The Great Imperial vs. Stormcloak Debate

[StormHammer81]

I guess I'm a "soft-touch" :)

 

As long as there is a chance in hell of saving the Empire and making things right, I'm going to stand and fight. You can run off and follow Ulfric or the local Warlord or whoever.

 

The only reason the Empire would die is if Skyrim seceded. That's it. Then it would truly be dead. All I know is. this is what the Thalmor want. Fury is their craft remember? Or "our" craft because ever since Oblivion, I've played an High Elf or Orc. The Empire must still be pretty powerful because the Great and Superior Dominion cannot take on the Empire even in it's current state. :) Again, this is why they need Ulfric. This is why I don't trust him or believe anything he says really. When the Thalmor show up to save you at your execution, I think that says a lot. At this point, the Thalmor are probably strong enough to conquer Cyrodil which is what they're after. Don't you see? That's how this little game works. They want Cyrodil. Also, it's worth noting there are "secret purges" going on throughout the Dominion, so the Dominion is not one big happy family either, that is not correct. ie... Night of Green fire and some of the other dialogue during the main quest.

 

 

LONG LIVE THE EMPIRE!!!

[Gabryal]

I guess I'm a "soft-touch" :)

 

As long as there is a chance in hell of saving the Empire and making things right, I'm going to stand and fight. You can run off and follow Ulfric or the local Warlord or whoever.

 

The only reason the Empire would die is if Skyrim seceded. That's it. Then it would truly be dead. All I know is. this is what the Thalmor want. Fury is their craft remember? Or "our" craft because ever since Oblivion, I've played an High Elf or Orc. The Empire must still be pretty powerful because the Great and Superior Dominion cannot take on the Empire even in it's current state. :) Again, this is why they need Ulfric. This is why I don't trust him or believe anything he says really. When the Thalmor show up to save you at your execution, I think that says a lot. At this point, the Thalmor are probably strong enough to conquer Cyrodil which is what they're after. Don't you see? That's how this little game works. They want Cyrodil. Also, it's worth noting there are "secret purges" going on throughout the Dominion, so the Dominion is not one big happy family either, that is not correct. ie... Night of Green fire and some of the other dialogue during the main quest.

 

 

LONG LIVE THE EMPIRE!!!

 

All true, but I stick to my analogies. The Empire of today has become so atrocious as to no longer to deserve to exist. Some things aren't forgivable, and the actions of the reign of TMII has broken any respectability the Empire has had ( see all my analogies, I've made a helluva a lot of them ). Now in a perfect world the following would exist, and it would be the perfect thing. TMII is overthrown as a gesture to Skyrim, the WGC would be torn to shreds, and a crusade of utter annihilation against the Thalmor control'd Dominion be waged. The war to decide it all, immediately, and with zero falter. Every single thing that Ulfric wants to happen, short of making him High King ( I'd love to have them give the crown to Balgruuf, since Torygg is dead ) and of course short of the annhiliation of the various people he wants to destroy ( offer Amnesty to any Forsworn who will take up arms under Imperial Banners ) and announce to Skyrim that every member of the Stormcloak who is willing to swear loyalty to Skyrim as a province of the Empire be granted Amnesty and welcomed back as a full member without prejudice into the fighting forces of the " new " empire with a certain degree of self rule ( put Skyrim Legions directly under the command of the High King for example ). Make the same offer to Hammerfell, and then launch the crusade, for good or for ill, against the Thalmor. I'd support the Empire in a heartbeat then. Don't think for a second that I like Ulfric, or think he's the best man for the job, I just think the situation is so screwed up that without radical change the Empire won't be able to stand against the Dominion ( Remember the purges were in fact purges. The brutality that they were put down shows that the Thalmor still have a pretty firm grip on the government )

 

I really think in the end it's a choice between two really bad choices. If guarantees were made to Skyrim ( the one I'd hope for most is the signing into law that the official HIGH deity of the Empire be Talos ) then all this would be over, all the wind out of Ulfric's sails, and let him fester away in bitterness.

