The Great Imperial vs. Stormcloak Debate

[imperistan]

Hammerfell has a legitimate b*tch with the Empire however, the Empire really did them a service in disguise. Someone had to beat the Dominion and it's no secret why the Imperials left an entire Legion in Hammerfell. TMII was thinking ahead.

 

This doesn't work once you realize TMII had absolutely nothing to do with parts of the legion being left in Hammerfel. That was his General and his General alone who decided to do that, who in all likelihood probably would have been hanged (Or was, I don't think it was ever said what happened to him) had the Emperor found out he had intentionally weakened the army he had called upon.

[Peacimowen]

Skyrim for the Forsworn! Down with both Ulfric and the Empire!

I'm really disappointed that that's not a real alternative available in game.

 

I find the Nords are far too biggoted and egotistical.

The current Empire just seems an oppressive force with no respect for its people, just wanting to control as much territory as possible.

Edited February 9, 2013 by Peacimowen

[StormHammer81]

Skyrim for the Forsworn! Down with both Ulfric and the Empire!

I'm really disappointed that that's not a real alternative available in game.

 

Me too! That would make for an awesome DLC.

 

 

I find the Nords are far too biggoted and egotistical.

 

Check, although not all of them are bigots.

 

The current Empire just seems an oppressive force with no respect for its people, just wanting to control as much territory as possible.

 

Tiber Septim. The problem with the Empire now, is "aggressive" has been replaced by "oppressive". The Empire was an "aggressive force". Now, unfortunaley under TMII it's become an "oppressive force". Thalmor have *really* messed things up for the Empire. However, I believe this is only a temporary arrangement until the Empire gets new Leadership after TMII resigns.

 

Stormcloaks under Ulfric's "New Skyrim" can end up being just as oppressive if not even worse, though, and then we've lost the Empire forever. Which is another thing that makes this such a hard decision to make. Not to mention that Talos's Empire would truly be dead forever if Skyrim secedes.

 

 

LONG LIVE THE EMPIRE

Edited February 12, 2013 by bigmagy1981

[KyleFlamepeak]

I think most people make the mistake of thinking that the current Empire is the same as the one in the Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion. After Martin sacrifices himself to stop the Oblivion Crisis, the Mede Dynasty took the throne. At that point, the new Empire was weak, so they fell to the Thalmor during the Great War. But, that doesn't mean they are the "bad guys." Ulfric Stormcloak is not working for the Aldmeri Dominion, but he is only fighting to gain power. So, you could either choose a crumbling Empire, or a worthless Rebellion. Your choice.

[HighkingUlfricStormcloak]

You obviously dont know how weak the Empire is.

Siding with the Empire only means that Skyrim gets brought
down with it.

 

Always remember that when the Imperial City was sacked it was Redguards and Nords who marched to
take it back, not Imperials. It was the Redguard and Nord Legions that left
their home to save the Empire. They left their lands in the hands of militias (
the Al'kir in Hammerfell and the Stormcloaks in Skyrim ) to come to a land that
wasn't technically their own to save a city that they weren't really welcome in
( Anyone else remember the way that Redguards and Nords were treated in Cyrodil
in Oblivion? I sure do ). So what thanks did they get?

 

1) The Emperor tried to give half of Hammerfell to the Thalmor, the Redguards said f*** off,
seceded, fought another five years, and beat the Thalmor

2) The Emperor gave the Thalmor the right to Police the Empire ( especially Skyrim ) hauling off
his subjects without appeal to Imperial Law

3) The Emperor banned the worship of the Founder of the Empire, and a Nord to boot.

 

So essentially he was saved by two groups of people, who he immediately turned on when things got a
little rough.

 

The Mede's are a pathetic imitation of the greatness that the Septim's used to be. The Empire is
dead, whether you side with the Imperials or the Stormcloaks, the Thalmor one
the second that the Emperor turned his back on his subjects. What point is the
Empire if it can't protect its people, so people can side with the Imperials if
they want, they can delude themselves into thinking that the Imperials can
defeat the Thalmor if everyone just sticks together.

