The Great Imperial vs. Stormcloak Debate

[StormHammer81]

Yeah, I just uninstalled Skyrim. I'm not going to play again for a looong time. I was in a brawl fight with that crazy woman in Whiterun (The one in the plate armor who got kicked out of the Companions) so anyways, we're in this brawl and Mickel gets in the way, I accidentally hit him one time and then b*tch pulls out a Steel Sword and kills me. Another thing I don't like about this game is how I might be on either side and I accidentally hit one Imperial or Stormcloak and then they all turn on me. Not realistic. Going to back to New Vegas. Now there's one AWESOME game!!!! :)

 

See ya'll later! :D

Edited December 8, 2012 by bigmagy1981

[Gabryal]

Yeah, I just uninstalled Skyrim. I'm not going to play again for a looong time. I was in a brawl fight with that crazy woman in Whiterun (The one in the plate armor who got kicked out of the Companions) so anyways, we're in this brawl and Mickel gets in the way, I accidentally hit him one time and then b*tch pulls out a Steel Sword and kills me. Another thing I don't like about this game is how I might be on either side and I accidentally hit one Imperial or Stormcloak and then they all turn on me. Not realistic. Going to back to New Vegas. Now there's one AWESOME game!!!! :)

 

See ya'll later! :D

 

been considering this myself, but honestly not sure I want to play any of them at this particular moment. Not sure what I -do- want to play now ( already beat COD Black Ops 2, Assassin's Creed 3, and rebeat Mass Effect 3 ) but not sure if I want to go back to Fallout just yet, I do love the post apoc setting, I hope they come out with a new one at some point soon.

[StormHammer81]

Yes they are working on Fallout 4 - This has been confirmed. Word on the street is it will be based out of Chicago area. It was supposed to be from Boston however this was decided against apparently. I love me some New Vegas though. Good Stuff!!!! :)

 

Btw - I am re-installing Skyrim, oh why not :D IMO it's more fun playing with the Alt start feature (from the Alt Start Mod). They should have just incorporated that into the game. My Orc Knight started out at a Smugglers camp and I was helping fools and taking out morons along my merry way to Whiterun.

 

There's also a class mod available now from some saint where you can choose your class and birthsign, like from Oblivion.

 

Takes all of forever and a day to reinstall Skyrim though. I hope all my old mods can just be "reactivated" from MM.

Edited December 10, 2012 by bigmagy1981

[Gabryal]

Yes they are working on Fallout 4 - This has been confirmed. Word on the street is it will be based out of Chicago area. It was supposed to be from Boston however this was decided against apparently. I love me some New Vegas though. Good Stuff!!!! :)

 

Btw - I am re-installing Skyrim, oh why not :D IMO it's more fun playing with the Alt start feature (from the Alt Start Mod). They should have just incorporated that into the game. My Orc Knight started out at a Smugglers camp and I was helping fools and taking out morons along my merry way to Whiterun.

 

There's also a class mod available now from some saint where you can choose your class and birthsign, like from Oblivion.

 

Takes all of forever and a day to reinstall Skyrim though. I hope all my old mods can just be "reactivated" from MM.

 

The Alt Start mod is ok, usually though I prefer to start with the regional politics from the get go, though I understand your reticence because how many times have you ( for me it's 7 completed games and several more that I have not ) found yourself amazingly bored at attending your own beheading ( knowing what is coming kinda dampens the mood ).

 

The class mod you're talking about is called Character Creation Overhaul, and it truly is a little slice of heaven. It's one of those mods that should have been incorporated in the game from the beginning ( like half a dozen others I could name ) but fortunately some genius out there did Bethesda's work for them.

