The Great Imperial vs. Stormcloak Debate

[Gabryal]

Sounds fair. I have no doubt this Empire will eventually die, I'm all for that. I just think if Ulfric gets his way, the Empire will never be "reborn". The Skyrim Stormcloak Jarls would never allow it to come back. I mentioned the Orc comments because it just astounds me how some people, they feel that... they must own everything. Nothing is ever enough. The Nords have plenty of land and yet they want more.

 

It's a helluva a lot easier to change a High King in Skyrim than it is an Emperor, aside from that I am relying on hope of a better world, not a guarantee. I do think that the current incarnation of the empire is a guarantee loser for everyone, not just Nords. ( except of course the Dominion )

[Zaknafein415]

Sounds fair. I have no doubt this Empire will eventually die, I'm all for that. I just think if Ulfric gets his way, the Empire will never be "reborn". The Skyrim Stormcloak Jarls would never allow it to come back. I mentioned the Orc comments because it just astounds me how some people, they feel that... they must own everything. Nothing is ever enough. The Nords have plenty of land and yet they want more.

 

It's a helluva a lot easier to change a High King in Skyrim than it is an Emperor, aside from that I am relying on hope of a better world, not a guarantee. I do think that the current incarnation of the empire is a guarantee loser for everyone, not just Nords. ( except of course the Dominion )

 

 

I have read this entire thread, and especially your posts. I agree with you wholeheartedly. I side with the storm cloaks every time, and I have since the game came out.

 

There are just a couple things I would like to add.

1) Comparatively to Hammerfell, Skyrim is a much more defensible nation. If Hammerfell was able to push the Aldmeri Dominion out, then Skyrim is much more likely to do so. Skyrim is surrounded by mountains and oceans , with the land routes being easily defensible choke points.

 

2) Thus far, the Aldmeri Dominion has been unable to secure a single province through force of arms. They instigated a coup in Valenwood, used the disappearance of the moons to trick Elsweyr, failed to crush the Empire, and were pushed out of Hammerfell by a token resistance. What makes anyone think that the Dominion can invade the most well defended, and militaristic province in Tamriel? The Nords hate the Dominion, trust me, there won't be a coup in Skyrim.

 

3) Any nation that desires independence and freedom from another institution inherently deserves that right. Freedom to rule oneself is a justified cause. Especially when the Empire does not have the best interests of its people in mind. To me, this is just taxation without representation in another form, albeit 100x worse ( banning the worship of a Jesus equivalent, lol good luck with that).

 

4) Many people may not like Ulffric, but guess what? Reluctant leaders are bad leaders. I'd take a confident, proven, and honest leader like Ulfric over that slimebag TMII any day of the week. From the get go Ulfric makes it clear he desires the throne. Frankly, there aren't many people in Skyrim more qualified than him either.

 

5) Lastly, I think it would be a great idea to crush the Empire, conquer Cyrodiil, and start a new human made empire with the capitol in Skyrim. Doesn't make sense to have the seat of your nation bordering the enemy.

[StormHammer81]

1) Comparatively to Hammerfell, Skyrim is a much more defensible nation. If Hammerfell was able to push the Aldmeri Dominion out, then Skyrim is much more likely to do so. Skyrim is surrounded by mountains and oceans , with the land routes being easily defensible choke points.

 

Correct. It would be a super b*tch for the Thalmor to try and take over Skyrim. Hammerfell was a desert and the Thalmor couldn't win there. The most they could probably do is hold the coast but inland... not a chance in hell.

 

2) Thus far, the Aldmeri Dominion has been unable to secure a single province through force of arms. They instigated a coup in Valenwood, used the disappearance of the moons to trick Elsweyr, failed to crush the Empire, and were pushed out of Hammerfell by a token resistance. What makes anyone think that the Dominion can invade the most well defended, and militaristic province in Tamriel? The Nords hate the Dominion, trust me, there won't be a coup in Skyrim.

 

But there was already a coup in Skyrim. Ulfric was very much able to stage a coup, with Thalmor assistance at that. These are ELVES were talking about here, High Elves. We think in long terms.