 

Reality is that they can't. Not because they don't have the men, or the strategy, they don't have
the will. They didn't have the will to tell the Thalmor to go blow it out their
royal elven assholes, and they never will, not while the Mede's are in charge,
and essentially sink the Empire itself into another civil war ( like the one
that brought the Mede's to power in the first place ) which would suit me just
fine honestly.

 

The Redguards defeated the Thalmor by themselves, Skyrim could too, they both have done so
before while fighting -for- the Empire, I don't see why they couldn't while
fighting for themselves. Hell they could even create a military alliance to
take on the Thalmor till they were destroyed, wouldn't hurt anything for them
to team up for a bit, since between the two of them they're more than powerful
enough so long as Cyrodil isn't holding them back and taking all their best
warriors to use defending places other than Skyrim and Hammerfell.

 

HighRock has more or less allied itself with the Thalmor anyway, which kinda puts the Orcs in a bad
way, since they're a long way away from any Imperial help and the Nords,
Redguards, and Bretons have all destroyed Orsinium at one point or another, and
to get imperial help they'd either have to march through Hammerfell, Skyrim, or
land ships at HighRock. All of which would involve a long trek through hostile
waters or lands. The smartest thing for the Orcs to do would be to secede
themselves, declare a sort of “neutrality " in the 15th century Swiss
Sense, in that they'll export Mercenaries to either Hammerfell or to Skyrim so
long as neither attacks Orsinium itself. Since it's equally beneficial to both
Hammerfell and Skyrim to have access to Orcish Mercenaries, and that it would
unify the Orcs and the other side, if one side broke the neutrality, it would
be a mutual benefit for everyone, except of course the Bretons of HighRock.

 

Hammerfell and Skyrim might as well sign a deal to split HighRock between themselves, that place
hasn't been anything but trouble for either for 400 years, sounds harsh but
it's true. Also secures the north which allows Skyrim to protect its South from
any Imperial Nonsense and it's East from Argonian and possibly Dunmer
Aggression, goaded on by the Thalmor ( who have deep claws in both societies )
while at the same time freeing up Skyrim's rather impressive Navy ( read the
wiki's Skyrim and Hammerfell supply nearly all of the Imperial Navy. When Hammerfell seceded it took about half the
Navy with it ), since Hammerfell simply cannot be ignored from its position
North of Valenwood and the Kingdoms that used to be Elsywer nor even that far
from the Summerset Isles themselves, the Thalmor would be thrown on the
defensive at sea, to the north... and to the south.

 

Ports along Valenwood would burn, and Redguard Naval vessels would attack any weakened naval
positions north of Summerset Isles, conceivably they themselves blockading
Alinor, and that's just the situation on Sea.

 

Should Skyrim attack at any time with just its Navy, it gives the Redguards a more or
less free hand to strike west into what's left of the Empire, or strike south
into Valenwood, or both. Taking Northern Valenwood would take most of the ports
of that Nation, leaving Thalmor troops without a means of supplies without invading
Cyrodil again. That alone might be enough for the puppet Colovian Dynasty in
Valenwood to be overthrown by the Bosmer, since they hate it almost as much as
they hate the Empire for abandoning them in the first place. A negotiated peace
(perhaps something even as a territorial trade in exchange for Military
support. Bosmer joining the fight against the Summerset Isles in exchange for
their ports back, for trading purposes at the beginning of course) plus
thousands of Thalmor prisoners.

 

The next step of course would be either a Nord, or a Redguard invasion of the Isles themselves,
and both have more than enough reason to do so. Hate is a strong motivator and
both hate them with a passion. All this could come to pass if just -one- of the
two nations of either Skyrim or Hammerfell were to take the fight to the
Thalmor with the other acting as they would almost certainly do. An organized
offensive between the two would crush the Isles like a bear trap.