 

It may just be me, but does it kinda feel like Bethesda has gotten lazier with it's two recent release ( F:NV is good, but no where near as crisp as FO3, where much less needed to be repaired in the bugs department ) and has started counting on modders to fix their BS ( case in point, take TES5edit and run a sweep of Dawnguard when compared to it's " Master " file ( Skyrim.esm ) on redundent UDR's, actually scratch that I'll just tell you. The number is 6,053. That's right, when you install Dawnguard it duplicates 6,053 items that are already in the Skyrim.esm. To fix this would have takes all of 5 minutes with TES5edit, and if an outside source piece of software can do it, what could the owners of the actual source code do it in? ). It's really discouraging sometimes to see the holes left in the game that are so blatantly obvious as to be nearly saddening.

 

It feels like after awhile of playing Skyrim unmodded ( don't do it! ) that the game wasn't completely finished, a good example is arrow gravity weight. As an avid archer I'll tell you that if my arrows went up at a 60 degree angle the first 2 feet then dropped like a rock inside of 30 feet, I'd think someone spiked my water. However that's exactly what happens in vanilla skyrim.

 

Oh well, I've aired my woe's on this topic often enough that it's kinda repetitive, and fortunately guides and mods exist that fix 90% of these problems. Of course it doesn't -help- when they release a new addition or new content and this content to is buggy ( Why do I have to have 3 unofficial patches? Skyrim, Dawnguard and Hearthfire ), I just wish they'd pay the guys on the Nexus who fix there sloppy work.

[StormHammer81]

OCS is back online: http://skyrim.nexusmods.com/mods/28571/ Edited December 21, 2012 by bigmagy1981

[streetmonkey247]

Some of those whom declare that one side or another has a better chance of fighting off the Aldmeri Dominion; are wrong. Whomever the victor of the civil war plays out to be is the most likely to fend off the Thalmor - in short; the strongest side is the side which wins (duh). Some say that the empire is too weak to fight off the dominion - well if they were strong enough to destroy the stormcloaks, then those Ulfric-lovers would stand less of a chance against the Thalmor. Those who say that the Stormcloaks will divide the empire, splintering forces that should remain as a solid whole; as to fend off elven invasion. Yes, they will likely weaken the empire, but the stormcloaks have proven their superiority over the imperial forces - they are then Tamriel's greatest hope at salvation. People whom say that the empire would be stronger with the full support of the Nords? Well, they would be; but they won't achieve that via destroying the stormcloaks, will they? Just because your faction was defeated, it doesn't exactly mean that you'll join your foe......

 

You have to look at the holds of skyrim, in order to decide what's best for the Nordic people's homeland.

 

- Riften: a city of thieves and corruption. The Stormcloak's Jarl is Laila Law-Giver, whom is a benevolent but largely incompetent leader. The city is mostly run by Maven Black-Briar, whom's influenced the Jarl's court through Anuriel (the Jarl's steward). The Jarl's staff are quite idle - apart from Anuriel, whom's responsible for the complacency of Law-Giver. Laila is too passive and naive to properly rule the Rift. The Imperial alternative is simply handing over the city to Maven Black-Briar - which changes little, as she already ran the city anyway.

 

- Windhelm: the dark elves are sequestered and mistreated, under Ulfric's reign; so it's no surprise that I would advocate for the replacement of the power-hungry tyrant. The Imperial-backed Jarl, Brunwulf Free-Winter, is a much more desired choice; as he spreads prosperity and gradual acceptance of racial diversity. He's also a legion veteran, so he's basically Ulfric 2.0; I would back him if he was at the head of the Stormcloak rebellion (or the 'Freewinter Rebellion').

 

- Whiterun: one of the most influential cities of Skyrim. I personally like Balgruuf, the Jarl of Whiterun, he's a nice guy. He's a proud, strong ruler and also quite pleasant in most of his dealings with you. He's definetly one of the most benevolent AND powerful Jarls; I would recommend him for High King. The man sides with the empire, so a stormcloak-loyal dragonborn would be forced to fight him. This was really the decider for me; I don't like kicking a close ally off of his throne, just to replace him with some propaganda spewing old man whom seems to posses some memory issues. If their was an option to convince Balgruuf to side with the stormcloaks - perhaps via a speech check- I would probably have sided with the charismatic rebels instead.