 

3) Any nation that desires independence and freedom from another institution inherently deserves that right. Freedom to rule oneself is a justified cause. Especially when the Empire does not have the best interests of its people in mind. To me, this is just taxation without representation in another form, albeit 100x worse ( banning the worship of a Jesus equivalent, lol good luck with that).

 

Subjective. True the TMII does not have the people's best interests in mind, he's looking out for himself. However, the Legion does appear to have the people's best interests in mind. I agree, Freedom to rule oneself is a justified clause. But lemme ask you this, lemme ask you this... "Why should I trade one tyrant 3,000 miles away, for 3,000 tyrants one mile away?" No matter which way this goes, the people of Skyrim won't truly be free. Like when those former Legionares were threatened with Death by Skald in Dawnstar. Or the Stormcloak animosity towards non-Nords. Orcs lived in Skyrim *first*. Should they be kicked to the curb along with all non-Nords? A nationalist revolution can be just as oppressive as a damaged Empire.

 

4) Many people may not like Ulffric, but guess what? Reluctant leaders are bad leaders. I'd take a confident, proven, and honest leader like Ulfric over that slimebag TMII any day of the week. From the get go Ulfric makes it clear he desires the throne. Frankly, there aren't many people in Skyrim more qualified than him either.

 

Well, true I have been overly critical of Ulfric, I mean desperate times call for deperate measures. And true, had the Thalmor harassed my family and say they took away my father or best friend, I would never side with the Empire. However, Ulfric is also responsible for Thalmor activity in Skyrim because his Markarth incident gave them license to pillage the country. Although granted, it was a complex situation and there were many parties involved, even though that deal wasn't made specifically with the Empire, it was between Ulfric and the Jarl Ingman.

 

In regards to reluctancy, I believe you may be referring to "tact". A good leader must have "tact". This means, no doing things on the flip, because this makes you look dumb and leads to "flip-flopping". Rikke has tact and so does Tullius. I do not see any uhhh "Hubris" in the Imperial leadership. Just like with the ambush on Ulfric, everything the Empire does is cold and calculated. Just like me :) Ulfric and Galmar and pretty much the rest of them are too quick to let their personal feelings override critical thinking.

 

If nothing else, please give the Empire credit for that. We don't let our personal feelings override good judgement, however we don't just ignore them either. Although there is such a thing as time and place.

 

5) Lastly, I think it would be a great idea to crush the Empire, conquer Cyrodiil, and start a new human made empire with the capitol in Skyrim. Doesn't make sense to have the seat of your nation bordering the enemy.

 

Well, the Empire is already crushed it would be more like, he would crush Cyrodil. Difference is, the Thalmor would probably beat him to it. Now, the Empire's capitol should probably be changed even if it survives. Solitude would be a pretty good choice. The capitol is in Cyrodil by tradition, it's the site where the Ayleids were finally defeated once and for all by Pelinal. Which is why the Thalmor want Cyrodil soooo bad. You can say what you like, but whoever controls Cyrodil controls Tamriel. Never mind the nation of men... which was conceived at White Gold Tower by P Whitestrake's victory over Umaril, which sent the remaining Ayleids nations into chaos. Talos just forged an Empire out of what already was. Had P Whitestrake ( My Hero :D ) not fought the Ayleids, it would have been near impossible for Tiber Septim to do anything. Skyrim didn't step in and help the young nations of man until late in the game when Pelinal and Alyssa asked for it.

Edited December 26, 2012 by bigmagy1981

[Zaknafein415]

I don't want to go over the whole post, but I have a few things I would like to just go over.

 

1) Ulfrics involvement as an asset is, IMO, completely taken out of context. I'll quote the dossier; "Under interrogation, we learned of his potential value (son of the Jarl of Windhelm) and he was assigned as an asset to the interrogator, who is now First Emissary Elenwen." Ulfric being assigned to Elenwen as an asset simply means they believed he had valuable information, tactical or otherwise, they could extract from him. That doesn't mean he willingly cooperated or volunteered information. It also doesn't mean that he was a informant either. It just means they wanted to interrogate him for potential information.

 

"After the war, contact was established and he has proven his worth as an asset." - again, and I know many think this damning, but this is just lingo meaning that Ulfric was seen again after the war. It doesn't have anything to do with Ulfric cooperating. It just means whatever intelligence they got from him was beneficial. Most likely, intelligence garnered during the war. Again though, he was imprisoned a second time after the Markarth Incident. They likely mean he was interrogated again, and provided more intelligence (under torture as well). None of this means Ulfric willingly cooperated with the Thalmor. I think that is highly unlikely.