 

That would be what I'd prefer, and if I thought it would happen I would side with the Empire.

 

I just can't get over how atrocious the actions of the Empire ( well TMII ) were when he signed the WGC. The war should have been fought till the bitter end, because at that particular moment and only then, did the Empire and Dominion have similarly balanced forces. Now the scales are definitely in the Dominions favor. I honestly have no idea how it will all play out in the end, but I see the whole game of Skyrim through a semi-pessimistic point of view politically, and really the only true hope is for the Dragonborn to make his stand.

 

I made the statement once that Ulfric isn't as bad as he could be, and that TMII is so much worse than he should be. No one argues that, the problem has always been how do you undo the damage that TMII caused? That I don't see how to do ( except by the above ). The civil war doesn't have to be, if the Empire gave terms to Skyrim half as well as they gave terms to the Dominion then it would be over very quickly. The Nords, as Aldvar said, are not " fair weather friends " but the weather is beyond what anyone should be expected to bear. That being said I understand your opinion, I just can't agree with it under the context of the game. ( I'm also not of the opinion that Balgruuf's replacement is worse than Balgruuf himself, they both seem to be men of honor who put Skyrim first, they just differ on how to do it ).

 

Anyway, Politics aside, I can't side with an Empire that has done and is doing what it's doing. You can't treat your subjects worse than your enemies. It just sits so sour in my mouth. And I'll be loyal to Tiber Septim before the Empire every time, I owe the Septim's that, and the Empire of today simply hasn't shown them the loyalty that they should. ( In HF remember too that they finally introduced a Redguard Housecarl, so it's not -completely- racist I guess... )

 

Oh well, I'd love to support the Empire, I'd love to end the Rebellion... but only if the Empire returned to the Empire I have loved for so long. As long as it's horrendous I can't morally justify joining their side.

[Nintii]

I have been playing Skyrim for a fair while by now and have had quite some time to ponder this question of

Imperial vs Stormcloack ...

 

Previously my heart had gone out for those who had felt oppressed by the Imperials and sought liberation

at the hands of the Stormcloacks ... Unfortunately all that has changed now.

 

What changed my mind ?

 

Quite simply this ... it's the company they keep ... it's not them per se but rather the rotten, scheming and

conniving Black-Briars of Riften and Silver-Bloods of Markarth.

 

I quite simply cannot support (yes I know it's just a game), a faction that allies themselves with such morally

corrupt individuals who would rise to positions of power and then in turn suppress those in their cities under them.

 

There is no doubt in my mind that their rise to total authority as Jarls in their respective cities would cause them to dig

their dirty heels even further into the very fabric of their cities.

If they are currently employing all manner of underhanded methods to secretly undermine the present leadership of

the cities in which they now live what do you think they will do once they come into power ?

Any attempt at dissension or opposition to their authority would be met with brutality and death to be sure.

 

The present "light affliction" the peoples of Riften and Markarth are currently experiencing at the hands of the Imperials

which is the mere worship of a deity, will be absolutely nothing in comparison to the to swift and very violent retribution

they would face from their new masters.

 

This means that the peoples of their cities would not be exchanging a yoke of bondage for one liberation under their rule,

but rather a far weightier chain of oppression.

 

Therefore, my decision to rather support the Imperials.

[Jitansgate]

I Support the Imperials, but I don't support The Aldmeri Dominion.

 

Without the Imperials keeping The Aldimari Dominion at bay Skyrim and the Rest of the other Proveniences would be Overran with Thalmor Troops. Lets face it The Main Villain in Skyrim and probably the future Elder Scrolls games is the Thalmor, and The Imperials are The Barricade keeping the Thalmor out, but of course there are a Few Thalmor mostly Overseers that make sure everything is going to plan.