 

- Winterhold: the wintry wasteland of a town, serving as a front door to the college. I dislike winterhold for its ghost-like appearance - I would have preferred it if it resembled the Hogsmeade, from Harry Potter. However, Jarl Korir - a stormcloak sympathiser - detests the college. His reasons are born from superstitious paranoia; he believes that the college is responsible for the destruction of Winterhold, without any proof whatsoever.

 

- Falkreath: the wood-engulfed town, famous for its graveyard. The gloomy and depressing town is run by Jarl Siddgeir, a pompous and arrogant brat of a Jarl. Dengeir is Siddgeir's uncle and predecessor; he was apparently forced to step down because of an Imperial plot against him. Siddgeir is the definition of corruption; admitting to getting paid to do absolutely nothing. Whilst the lazy, Imperial-fed snob may not be the msot desired leader - Dengeir is also extremely paranoid, most likely not fit to be give power. However, with that said, Dengeir was in power before; so there's a high chance his paranoia will fade once he becomes Jarl again. I have no preference here; they're both dicks. :D

 

- Markarth: the stone-walled fortress city of the Reach, which is plagued by Forsworn terrorists. Markarth is definetly an Imperial reflection of Riften; with corruption and a dominant family holding a tight grip over the city. I like Jarl Igmund, untrusting of dishonest professions - such as mercenaries - he seems to be a morally-sound person. However, he is ignorant to the fact that the forsworn are a larger threat than he thinks. Igmund possess a more competent court though, with Faleen and Raerk both being fully aware of the issue and trying to bring it to the Jarl's attention. It's a worthy note that Riften and Markarth are further mirrored in their courts; with both court's housecarls ending up in a relationship with an elf also in the court (Faleen/Calcelmo and Unmid/Anuriel). Thongvar Silver-Blood is the stormcloak's choice of Jarl, the man has a constant temper, he's also part of the influent Silver-Blood family; the Jarl was the only person who would get in the way of Silver-Blood plans (unlike the Black-Briars, in Riften.) His chosen steward is also a self-righteous, snobbish prick.

 

- Morthal: Jarl Idgrod Ravencrone is the Imperial's Jarl, and Sorli the Builder is the Stormcloak's Jarl. Not much changes in Morthal, I'd advise meeting them to determine which you would prefer; if it really comes down to that.

 

- Dawnstar: the frost-bound port town. The Stormcloak's Jarl is quite aggressive and paranoid; your first encounter of him will involve watching him threaten 2 legion veterans, even though they protest that they are EX legion. Former Legate, Brina Merilis, is installed as Jarl - if you follow the Imperial questline. She seems to be a lot more tolerant and welcoming to visitors than Skald the Elder. More people seem to be in favour of Brina, rather than Skald, most folk hate the stormcloak's jarl; even his own housecarl doesn't seem terribly fanatic about him.

 

- Solitude: Skyrim's prosperous capital. Elisif the Fair will always remain as Jarl, whichever side you choose, but the stormcloak path will involve her becoming Ulfric's puppet; her life spared for the sake of a political advantage. Solitude seems a lot more hollow with the stormcloaks in charge. The people are mostly disgusted by the Stormcloak occupation; it was the seat of the empire, in Skyrim, afterall!

 

Overall, I like the Stormcloak's ideals and values - but not those who lead them. I like the Imperial's leaders (Rikke, Balgruuf, Igmund etc.), but I disagree with the compliance they show to the elves. The only reason I would join the stormcloaks for is so Talos doesn't fade into non-existence. (if Talos worship is to completely cease, the god himself will also cease). Also, rising up as a Nordic army and defeating the elves - against all odds - is pretty badass. The Imperials are better people though, hopefully they will take the fight to the Thalmor.