 

2) I don't really want to get on a philosophical debate on why smaller government institutions are better, but I will say it has to do with them being more easily kept in line by the people. Its a lot easier for the people to remove z bad high king than a bad emperor, as evidenced by the civil war currently on going.

 

3) I didn't mean tact. I meant that Ulfric is a real leader. Its undeniable. He has charisma, he's popular, he inspires hid men(and women), and he motivates them. He makes you feel powerful, he praises you, he mentors you (on the voice), and he is a powerful speaker (Galmar does all this as well).

 

On the flip side, Tullius, Rikke, and TMII have none of those qualities. The only thing I can say about them is they all at least had b**ls when I killed them. They don't inspire me, and they don't make me feel like I performed an extraordinary service. Its basically, good job. Here is s promotion. Now go kill some more dudes. Oh, and here is some extra pay. Now go away. They have no leadership qualities. Pretty pathetic =\

[StormHammer81]

1) Ulfrics involvement as an asset is, IMO, completely taken out of context. I'll quote the dossier; "Under interrogation, we learned of his potential value (son of the Jarl of Windhelm) and he was assigned as an asset to the interrogator, who is now First Emissary Elenwen." Ulfric being assigned to Elenwen as an asset simply means they believed he had valuable information, tactical or otherwise, they could extract from him. That doesn't mean he willingly cooperated or volunteered information. It also doesn't mean that he was a informant either. It just means they wanted to interrogate him for potential information.

 

"After the war, contact was established and he has proven his worth as an asset." - again, and I know many think this damning, but this is just lingo meaning that Ulfric was seen again after the war. It doesn't have anything to do with Ulfric cooperating. It just means whatever intelligence they got from him was beneficial. Most likely, intelligence garnered during the war. Again though, he was imprisoned a second time after the Markarth Incident. They likely mean he was interrogated again, and provided more intelligence (under torture as well). None of this means Ulfric willingly cooperated with the Thalmor. I think that is highly unlikely.

 

During his interrogation, Ulfric was broken and he was made to believe that information provided by him led to the capture of the Imperial city. And yes, that comment is very damning indeed. More than anything else in the Dossier, IMO. "Contact was re-established." An estimation of the timing places this to some point *after* he was "let-go" and *up to* the Markath incident, after which he became un-cooperative for obvious reasons. You cannot just deny that this comment alone does not have great significance. The Markarth incident accomplished primarily (3) things:

 

1) Jarl Ingman got his throne back

2) Jarl Ulfric finally won legitimacy for his cause

3) Thalmor gained a foothold in Skyrim and at that time began knocking on doors (Because the Emperor could no longer be taken at his word regarding Talos laws)

 

If you take these events and correspond them with what the Dossier says, then it would seem there was some kind of alliance or arrangement made between Ulfric and the Thalmor prior to Markarth. This can be seen by what Ulfric asked for, "Freedom to worship Talos in the Reach". Think about. It was a perfect trap. Since both Ulfric and Thalmor hate the Empire...

 

Ulfric love him or hate him, good or bad is being used by the Thalmor, he is their man. Especially since Elenwen came to save him at Helgen.

 

That Dossier brings light to Darkness.

 

2) I don't really want to get on a philosophical debate on why smaller government institutions are better, but I will say it has to do with them being more easily kept in line by the people. Its a lot easier for the people to remove z bad high king than a bad emperor, as evidenced by the civil war currently on going.

 

Good, neither do I :D

 

3) I didn't mean tact. I meant that Ulfric is a real leader. Its undeniable. He has charisma, he's popular, he inspires hid men(and women), and he motivates them. He makes you feel powerful, he praises you, he mentors you (on the voice), and he is a powerful speaker (Galmar does all this as well).

 

Ok, kool. I never said Ulfric wasn't a leader, I just don't think he's thinking clearly. Like William Wallace said, "It's our wits which makes us men."