 

But if Ulfric becomes King then there is nobody Preventing the War between Skyrim and Aldimari Dominion it will be a Big Bloody War and a lot of Innocent People are going to Die.

Edited December 23, 2012 by Jitansgate

[Gabryal]

I think I may know to much about the lore of this game for it to be healthy for me to read this thread regularly.

 

I don't know how much more clearly I can make my points but it seems that they aren't really read, or understood. Nothing is as black and white as what it appears, and the question still boils down to which side is moral and which side isn't.

 

For that you have to know the history that led up to this mess.

 

I just find it frustrating to hear Hadvar's opening lines be given as the reason to join the Imperials, or hear about this Jarl or that Jarl, or hear about " Ulfric did this or the Imperials did that " or whatever in the game.

 

The game itself is mostly meaningless, the side you choose to join ( if you do ) really doesn't matter because you'll play it out till the end and on either side you'll receive a relatively satisfactory outcome ( unless you meet Ulfric in Sovengarde, but that's the only thing that really changes based on which side you choose ). In short for the story of the Dragonborn aka " The Game " is only the very end of a story. What people aren't talking about and should be in my opinion, is how we got here, and what's likely to happen after. The game itself is the least relevant reason to join one side or the other, no matter how strange it is to think that way. The real consequences of your decisions in the game, won't be felt for a decade or more, and that's what's truly important.

 

I personally would love to think the Empire can be saved, I simply can't. The absolute disgust of what they have done before the game even started makes my skin crawl. I just remember the last words said to you by Uriel Septim in Oblivion, and Martin's last stand, and all that once was and I just simply cannot believe that it's come to this.

 

I'll say it again though, Ulfric is not my first choice for High King, honestly if I could have picked anyone mentioned in the game who could have been, I'd bring Torygg back to life. After that would come Balgruuf, Ulfric would be around 4th or 5th, but you don't get to choose that do you? So you work with what you work with.

 

I'm not trying to persuade anyone at this point, my previous posts, if anyone ever bothers to read them ( and bigmagy's excellent rebuttals ) say everything I have ever ment to say and more.

 

I just wish that before people posted they could properly answer the following questions.

 

Why did Hammerfell Secede from the Empire?

 

What is the White-Gold Concordant and what does it say?

 

Why and when were the Stormcloaks formed?

 

What is another name for Talos, and why is it significant?

 

What areas of the World does the Aldmeri Dominion control?

 

I shouldn't care but I do, if this is going to be a vote I'd like it to be an informed one, instead it feels like American Idol, or worse the Presidential Elections

[StormHammer81]

Why did Hammerfell Secede from the Empire?

 

Because Hammerfell didn't want to go along with the White Gold Concordant (WGC), which was signed by Titus Mede II. The WGC would have basically signed over the southern half of Hammerfell to the Dominion. However, Jarl Baalgruf, Rikke and several other Imperials will either tell you or elude you to the fact that it was a treaty which most of the Empire didn't want. Titus Mede II decided for everyone and no one else had a say in signing it for the Empire.

 

What is the White-Gold Concordant and what does it say?

 

I'll leave it for them to look-up.

 

Why and when were the Stormcloaks formed?

 

Stormcloaks were formed after the Markarth incident because Ulfric was betrayed by the Jarl Ingman. At Markarth, after Ulfric purged Markarth of Forsworn for the Jarl, the Thalmor found out about the "under-the table deal" Jarl and Ulfric had going on and had Ulfric arrested. This is officially how the Stormcloak rebellion came to be. *However* while this is true, the Stormcloaks were *actually* formed much earlier as Ulfric' private militia for the advancement of his agenda, whatever that may be at whatever time. Markarth made the Stormcloak's legite, as they shifted from Ulfric' personal task force to his 'Skyrim Liberation Army".

