enough.

 

Titus Mede II said " Thank you sir may I have another "

 

Britain's Darkest hour was much much Darker then the Empire's Darkest hour, and you simply can't come back from " Thank you sir may I have another " it just doesn't happen that way, once you make a mistake of that magnitude the entirety of the system upon which your institution was based " The Strength and Majesty of the Empire " is evaporated. Illusion makes reality, and you can't undo the past. You're absolutely right when you say that the Empire has already started " The 8 Divines " thing, and with it Talos can never come back into the fold, never fully, never again. That alone changed the Empire forever, and really that alone was enough to break it, even without the shameful cowardly actions of TMII.

 

The problem is that once it's done... it's done. The Empire was broken not upon the sword but upon the pen, the pen that was held in that rancid -Mede- hand ( long live the Septim's Martin we miss you so much ) when it signed the White-Gold Concordant. It cannot be mended no matter how long a person labored, nor how strong they were. It's terribly sad to see, and damnit if it isn't almost heart breaking.

 

That's part of the tragic beauty of the story though. I think in Arena we saw the beginning of the Empire, It's Growth in Hammerfell, we saw it's golden age in Morrowind, it's decline in Oblivion and now I think we're witnessing it's death. We've come full circle, and it's hard to watch a good friend die. I know that I grit my teeth and a good reason I held to the pro-imperial side of it for so long was simply because I couldn't let it die, not if I could help it, not on my watch, no no no... until I realized I was attempting to give CPR to someone who was already gone. It was only then, when I realized my good friend was dead, that I had to look up and see that not all hope is lost, that there are other people who need my help, that Skyrim can be saved at least, that the Thalmor do not yet control the world, that there is still hope ( Thank you Hammerfell for showing us that ) and while we lost a good friend when the Empire died, it does not mean we cannot move on and hold fast against the Evil of the Genocidal Dominion or Daedric Princes or anything else that should fall into our path.

 

The journey of The Elder Scrolls is bigger that that we sometimes forget, that Tamriel isn't just a series of lands and cultures, kings and emperors, races and monsters, or Gods and Daedra. It's a land of Ideas, its' a land of Hero's, it's a land where one person can make a difference.

 

So while my good friend the Empire is dead, The Elder Scrolls continue on, and will always continue on, and not even the Divines or the Princes can stop that ( and if you're a long time fan like most of us we all know they've tried pretty hard to ) so hope remains. The actions of the player politically? I side with the Stormcloaks. Ethically I stand against the Dominion. Morally I stand for the eternal laws of The Elder Scrolls.

 

That's what I've had to embrace in the end, and bigmagy I love ya bro. Between us we've been able to dissect the most minute details of TES Lore and Legend, stories and personalities, battles, fabels, peoples and nations, history, philosophy, religion, culture, and struggles of all sorts. In one way that really does make us a pair of truly geeked out TES fans. On the other however, it makes us passionate individuals who delve into conflicts all the way to the hilt with only one real goal in mind.

 

To come to the purest truth we can come to, and once we have it to keep on polishing it till it gleams.

 

Thank you for your insights my friend, it truly is an amazing and thought provoking conversation ( wouldn't it be nice if the UN would get involved in these sort of conversations? The world would be a lot nicer place. ).

 

Long Live Talos, All Hail the Memory of Martin Septim, and for the glory of The Elder Scrolls let all quake who stand in the way of the Hero's past and present.

[StormHammer81]

Edited December 7, 2012 by bigmagy1981