 

On the flip side, Tullius, Rikke, and TMII have none of those qualities. The only thing I can say about them is they all at least had b**ls when I killed them. They don't inspire me, and they don't make me feel like I performed an extraordinary service. Its basically, good job. Here is s promotion. Now go kill some more dudes. Oh, and here is some extra pay. Now go away. They have no leadership qualities. Pretty pathetic =\

 

Then you don't know them. For someone to say that Legate Rikke is a... a what... bad leader? proves that in regards to these guys you are biased against them. Rikke is a very good leader and also has a good heart. Tullius is a master tactician and is well known for getting the drop on Ulric and turning things around for the Empire. I felt inspired by them the moment I joined the Empire, dedicating myself to the service of *every* citizen in the Empire. And also felt inspired by Ulfric but had a change of heart when I heard about raping and pillaging Whiterun and making a fool out of the Jarl B, just because he had b*lls.

 

Ulfric didn't even have the b*lls to answer Jarl B's challenge in person. I guess it was easier for the coward to murder a young man who admires you than face off with a true Nord. End of the day, the big deuler himself was hiding in fear behind the walls of his castle, while the rest of us were all outside looking for some justice.

 

We spiked his head and hung his entrails over the West Gate into the Imperial city as a warning to the next 10 generations to come to show what happens to traitorous cowards. The Camorrans are next.

Edited December 27, 2012 by bigmagy1981

[Gabryal]

Wow lot to reply to here, and I've kinda got out of the long responses mostly because they've started exhausting me.

 

I think first I did have a revelation about something you kept referring to that confused me but I thought I knew what you were saying bigmagy, and do correct me if I'm wrong. After rereading some of your posts it seems that you were saying that Ulfric was either a pawn or a tool or an agent of some sort for the Dominion at one point. I had no idea that you were thinking that or else I would have brought it up before now. This simply isn't the case, nor have I found any evidence that I would call credible on any wiki anywhere at all that would suggest he was. Zaknafein hit it right on the head with his first point in his post.

 

You and I are both Military men, we've been around the block so you might know what the 519th Bn 51st Infantry ( part of the 525th BSB ) does. I know quite a bit about Intelligence Lingo, and an " asset " is anything that you can get information from. Even the famous 52 pictures on the playing cards were considered " assets " in Intelligence terms, essentially all it means is potential source of information. Even Osama Bin Laden was an " asset " in Intelligence terms. In all likelihood considering the Thalmor's reputation Ulfric was more than just a prisoner of theirs but he probably went through some " rigorous interrogations " while captured, or torture if you don't like screwing around with stupid jargon. As far as Elenwen and Helgen goes I'm not 100% on what you're referring to, but that being said, it doesn't point to any collaboration that Ulfric had with Elenwen all it means is that the Thalmor thought him too valuable to be executed ( say when we decided not to kill Hussein in '91 ) namely that she thought he had potentially more value alive than dead. If this means that the Thalmor think that the Rebellion benefit's their cause, then you could also easily say that means that the Empire is actively supporting it's own demise by upholding the WGC, since the Thalmor are playing both sides against each other ( demanding the Empire uphold the WGC and also prodding Ulfric to continue his rebellion ), it stands to reason then that if it had been Tullius on the chopping block at Helgen captured by Stormcloaks Elenwen would have rescued him too, since the goal of the Thalmor is to prolong the war, and that means neither leader can be killed. In effect that means that if Ulfric is Elenwen's man, so is Tullius ( or the Empire in general ) it means that Ulfric is not guilty of anything that the Empire isn't, so the situation is neutral and therefor irrelevant.

 

I'll have to disagree with you on Tullius and Rikke, and here's why and I think you'll understand it. Leadership is something that comes from yourself, or above. You'll remember this in sub-unit training exercises. They pounded home to everyone about CoC even as a private they'd tell you you were a command of one. Not an individual, a command of one. With Ulfric and his Stormcloaks the buck literally does stop with Ulfric. He's the top of the CoC, all Leadership falls downward from him, down to the lowest ranked members of the Stormcloaks.