 

Personal note ~ I find it so very odd that Ulfric would just ask for Talos worship to be restored to just the reach. Esp when his capital, Windhelm is basically on the moon compared to the two. I find that whole thing very odd. Keep in mind, according to the Dossier, Thalmor and Ulfric *were communicating* between the time he was "let go" and the up to the Markarth "incident". I think Ulfric knew that while the Jarl would say whatever to get revenge and his throne back, the Empire would have never accepted the city back into the Empire under those conditions. The deal was made between Jarl Ingman and Ulfric because the Forsworn killed the Jarl's father during their takeover event. It was the perfect trap and several parties benefited from what happened.

 

What is another name for Talos, and why is it significant?

 

Tiber Septim, first Emperor. Although there were actually a few others before him. It was he who built the Empire as we know... err as we knew it. :)

 

What areas of the World does the Aldmeri Dominion control?

 

Summerset Isles, Valenwood, to what extent they control Elsewyr is unknown. It is my understanding the Empire was able to recover the whole of Cyrodil from the WGC, which is important because while the main Thalmor army was annhilated, they still had a strong foothold in Cyrodil.

 

For most people it basically comes down to this. Either you:

 

1) Take the road of vengeance against the Empire for what has transpired and work with Ulfric to build Skyrim into a new country, supposedly independent.

 

OR

 

2) You fight to save the Empire which Talos built and work against Titus Mede II and Ulfric to restore the Empire back to what she was before.

 

Please understand, if you take option #1, the division wrought by both the WGC and by Ulfric's victory in Skyrim will be a lasting division. The Empire will be dead and she will likely never return. Everyone will inevitably be locked in independent kingdoms and Cyrodil will probably be the first one the Thalmor go after, as they are the weakest from the war... but that's their problem now. Talos worship will be restored and the Empire and Thalmor will be gone... for now :) So, Skyrim will begin a new chapter and be "liberated" from Imperial authority.

 

If you take option #2, you will join the Imperial Legion and fight to make the Empire whole again. You will have to live with some of the guilt from the WGC because your Emperor signed it. Now, you also have the option to not live with the guilt forever and force Titus Mede II to resign. Either way, the end result will be Empire saved for the time being and with TMII gone the door will be open for change, starting at the top. Talos worship is not yet restored however Tullius hints that war with the Thalmor is on the way.

 

 

Whew! Ok, I'm done. Choose wisely, Talos Bless, Merry Christmas and a happy new year to all!!!

Edited December 24, 2012 by bigmagy1981

[Gabryal]

Damnit Big, I was hoping the other people would look it up :P

 

You did leave out something pretty significant though, after the Markath incident TMII authorized the Stormcloaks to wage a guerilla war against the Occupied Skyrim ( while the Skyrim Legions were marching south to save Cyrodil ) which makes them slightly more than just Ulfric's personal Army. TMII gave Ulfric that power, not anyone else. If Ulfric's Stormcloaks are a mess and rebels now, they weren't always. They were created by Imperial Decree.

 

I stand by that the Empire as it exists today isn't worth saving. Any Nation anywhere ( including in reality ) that would sign the WGC would be my personal enemy till the day I died. The ban on Talos worship alone galls me ( I love the Septims too much to dishonor their memory. I remember just how damn 3 dimensional, passionate, brave, and humble Martin was. He literally is by far my favorite TES character )

 

So yes, I am for breaking the Empire. Destroying it completely, and let the chips fall where they may. I have faith in man, I have faith in it's ability to survive the worst of conditions. If slavery is their future then they rose up once, and can do so again. I don't think that will be the case though, I think man has come to far, I think they will fight till the end whatever that may be. Hammerfell proved they could do it, Skyrim could too I have to believe, even Cyrodil once they get rid of TMII could do so ( I remember how hard the troops of Anvil fought the Daedra for example ) the point is that the Empire needs to be shattered, and perhaps then it can be reformed. Like a broken sword reheated and reforged stronger than it ever was.