 

So who needs the Imperials again?

 

Likely after the Thalmor are made to pay (and dearly ) by the people they wronged so horribly (
the Bosmer, Nords, and Redguards ) the three groups would turn home and begin
their own expansions. Hammerfell likely into Cyrodil, Skyrim into Morrowind,
and Valenwood into Elsywer. All territories that the three races have been
eyeing for some time. Of course this is hard luck on the Imperials, Khajiit,
Argonians, and Dunmer (It wouldn't be Hard luck on the Altmer, they had it
coming ) but honestly all those groups have done the first three very wrong in
the past. It shouldn't really surprise them that they get paid back now. The
Dunmer might even make their own play to take, and then hold onto and found, a
new Dunmer country in eastern Cyrodil. Which considering how they play it
diplomatically, might succeed. Reorganize the Council with more progressive
houses. Offer Military alliances to the new " big three " and attack
Argonia and Cyrodil, both of which the Dunmer have truly been betrayed by, and dishonorably
so ( and the Dunmer are big on their honor, enough so that even Ulfric respect
their sense of Honor, if not them themselves ). That could secure them a place,
though not a huge one, in a Tamriel future.

 

The truly doomed races, at least if you play as a Stormcloaks, are the Bretons, High Elves,
Imperials, Argonians, and Khajiit. The only one of which I truly feel sorry for
is the Khajiit, who aside from some relatively small wars with Valenwood,
really haven't bothered anyone too terribly much. The others really, really
have it coming (some might argue the Bretons don't, look em up, they're almost
as bad as the High Elves, and worse than the Imperials)

 

The map would get Carved up anyway, with perhaps Cyrodil shrunk to just the Imperial city and
it's outlying farmland. I doubt any group would truly seize the city as to do
so would be to declare themselves de facto the new Emperor of Tamriel,
something that would almost inevitably lead to a massive war between the
Bosmer, Nords, and Redguards. Something none of those three races wants, and
honestly none of those races are greedy enough to want it. Greed isn't really
in the nature of any of those groups, not saying they won't bargain for what
they can get, but the reality is that force of arms for them is more a matter
of honor ( and payback ) than for conquest overall, at least in this point of
their history.

 

Essentially what I'm saying is that supporting the Empire in TES V is a little bit like making an
ugly girl prom queen ( I didn't go to prom, no idea what happens to make a prom
queen, so don't hate on me too much for that statement ) it makes no sense.
Everyone knows the tiara doesn't make her pretty, it's just an ugly girl with a
crown on her head, and that's the Empire in this day and age. An ugly girl with
a crown on it's head.

 

Don't date the crowned ugly girl, date the poor girl with the cool accent, who likes video
games and skips prom to play World of Warcraft. You can guarantee that she'll
have at least looked up some interesting bedroom techniques online at one point
or another.

 

The sum up again is: Don't date the crowned ugly chick.

 

 

 

 

One thing that the Dominion definitely learned in the last war was that you can't leave the Empire
out of the Fight, and you can't fight the Imperial Provinces ( or former ones
such as Hammerfell ) at the same time. Ironically it seems that the reason the
Empire survived has much less to do with signing the WGC and much more to do
with the fact that the Dominion had it's hands full for five full years -after-
the signing of the WGC fighting Hammerfell alone. The Empire it seems cannot
survive on it's own, Hammerfell it seemed could, and I hold onto the belief
that Skyrim on it's own could do the exact same thing ( as far as Internal
politics, Jarls, etc goes look up what Hammerfell's internal Government is
like, jesus it makes Skyrim look neat and tidy with anyone who has the option
to be a Jarl as more Qualified than any leader in Hammerfell ) all that of
course is an aside, what it all amounted to in the end was that for 5 years
Hammerfell made a stand alone and won. The Empire fought a 3 year war, with the
help of Hammerfell and Skyrim, and lost. That's pretty pathetic honestly, and
very poor martial ability on the part of the administration of the Military.