 

It is a simple Impossibility for Tullius or Rikke to have " Leadership " in the sense that Ulfric does. They are not the CINC they are subordinates, with Rikke being at best 2nd in Command of the Imperial Forces of in Skyrim ( With Tullius being 1st in Command in Skyrim and the Emperor being CINC overall ). This means that while they may have a long range Strategic Goal, and a series of Tactical goals, the overall role of Leader falls on the shoulders of TMII. At the time of the beginning of the game, it is TMII alone who embodies Imperial Leadership ( and this cannot change, you know how CoC goes, even in the US system, the only way CINC changes is through an election ) with Tullius and Rikke simply being tasked with making decisions to carry out the desire of TMII. Even if TMII dies in the course of the story it does not matter, the original and throughout the entire game, Tullius and Rikke may be fine commanders, but they are not leaders, nor can they be without replacing TMII.

 

Ulfric is both handicapped and unfettered by not having this problem. He is handicapped in that he, as both the political and military leader of the Stormcloaks, has to fill more than one hat. He cannot be simply a good soldier, he has to also inspire his troops through his personal reputation. Tullius does not have to do this, Imperial troops may or may not love him as a commander ( for the most part they seem to be indifferent, though some are warm towards Rikke ) but they do know their duty to the Empire, and Tullius is just another commander. If Tullius was replaced with a different Commander then nothing much would change except the Strategic and Tactical positions that might differ between Tullius and the new commander. So Tullius could die in his sleep and the overall result to the Imperials would not be nearly as grave ( perhaps better since I believe that Rikke would then assume command ) as if the same happened to Ulfric.

 

He is also unfettered however, he does not have any limitations put upon him by anyone of higher authority, his only responsibility is to his troops and his country. This lends itself to a freedom of choice that Tullius does not enjoy. If he choose a certain tactic that works particularly well against Legion troops he's free to do so for as long as he wants. If Tullius is ordered to do something by TMII, then he has no choice but to obey. Ulfric's command is therefor more flexible even if it's more perilous.

 

I think I read something in there about a coup on Ulfric's part. I'd like to re-interate that this is only considered a coup by the Imperials. The longer you go along in the game, the more you realize that a lot of what happened when Ulfric killed Torygg is propaganda spread by the Empire. Now don't get me wrong, I think Ulfric was not without ambition in all this, but here's even according to what Torygg's wife said about the conflict.

 

Torygg ( who I find incredibly tragic ) was waiting for Ulfric to arrive, he knew he was coming and he assumed it was to discuss ( as they had before ) the secession of Skyrim from the Empire. They had talked on this before and Torygg, who had quite a bit of Hero worship for Ulfric, was about 90% on the side of secession. However he was also at that particular time, whether he knew it or not, control'd by the empire. They're troops were thick in Solitude ( as they had always been ) and I think Torygg naively believed that his word would be respected if he declared Skyrim free ( while I believe that the Empire would have arranged an accident, not the first time it's happened ) but what happened next was either a tragic misunderstanding, a necessary evil, or the work of an Ambitious man who also had a right to the Crown ( Windhelm being the traditional Capitol of Skyrim ).

 

Ulfric showed up and challenged Torygg to single combat. This story is straight from the lips of the Solitude Steward. Torygg was shocked but could not say no, and the result was a foregone conclusion. Now whether or not Ulfric used the voice doesn't matter. In duels of challenge the Voice is permitted, but the truth was that Torygg had never seen a battle, never killed, he was just a young man and untested in battle. Ulfric on the other hand had been in the thick of war, and was a renowned swordsman. So Torygg was killed by Skyrim tradition. Not assassinated, not overthrown, killed by challenge. A legal Skyrim institution. If you continue on with the story from other sources you read that -Imperial- forces chased Ulfric from the city, not Solitude guards, but Imperial troops. This was not Skyrim law, by Skyrim law a moot was to be called, and by tradition the victor in single combat would be made High King.

 

Now was Torygg in league with the Empire? I say almost certainly not. Was he being manipulated? Subtly he was yes. The Empire was playing on his Naivete and his youth. Did this justify what Ulfric did? That's debatable, personally I think if I had been Ulfric I would have arranged for Torygg and Igrid to be " rescued " by the Stormcloaks and brought to Windhelm where talks could be made without the Empire watching over Torygg's shoulders. I'm not sure how that would have played out, or if it was even possible, but I would have tried. Then again, I like Torygg from everything I read and have heard in the game, whereas if Ulfric felt he should be High King and not Torygg ( in that he was Ambitious ) then Ulfric went about his ambition in the honorable Nord way. So no coup there.