[StormHammer81]

@streetmonkey247

 

That was a pretty nice analysis of how the Skyrim Jarls are like politically. End of the day... hell beginning of the day :) I think I will stay Empire. Or more specfically, I'm on the side of Whiterun. It's a nice city and Jarl Baalgruf is the man! He really seems to care about his people and I'm even more impressed at the fact he allows open Talos worship and freedom of speech in his city/hold. He's also a penant man, as this time around he's making damn sure the Empire agrees to *his* terms before allowing Imperial troops in his city or otherwise doing anything for the Empire. Because last time, TMII just forced the WGC on everyone and Skyrim Jarl's didn't have a say. Far as getting rid of Jarl Baalgruuf, Jarl B's replacement is a nice guy however... he's also very *family biased* and under his leadership, Whiterun in the end would certainly become another Markarth or Riften.

 

If per Hadvar's uncle this war is truly about the Elves screwing with people, then when word gets out about an Imperial High Elf Legate slaughtering Thalmor at North Watch Keep, freeing the prisoners and then... lighting the place on fire, people will start to see things differently. Especially once the Emperor resigns, I think these two events would be a fair price to pay for Skyrim to stay with the Empire. That takes care of the immediate problem with the Thalmor and justice is done with TMII resigning. I would also like to say, that, I think the Empire has brought out the best in Skyrim through the years and a Skyrim without the Empire is just as bad as a Tamriel without an Empire. It takes hard work to hold a family together, it's easy for folks to just give up and walk away like a spoiled child. Not to mention how the Thalmor want the Empire dead and tried to save Ulfric from being executed.

 

Another thing too, majority of the Empire's Legions are sitting on the border(s) between the Empire and the Dominion. This is what is meant when they say how the Empire is keeping the Dominion out of Skyrim. This is also the only reason why the Stormcloaks are still in business, not to mention the Thalor helping to fund their operation. So, what will happen is the Imperial Legions are going to keep getting sent to Skyrim to fight over Ulfric' uprising, even after Solitude is taken by the Stormcloaks. Empire won't make it without Skyrim. Cyrodil will fall to the Dominion and neither Ulfric or *anyone* in the new order up there will lift a finger otherwise because of the division brought from the civil war. Hammerfell won't help them either because of TMII throwing them to the wolves. And if Thalmor are funding the Stormcloaks, then they're prepared to benefit from anything Ulfric accomplishes.

 

WWII with the Thalmor is on it's way. Now, all we need in order to do away with this whole Talos business is for the Thalmor to declare war on the Empire. Let them to break the treaty and from the sound of things, esp after my conversation with Ondolemir, this is something that's either underway already or getting ready to occur. Thalmor are very prideful and they're getting ready for war. Based on the Thalmor Dossiers, Thalmor are confident they will have a better chance of victory with the Empire out of the way. So we're not wrong. Not about this at least because the Thalmor have already won the argument. They want the Empire out of the way. End of story. Another thing, many still refer to the Emperor as the "Emperor of Tamriel" so, if this is true, then there is a good chance of the Empire being "born again" once TMII leaves office and Ulfric is stopped. Even Gen Tullius acts differently after the civil war.

 

 

LONG LIVE THE EMPIRE OF TALOS!!!

Edited December 22, 2012 by bigmagy1981

[Gabryal]

@streetmonkey247

 

That was a pretty nice analysis of how the Skyrim Jarls are like politically. End of the day... hell beginning of the day :) I think I will stay Empire. Or more specfically, I'm on the side of Whiterun. It's a nice city and Jarl Baalgruf is the man! He really seems to care about his people and I'm even more impressed at the fact he allows open Talos worship and freedom of speech in his city/hold. He's also a penant man, as this time around he's making damn sure the Empire agrees to *his* terms before allowing Imperial troops in his city or otherwise doing anything for the Empire. Because last time, TMII just forced the WGC on everyone and Skyrim Jarl's didn't have a say. Far as getting rid of Jarl Baalgruuf, Jarl B's replacement is a nice guy however... he's also very *family biased* and under his leadership, Whiterun in the end would certainly become another Markarth or Riften.