 

It does no good to continue to slash away with a blunted and weakened sword until it breaks when it is most needed. The time of this Empire is done ( and it need not be the -last- Empire, the Septim's forged the 3rd Empire of man I believe, I could be wrong ) I'm just saying that the current Empire must be broken for any chance of man to rebuild itself into what once was, and what I hope may be again.

 

I can never submit to an Empire that would sign the WGC, the very fact that the Legions didn't rebel amazes me. What happened to the fighting men who I watched die beside me when I played Oblivion?

 

I believe their souls still exist, that Talos guides them still in some hidden recess of their hearts, and I think in the darkest of times, when the will of the mighty falter, when the corrupt rule, and when the old institutions develop decay and rot away, that leaves room for a new institution, and new future.

 

That's what I fight for, an end to -this- Empire, and a better future for men. The Dominion will fall, because the one thing that always destroys those who oppress is one thing and one thing only. Hubris. They believe they can't fail, and so they have no plan for failure.

 

It's what's happening to the Empire now ( imho ) and honestly if you listen to General Titus ( isn't that who it is? ) you hear it, Hubris. He has no doubts he will win, and sees it all as a minor inconvenience. It's only Rikke who is truly concerned, for she lacks Hubris. How the might fall, and honestly they must fall.

 

So the Empire as it exists today will fall, one way or another, because of Hubris, and the same will happen to the Dominion.

 

The real question for me has always been, will I speed the fall of -this- Empire which will no matter what, and honestly needs to for the sake of all men everywhere? Or will I help prop it up just a little longer. In the end the Dominion will strike, their goal has never been secret. The extermination and/or enslavement of mankind once more. The Thalmor will never deviate from that goal. So why help them by propping up a institution that only weighs down the inevitible, that only hurts mankinds chances in the long run? That's how I see it.

 

All my analogies still stand, I always encourage people to go back and read them and ask themselves " Where is he mistaken if he is? " and " What would I feel if in an alternate Earth that had happened? " When I lift my sword and bow and hand to unleash magic against the Imperial forces in Skyrim. I do so in the name of Tiber Septim, of Uriel Septim who placed such faith in me, and in Martin Septim who gave his life for his people. Who knew how to love his people more than any institution, whether it be the crown or the Empire.

 

I lift my hand for an idea. Not for Ulfric, but against tyranny, whether that Tyranny is -this- Empire or the Dominion, or anything that forces men to their knees.

 

I lift my hand in the name of Glory to what was, and because I think it is the only way that such ideas will be again.

[StormHammer81]

Well, saying the Empire will fall and there is no other way it could possible turn out is for-gone conclusion. Of course, there is nothing which says how well an independent Skyrim will work out either. Hammerfell was different, Skyrim will still probably be even more divided once the Empire leaves.

 

We will just have to wait and see. I still have faith in the Empire, just not in TMII or his Administration.

 

To be 100% honest ~ I was VERY SERIOUSLY considering renouncing the Empire and fully committing myself to the Stormcloaks. Until this happened...

 

Stormcloak #1: "Screw you Orc, Skyrim belongs to the Nords."

 

Stormcloak#2: "Your city of Narzulbur is an affront to my people Orc."

 

Coward#1 (Galmar's brother): "We should dig a big pit, throw the Dark Elves and Argonians in it and let them eat each other."

 

Same Coward who shortly thereafter received an Orc bashing to the face in Windhelm: "Get out of my city you filthy piece of Trash."

 

The difference here is the Empire's problems are TEMPORARY. The Stormcloak's problems are within their cause.

 

So from that moment onward (Stormcloak#1) I was a born-again citizen of the Empire. A true son of the Empire and I will do EVERYTHING in my power to save the EMPIRE and to free EVERY CITIZEN of the Empire from their bondage, Nords included. By taking an oath to join the Legion, you swear allegiance to EVERY citizen in the Empire. Not just one man. I find the Imperial oath to be quite beautiful (Once TMII is gone the oath is proper).