 

As far as Skyrim once belonging to the Orcs, if we want to play that one out we might as well give it all back to the Dominion, because at one point they owned all of Tamriel. Skyrim belongs to the Nords through right of Conquest, it's as simple as that. Did the Orcs end up on the short end of the stick? Yes they did, but they did because they lost. They weren't tricked or deceived, they were just beaten. This is no different, or less moral, than the fact that the Dominion doesn't control Skyrim now because they themselves were defeated. Does this justify Nord attitudes towards Orcs or Elves or Bretons? Yes and No.

 

Yes in that when the country that you populate is under threat from outside forces you become insular. This is true of any nation, but especially an Empire. A good example of this is the Modern UK, where Scots don't like the English in their country ( in general ), this of course doesn't mean the Scots are currently in rebellion, but if the Scots are bigoted towards the English in peace time ( and let's be honest the English are bigoted towards the Scots as well, again in general ) imagine how much more so they would be so in a time of rebellion. If you were in Scotland and it was in a state of rebellion against the UK it wouldn't matter if you were Italian. Being a non-Scot would be good enough. Even Balgruuf wouldn't allow Redguards into his city and he's pretty Moderate ( Redguards looking for a traitor that turned over one of their cities to the Thalmor no less, if you want direct collaboration with the Thalmor I'd say that Balgruuf would be more guilty of it than Ulfric though neither of them very much ).

 

Ulfric didn't murder Torygg, as far as Jarl B goes, challenge for vengeance and challenge for Leadership are two very different things in Skyrim. He didn't murder Torygg, and he refused Balgruuf on the grounds that Balgruuf wasn't challenging him for anything but for an old feud. All things considered, the war is a nasty business, but things have to be put into context. Grey-Mane cares as much about Whiterun as Balgruuf does, so if you play through with Grey-Mane as the new Jarl you get to see Balgruuf in a different light. He seems much more like a bitter man who makes a lot of excuses than as the leader so many thought he was.

 

That's just personalities though, not data processed to form a conclusion ( imperfect data but all the data I could gather ). All that being said, sometimes things just need to be done a certain way, and in Skyrim's case, the arguement could be made that siding with either side benefits the Thalmor, but you can only say that one side will -always- benefit the Thalmor, and that's the side of the Empire ( for reasons I've already listed ).

[StormHammer81]

I'll have to wait until later to go over some of the points you missed because the Computer I'm on now isn't that great. I coudl type a bunch of stuff now and there's not guarantee it would make it to the webpage.

 

You and I will just have to disagree about Tullius and Rikke's leadership. Tullius was assigned to Skyrim because he's one of their best men. Same reason why Rikke was assigned to be his assistance. I mean, you can't just say that just because these guys are Imperials, they must have bad leadership. There is numerous dialogue and quests which prove the are good, capable leaders.

 

But yes, I do think Ulfric was working with the Thalmor between time he was released and Markath, sometime in there. No mistake there.

 

I also know that based on history, charasmatic governments, barbarian chiefdoms (Attila, Khan), etc... usually do not out last their founders. Whereas with an Empire, we can always replace as Administrator because we have policy. Policy gives the Imperial chain of command the flexibility it needs. I would also say a charasmatic leader has less flexibility and too much accountability, as the whole world literally revolves around them.

 

Your notes about Jarl B arent' accurate because even the Jarl says that Ulfric killed Torygg because he could. The Jarl B didn't want war with Ulfric, but there was too much heat in the air, so to try and settle it, Jarl B asks you to take his axe to Ulfric.

 

He didn't send the axe to Ulfric's army, it was intended for Ulfric. Meaning man to man. There is no other possible way of interrpreting that gesture. Which is also why Jarl B was suited up for battle, expecting to face Ulfric.

 

Furthmore, Jarl B was mad because Ulfric never answered his challenge personally. What's the point of sending you axe to the other guy, if say I could just send an army of Dragons down on you? Again, you can not justify the Torygg deul and not also admit that Ulfric was being a coward by not facing Jarl B. You can't pick and choose. Ulfric was wrong, both times.