 

If per Hadvar's uncle this war is truly about the Elves screwing with people, then when word gets out about an Imperial High Elf Legate slaughtering Thalmor at North Watch Keep, freeing the prisoners and then... lighting the place on fire, people will start to see things differently. Especially once the Emperor resigns, I think these two events would be a fair price to pay for Skyrim to stay with the Empire. That takes care of the immediate problem with the Thalmor and justice is done with TMII resigning. I would also like to say, that, I think the Empire has brought out the best in Skyrim through the years and a Skyrim without the Empire is just as bad as a Tamriel without an Empire. It takes hard work to hold a family together, it's easy for folks to just give up and walk away like a spoiled child. Not to mention how the Thalmor want the Empire dead and tried to save Ulfric from being executed.

 

Another thing too, majority of the Empire's Legions are sitting on the border(s) between the Empire and the Dominion. This is what is meant when they say how the Empire is keeping the Dominion out of Skyrim. This is also the only reason why the Stormcloaks are still in business, not to mention the Thalor helping to fund their operation. So, what will happen is the Imperial Legions are going to keep getting sent to Skyrim to fight over Ulfric' uprising, even after Solitude is taken by the Stormcloaks. Empire won't make it without Skyrim. Cyrodil will fall to the Dominion and neither Ulfric or *anyone* in the new order up there will lift a finger otherwise because of the division brought from the civil war. Hammerfell won't help them either because of TMII throwing them to the wolves. And if Thalmor are funding the Stormcloaks, then they're prepared to benefit from anything Ulfric accomplishes.

 

WWII with the Thalmor is on it's way. Now, all we need in order to do away with this whole Talos business is for the Thalmor to declare war on the Empire. Let them to break the treaty and from the sound of things, esp after my conversation with Ondolemir, this is something that's either underway already or getting ready to occur. Thalmor are very prideful and they're getting ready for war. Based on the Thalmor Dossiers, Thalmor are confident they will have a better chance of victory with the Empire out of the way. So we're not wrong. Not about this at least because the Thalmor have already won the argument. They want the Empire out of the way. End of story. Another thing, many still refer to the Emperor as the "Emperor of Tamriel" so, if this is true, then there is a good chance of the Empire being "born again" once TMII leaves office and Ulfric is stopped. Even Gen Tullius acts differently after the civil war.

 

 

LONG LIVE THE EMPIRE OF TALOS!!!

 

All I can say is every argument I've made up until this point still applies, I'll side with the Stormcloaks for all the reasons I've given before, and I'm pretty dead set in it. I just don't see any justification whatsoever for the Empire to continue, especially if you consider that no matter who wins in the Civil War in Skyrim, that Skyrim will lose. They were devastated in the Great War, without Hammerfell to back them up they'll be so again. The way I see it is really that 10 years from now, unless by some miracle an Empire weakened by the lose of Hammerfell, a third of it's Legions, and whatever the toll this war is going to take on the Empire as a whole if Skyrim remains in it, can defeat the Dominion which has only grown stronger in the time that the Empire has grown weaker, that Skyrim will either belong to the Nords or the Dominion, but certainly not to the Empire. So if the Empire wins Skyrim suffers occupation from the Dominion as I see it ( as it did so before in the Great War, same as Hammerfell, that's how the Stormcloaks started afterall was as a resistance to Dominion Occupation ) if the Empire loses, then perhaps it suffers the same, perhaps not.