 

But we do need a new Emperor. This is fact and this is our weakness. Whoever replaces TMII had better know what he's doing. Annnndddd now I'm done because I have finally figured out whose side I'm on, and coming here everyday is not healthy :)

 

 

LONG LIVE THE EMPIRE!!!

Edited December 25, 2012 by bigmagy1981

[Gabryal]

Well, saying the Empire will fall and there is no other way it could possible turn out is for-gone conclusion. Of course, there is nothing which says how well an independent Skyrim will work out either. Hammerfell was different, Skyrim will still probably be even more divided once the Empire leaves.

 

We will just have to wait and see. I still have faith in the Empire, just not in TMII or his Administration.

 

To be 100% honest ~ I was VERY SERIOUSLY considering renouncing the Empire and fully committing myself to the Stormcloaks. Until this happened...

 

Stormcloak #1: "Screw you Orc, Skyrim belongs to the Nords."

 

Stormcloak#2: "Your city of Narzulbur is an affront to my people Orc."

 

Coward#1 (Galmar's brother): "We should dig a big pit, throw the Dark Elves and Argonians in it and let them eat each other."

 

Same Coward who shortly thereafter received an Orc bashing to the face in Windhelm: "Get out of my city you filthy piece of Trash."

 

The difference here is the Empire's problems are TEMPORARY. The Stormcloak's problems are within their cause.

 

So from that moment onward (Stormcloak#1) I was a born-again citizen of the Empire. A true son of the Empire and I will do EVERYTHING in my power to save the EMPIRE and to free EVERY CITIZEN of the Empire from their bondage, Nords included. By taking an oath to join the Legion, you swear allegiance to EVERY citizen in the Empire. Not just one man. I find the Imperial oath to be quite beautiful (Once TMII is gone the oath is proper).

 

But we do need a new Emperor. This is fact and this is our weakness. Whoever replaces TMII had better know what he's doing. Annnndddd now I'm done because I have finally figured out whose side I'm on, and coming here everyday is not healthy :)

 

 

LONG LIVE THE EMPIRE!!!

 

Understandable, but I hold that the Empire in it's current Incarnation will fall, as far as Skyrim belonging to the Nords, well if it belongs to anyone it does belong to them. If some idiots are racist towards anyone they are either bitter, stupid, or both. That's true anywhere though ( I doubt you wouldn't find some Orc's acting the same way towards other races in a similar situation ) all that being said. The Empire -is- doomed and Skyrim -might- be.

 

In fact more than the Empire is doomed I'm hoping it dies. It needs to so it can be reborn. I also said before that Hammerfell is as big a mess, if not more, than Skyrim is ( check out it's politics dear god they are nuts ) and it still managed to throw the Dominion shackles off. What could be is more important than what is at this point.

 

I always keep on pointing out that what happens in the game is of little consequence when compared to the before, and the after. The game is just the focal point where what will happen to Skyrim is decided. What happens after the game, and what happened before it is what focuses my mind. I don't defend idiots, or even Ulfric, what I defend is the right to rebel ( in whatever form ) and the right to destroy that which is worth destroying ( at this point both the Empire in it's current form and the Dominion ) that being said I do understand why people side with the Empire. I just disagree.

 

Cheers :)

[StormHammer81]

Sounds fair. I have no doubt this Empire will eventually die, I'm all for that. I just think if Ulfric gets his way, the Empire will never be "reborn". The Skyrim Stormcloak Jarls would never allow it to come back. I mentioned the Orc comments because it just astounds me how some people, they feel that... they must own everything. Nothing is ever enough.

 

You know, this is a very unforgiving game engine. I started out with RAS and ended up in an Orc camp, then the game glitched out the first time with a wolf attacking me, the battle music wouldn't stop playing and the Orc camp intro refused to start. Then on the second reload, I steal one or two minor accessories and then the bandit avengers poor into the camp and slaughter everyone. Geez.

Edited December 26, 2012 by bigmagy1981