 

How about I challenge you to a deul and then you'll have your sword and armor, I'll show up with my AR-15 and a copy of Pirates of the Caribbean 3. I mean, you wouldn't last 5 mins, let alone have a fair chance. In nearly ALL the pagan tales I've heard, when there was a deul, both men used the same WEAPONS and fought on the same level. Shouting is something which only a precious few dedicated people can do. It would NOT be the standard in a deul.

 

The point in a deul is it's not all about Ulfric. This is something that EVERY one of you have missed. But Completely! The Deul is also meant to show what Torygg can do. Would Talos approve of this deul? What if Elisif became High Queen by vote of the Moot *somehow*. So, Ulfric can just shout her down then.

 

Furthermore, if a Deul was meant to choose the High King, why bother to have a Moot? Think about it. By that fact alone, proves what Ulfric did was illegitimate. He is NOT the High King. You can't just go and murder someone, then magically become worthy to take their seat of authority. LEGITIMACY is why the Empire had to step in.

 

I believe in deuls as a way to solve Vengenace related issues. What did Troygg do the Ulfric? Other than be a nice guy who happens to be King and have lots of chicas to love him.

 

Three things which Ulfric coveted for himself. Or at least the first two rather :/ Ultimately, Ulfric is just enflaming the tension and making things worse for everyone.

 

Additionally, there is a tome which talks about how the Orcs were forced out of the Summerset and everywhere they lived after the change and fled to Saarthal region. Later on, they defeated Ysramor's forces and established a settlement near Saarthul.

Edited December 27, 2012 by bigmagy1981

[Zaknafein415]

I have to disagree BM. According to Skyrim tradition, the duel is a way for Jarls to address grievances and disagreements with the High King. Ulfric had a grievance with the imperial backed high king, so he addressed his concerns in the proper Nordic fashion.

 

As to using the voice, the best insight comes from Ulfric himself. We can all agree that learning to shout requires years of dedication and study, and Ulfric spent 10 years learning to shout. Torryg spent none. Ulfric used the voice to prove a point. That Torryg had no discipline and dedication. Now, I paraphrased a bit, but basically that's from the mouth of Ulfric.

 

Even had Ulfric not used the Voice, the results of that duel were a foregone conclusion. Everyone in Skyrim can attest to that. Torryg never had a chance, and according to Skyrim tradition, that's a disgrace.

 

Think of it this way. If your family celebrates Christmas, and has for thousands of years, it is second nature for you to also celebrate Christmas. That's your families tradition. In the same token, duels have been a tradition in Skyrim as a way for men to address grievances. If its an agreed tradition, and it is, then its legitimate. If its legitimate, its not murder.

 

Lastly, using the voice was not cheating. If using the thu'um is allowed, which it is, and Ulfric has the voice, then he is allowed, according to custom, to use it. Is it cheating when you use unrelenting force and push people off a mountain? No? So how is it any different for Ulfric? Simply because Torryg can't? That's Torrygs fault, not Ulfrics.

 

On a different note, when I said Rikke and Tullius were bad leaders, I meant it. Tullius has no charisma. When you walk around Solitude, you don't find anyone inspired by Tullius or Elisif; but you do find people inspired by Ulfric. Tullius may be a great tactician(though there's nothing in the game that says he is), but his leadership skills are severely lacking. Tactics and cunning don't make you a leader(much like TMII, amazing tactician, but horrible leader). Unlike Ulfric, Tullius doesn't even bother to understand the Nords. He insults their ways throughout the imperial quest line. If you don't understand the people you are leading, you're a bad leader. Hands down.

[StormHammer81]

MUHAHAHAHAHAHA

 

Damn, you guys must really hate the Empire. I suppose it's fair though, it's true you don't mess with people's value systems and expect everything to turn out ok. There was once a time when I had to go all Stormcloak on some folks and "liberate" myself. That willful banning of Religion and everything by the Empire kind of reminds me of times when the Romans/Byzantines tried this on xyz native people (ie The Jews). It didn't work very well for them either.

 

Just made everyone hate them, like I'm seeing now. There are similarities of what happened to me and what happened to Skyrim. I was better for it in the end, having "liberated" myself. Sometimes a person can only be pushed so far before starting to dream of "freedomish" ideals. Then again, I don't think the Stormcloaks are that bad of a thing however, there's still a smoking gun with Ulfric and killing Legate Rikke is not on the agenda for me.