 

One thing that the Dominion definitely learned in the last war was that you can't leave the Empire out of the Fight, and you can't fight the Imperial Provinces ( or former ones such as Hammerfell ) at the same time. Ironically it seems that the reason the Empire survived has much less to do with signing the WGC and much more to do with the fact that the Dominion had it's hands full for five full years -after- the signing of the WGC fighting Hammerfell alone. The Empire it seems cannot survive on it's own, Hammerfell it seemed could, and I hold onto the belief that Skyrim on it's own could do the exact same thing ( as far as Internal politics, Jarls, etc goes look up what Hammerfell's internal Government is like, jesus it makes Skyrim look neat and tidy with anyone who has the option to be a Jarl as more Qualified than any leader in Hammerfell ) all that of course is an aside, what it all amounted to in the end was that for 5 years Hammerfell made a stand alone and won. The Empire fought a 3 year war, with the help of Hammerfell and Skyrim, and lost. That's pretty pathetic honestly, and very poor martial ability on the part of the administration of the Military.

 

All that of course is meaningless to me, who can beat the Thalmor may be academic at this point. For all we know the damage of the WGC will never be undone and the Empire will die no matter what, such things aren't addressed in the game. Perhaps it's only a matter of time till man is enslaved again by mer, again no way to know. I do know that the ban on Talos worship the Empire will never recover from ( something like how Catholicism never recovered in England after Henry VIII formed the Church of England ) and that alone is so awful as to leave me disgusted. Tiber Septim so dishonored makes me gag.

 

That's just the one thing, and I've made plenty of analogies to the others. The question always remains in the end " What -kind- of Country is the best type in this situation, not strongest, but most moral " in this there is no question. The Empire has failed the right of nations to exist in my mind, and I've given plenty of examples as to why. Skyrim hasn't failed, yet, so the Stormcloaks should get their chance.

 

Or if that isn't enough for people, just think about what dicks we in the USA were to the British Empire when we decided that -they- had failed the right to govern us, and the war we fought against them ( less effectively than the Stormcloaks I might add, and more brutal, cruel, and dishonorable. Don't read the text books kids, find a real history book ) we decided that a 2% tax increase was enough to tell the British Empire that they had lost the consent of us to be governed by them.

 

Then consider that the Empire has done about 10,000 times worse.

 

I know it's a new analogy but the ones I'm using over and over just don't seem to be sticking, even if they are correct.

[StormHammer81]

Yep, the Empire has failed us. :) Hmmm. Technically, the Empire didn't fail. TMII as you said, lost his nerve. The Empire Destroyed the Thalmor's main army and it shouldn't have stopped there. What they *should* have done was kept up the march and run up the score on the Thalmor as much as possible. TMII failed. Empire did admirably up until TMII quit fighting and again, as you said "May I have another"?

 

I will freely concede this point... The only real hope for the Empire in Skyrim is to get rid of TMII and do as much as possible to undo his policies. There are plenty of good Imperials left who want this. They want change and they want to take the fight to the Thalmor. Once TMII is no more, it's just the Empire. The Imperials are too clingy, they revere the Emperor which in *this case* is certainly not healthy. Because this Emperor, TMII is like sucking on a rotten egg.

 

Truly, the Stormcloaks will set Skyrim "free" but this is by all indications, only short lived and it's not true freedom after all because they are followers of Ulfric and Ulfric's vision is a Skyrim for the Nords FIRST. There are also a few times where he talks down about the Greybeards and threatens other Talos followers, although in the end, Talos is restored to Skyrim pantheon of the Gods. Some good does come from the Stormcloak rebellion.

 

For my part, I don't need the "church" to give me their blessing to worship or not to worship God. This can go either way with this Civil War and the "church" is behind Heimskr in Whiterun. Yes it is. Because Jarl Baalgruf allows freedom of Talos worship, he allows freedom of speech. And they pick his city to spread their propaganda? That's not right. Whiterun is not the problem, neither is the Jarl Baalgruf. The "church" wants power thru the Stormcloak rebellion, as they go to build a giant temple to Talos and Heimskr is the high priest after the war. And Whiterun is the only place they can spew their sh*t, even if it's to the detriment of Whiterun itself which is a free city.