 

All that of course is meaningless to me, who can beat the Thalmor may be academic at this point. For
all we know the damage of the WGC will never be undone and the Empire will die
no matter what, such things aren't addressed in the game. Perhaps it's only a
matter of time till man is enslaved again by mer, again no way to know. I do
know that the ban on Talos worship the Empire will never recover from (
something like how Catholicism never recovered in England after Henry VIII
formed the Church of England ) and that alone is so awful as to leave me
disgusted. Tiber Septim so dishonored makes me gag.

 

That's just the one thing, and I've made plenty of analogies to the others. The question always remains
in the end " What -kind- of Country is the best type in this situation,
not strongest, but most moral " in this there is no question. The Empire
has failed the right of nations to exist in my mind, and I've given plenty of
examples as to why. Skyrim hasn't failed, yet, so the Stormcloaks should get
their chance.

 

Or if that isn't enough for people, just think about what dicks we in the USA were to the
British Empire when we decided that -they- had failed the right to govern us,
and the war we fought against them ( less effectively than the Stormcloaks I
might add, and more brutal, cruel, and dishonorable. Don't read the text books
kids, find a real history book ) we decided that a 2% tax increase was enough
to tell the British Empire that they had lost the consent of us to be governed
by them.

 

Then consider that the Empire has done about 10,000 times worse.

 

I know it's a new analogy but the ones I'm using over and over just don't seem to be sticking,
even if they are correct.

 

 

The difference between the Dominion and the Empire is still what I said.
They've had ten years to rebuild and grow stronger. The Empire hasn't, and yes
that's TMII's fault, but once it's broken it's broken. TMII will go down as the
worst Emperor in history I'm sure, but he'll also go down as the last.

 

The question still remains as to who will run Skyrim, the Dominion or the Nords, because the
Empire won't hold onto it either way, even if I do agree that Balgruuf would by
far be the better High King ( I still wish Torygg had survived personally ),
the Dominion doesn't have the problems the Empire has and doesn't have the
internal or external problems that the Empire has. It's just as simple as that,
the underlying reality is that the Empire died when Hammerfell was able to do
what TMII couldn't, namely prove that the Dominion isn't all powerful.

 

I've gone over it all before, and dissecting individual personalities of individual people in what is
really is a non-issue ( 300 years from now it won't matter who defeated the
Dominion, only that the Dominion is defeated ). One thing is absolutely certain
however and that's that anyone in the game would be a better leader than TMII.

 

If Ulfric can do it then so be it, and Balgruuf didn't have to sign on with the Empire but he did (
over of all things a childhood rivalry with Ulfric ) and that's the way the
chips fall really. I suppose there is the third option that I've not thought
of, but is a possibility. The Empire survives for another 10 years ( the empire
wins in Skyrim ) then the Dominion attack again, Skyrim is occupied again, and
a leader like Ulfric stands up for Skyrim and fights them off, again. No matter
what though, the Empire will lose Skyrim, it's only a matter of how, when, and
why.

 

 

 

It's a really crappy situation the player is put into, and I personally am not willing to put the fate of Skyrim into a " hope "
that the Empire will do what it was supposed to do in the beginning, fight it
out to the end with the Thalmor. It's not a question whether Ulfric will, he
will, in fact if he hopes to stay in power he -must- fight it out to the end
with them. If he doesn't then he loses all support, because the majority of his
followers are fighting not just for him, but to remove the Thalmor from Skyrim
if not from the world entirely. The Empire simply doesn't take this approach. I
can't as a player support anything less than a war against the Thalmor, and I
can't take the chance that the Empire will ever do what it should have done in
the first place. The Thalmor are the crux of all this, not Uflric or The
Empire. The Empire under TMII followed a horrible plan, without him will they
change? It's impossible to know. Even if they did change without Hammerfell the
odds are grim at best. Ulfric is the best choice, I just know he's a fighter,
and that's what I want as a player, a fighter.