 

I think the whole war is stupid and folly. Wish there was someway like in New Vegas to call a peace between the two, such between the NCR and the Brotherhood. That made sense. You know a lot of things in New Vegas made sense.

 

But this... this sh*t here is pure delicious crazy. From Noble Empire ---> Citizens fearing for their lives ---> Return of Ayleid style rule ---> Flesh Gardens, Open skin art, cruel Elvish oppression and slavery. Nuts.

 

I dunno, Stormcloaks just aren't the liberators I had hoped for, but this is Skyrim which has always been a cold, hard land... ie frozen hell. Very beautiful land though.

 

What you guys gonna do if you find out later that Ulfric was a plant? Or rather, if not willingly, Thalmor are able to get to him and mess with Skyrim somehow? Imperial oppression sucks, I know. However, what if the Nords start oppressing other races in Skyrim? Windhelm is the most racist city in Skyrim.

 

Just seems to me like we're trading one bad deal for another. And if the Empire were to go to war with the Thalmor, no more WGC what then? That would make the Empire legit again, no? If the Empire does indeed become legit again, they would be the better force for dealing with the Thalmor. I just don't see Ulfric as a unifer. Perhaps for Skyrim, but there are many hurtles to getting everyone to work together. I don't see this in Ulfric. A good Warlord, sure. That only goes so far however.

 

Once you're out in the world, out of your own country, things change. Imperials have the most experience dealing with other provinces, so why not the Empire? Of course, TMII kind of f*cked up diplomatic relations with everyone, so damn. What a jerk.

 

Of course, I'm reminded that sometimes change is not always for the better, you have to hold out for the sunrise. Now, if I was to ask the Thalmor about the Empire, would they talk favorably of them? No. That's because the enemy doesn't care. Enemy wants one thing and one thing alone ~ To Destroy You. Unlike you fellas, I can't hold the Empire responsible for what TMII did himself. You know, that's not right to the Imperials. Also can't hold Ulfric responsible for what TMII did to him.

 

All I know for certain is the Thalmor want the Empire dead. They don't want Ulfric dead, even showed up to try and save him at Helgen and Tullius saw right thru this and wouldn't allow it. You guys are just as critical of Tullius and Rikke as I have been of Ulfric.

 

So, you go ahead, I'm going to stay and wait for the dawn. Finally, although mistakes have been made by TMII, I will not be the reason why the Empire falls. If Talos wants it dead, fine by me. But I'll have no part of it or allowing it to happen.

 

 

LONG LIVE THE EMPIRE!!!

Edited December 27, 2012 by bigmagy1981

[Zaknafein415]

Well it comes down to a couple things. First, as much posturing as there is, this really comes down to a matter of preference. The fight in Hammerfell was a sideshow. If you are familiar with the war lore, you know that both the imperials and dominion pulled most of their troops from Hammerfell prior to the Battle of the Red Ring, and committed to the fight in Cyrodiil. That means the Red guards did not fight off the combined Dominion, just a small fraction.

 

I also do not believe the Dominion intended to win the first war. Its my belief that the first war was a ruse to bloody Cyrodiil's nose, and get them to sign the WGC. You are definitely right, the Thalmor are playing the long game, like chess. The Thalmor know they can't beat Cyrodiil straight up. They are playing divide and conquer.

 

Now, all the concessions I've given are not a change of heart. It's my belief that the Dominion is much weaker than most people believe. They most certainly cannot beat Cyrodiil in a straight up war.

 

Since they are playing the long game, humanity really only has about another 30 years to crush the Dominion before our resolve falters between generations. That means our strength is in the short game. Resolve the civil war, make treaties and then go snap the Dominions neck in the next 20 years. That would be my strategy.

 

The choice of Stormcloak or Imperial is really just cosmetic. It should be a united human front against the Dominion. If you go storm cloak, there is no reason why Hammerfell and Skyrim can't make an alliance. Throw in high rock, and you have an army.

 

I personally prefer the stormcloaks because I dislike the Empire. I just want the nations to be free and independent. I also dislike how overburdening the empire is, and the signing of the WGC was extremely short sighted and selfish.