 

I am not really in favor of the Empire. Nor am I necessarily against the Stormcloak. I am on the side of Whiterun and I stand by the Jarl Baalgruf. I think anyone who threatens the Jarl or wants to rape and pillage his city is a murderer and is not to be trusted. Ever. Think about it. The only Imperialish (Not really) Jarl in Skyrim to take nobody's side and to STAND UP against the WGC, allowing Freedom of Religion and Freedom of Speech is going to be removed from office because he does not get down on his hands and knees and follow Ulfric Stormcloak. There is no need really, to attack Whiterun. They could get a writ of passage and just settle it that way. Ulfric attacks Whiterun because he wants POWER. No. other. reason. other. than. that. Like when Ulfric shouted down (murdered) High King Torygg (The True High King of Skyrim).

 

Another thing, even when Ulfric *challenges* Jarl B, he doesn't even bother to SHOW UP to the duel. Why should I follows Ulfric again? So, it's perfectly alright to shout down a little teenager/young man who *trusts you* who *admires you* who *looks up to you* but when it finally comes time to stand up and fight a real man who can take Ulfric out, what does Ulfric do? He hides behind the walls of his castle and sends the *army* to fight for him. Against the city. Many, many, lives could have been spared if Ulfric would have just fought Jarl B in the duel HIMSELF. That would have settled it, that would have ended it, far as Whiterun is concerned. Would have been a fair duel and would have proven Ulfric's greatness. You can call me crazy but I'm seeing some things in common between TMII and Ulfric Stormcloak.

 

Which is why I decided to no longer be a Stormcloak and which is why I'm making same decision now. If we want freedom of religion and speech and all that gay stuff, then why attack one of the only Jarl's in Skyrim who has the courage and love for his own people to still allow these things in his city? And still have the integrity to take NOBODY'S side and instead, side with his people? Stormcloak are different because they *follow* Ulfric. Yeah, they're charismatic whereas Jarl B is more philosophically minded. It's philosophy (Jarl B) va ideology (Ulfric). Savy? Jarl B, is not a follower. And neither am I.

 

 

LONG LIVE THE EMPIRE!!!

Edited December 22, 2012 by bigmagy1981

[Gabryal]

I do see your point, but the good of Skyrim cannot hinge on any one man, and Balgruuf for all his intelligence, cannot stop the Thalmor. The difference between the Dominion and the Empire is still what I said. They've had ten years to rebuild and grow stronger. The Empire hasn't, and yes that's TMII's fault, but once it's broken it's broken. TMII will go down as the worst Emperor in history I'm sure, but he'll also go down as the last.

 

The question still remains as to who will run Skyrim, the Dominion or the Nords, because the Empire won't hold onto it either way, even if I do agree that Balgruuf would by far be the better High King ( I still wish Torygg had survived personally ), the Dominion doesn't have the problems the Empire has and doesn't have the internal or external problems that the Empire has. It's just as simple as that, the underlying reality is that the Empire died when Hammerfell was able to do what TMII couldn't, namely prove that the Dominion isn't all powerful.

 

I've gone over it all before, and dissecting individual personalities of individual people in what is really is a non-issue ( 300 years from now it won't matter who defeated the Dominion, only that the Dominion is defeated ). One thing is absolutely certain however and that's that anyone in the game would be a better leader than TMII.

 

If Ulfric can do it then so be it, and Balgruuf didn't have to sign on with the Empire but he did ( over of all things a childhood rivalry with Ulfric ) and that's the way the chips fall really. I suppose there is the third option that I've not thought of, but is a possibility. The Empire survives for another 10 years ( the empire wins in Skyrim ) then the Dominion attack again, Skyrim is occupied again, and a better leader than Ulfric stands up for Skyrim and fights them off, again. No matter what though, the Empire will lose Skyrim, it's only a matter of how, when, and why.