 

I honestly wish I -knew- that with TMII dead the war between the Empire and the Thalmor would
resume.

I still maintain that the Empire depends entirely on whether or not they can bring Hammerfell back into the fold. I still see no reason that
Skyrim couldn't duplicate Hammerfell's success, however you both are right in
that it would leave damage Skyrim badly, the question really is " What
part of the Empire -isn't- damaged already. I already mentioned the loss of the
Legions, that's a huge problem. Skyrim under Ulfric could be better, or could
be much worse. As far as Jarls acting against the High King, that just doesn't
happen with the Nords. Once a High King is High King, that's the end of the
matter. It's only when there -is- no High King that things fall apart. That's
just tradition for the Nords, no matter how much they might dislike Ulfric,
once that crown is on his head, Skyrim is unified for better or worse, and
Ulfric -is- a fighter. He’s an outstanding General ( even TMII said so ) so as
far as that goes, when it comes to war, he can give the best Skyrim's got
against the Thalmor.

 

The Empire is spent though, it just simply cannot cover all it's territory with the troops it has.
It's simply impossible. Hammerfell breaking away pretty much encouraged every
other province to break away, and TMII gave them even more of an excuse. The
territory lost since the ending of the Third age astounds me, but that's
history and Skyrim is the present. Nothing I've seen or read suggest that the
Empire can survive with or without Skyrim, and it's actions in the last 100
years made me decide that honestly, it shouldn't. Even before TMII the Mede
line of Emperors were horrible. Long live the Septim's but their legacy is
gone. As I said before, may the 9 divines watch over you Martin, you were the
embodiment of what an Emperor should be, no matter how short your reign.

 

That's all the response I can give right now, it's late and I'm tired. This is a fun debate,
but I still have to side with Stormcloak's because I still believe that they're
what's best for Skyrim, and I'm siding with Skyrim as a region this time, the
Mede's made me give up on The Empire, and that's tragic, but all good things
come to an end. If only the Septim's had survived, but we cannot bring them back,
and without them The Empire is gone. I've made my point on Talos before too,
and I don't think that that can be defended. The Mede Dynasty ruined what was
once a glorious and successful union, but it's gone now, and I have to side
with what I think is best for the name of the game. If TES V carries the name
Skyrim, the what's best for Skyrim is what I'll do.

 

Ulfric's a brilliant General, a shrewd politician ( in the Nord sense at least ) and really does have the best interest of Skyrim at
heart. Torygg for all his enthusiasm I think would have ended up a puppet to
Ulfric if Ulfric hadn't killed him and Skyrim had revolted, as I said before he
damn near worshiped Ulfric. That's the tragedy there, a lot of blood could have
been saved and created an Independent Skyrim, with that good hearted but
relatively young High King still on his throne and Ulfric his chief adviser and
war leader ( and the true power behind the throne ) but apparently that wasn't
good enough for Ulfric, he wanted absolute control, and in a Nord sort of way,
it makes sense that he would. Unlike the Imperials manipulation seems to really
sit sour in a Nord's mouth, at best they distrust it, at worst they consider it
a sign of weakness ( hence the whole conflict in the first place, Ulfric claims
and many believe that the Empire was manipulating Torygg ). It replays over and
over again in the story how one of the things they despise most about the
" Mer " is that they're untrustworthy and manipulative ( which they
are to a greater or lesser extent ).

 

That's more or less the entire reasoning I've had from the beginning. The Empire needs Skyrim,
Skyrim doesn't need the Empire, and sense the game is essentially about the
fate of Skyrim, it makes sense to me to do what's best for Skyrim, even if it
means the only way to do it is to side with Ulfric. My standing evidence that
Ulfric really does put Skyrim first, in his own way, revolves around the
campaign if you side with the Empire. After Ulfric's dead and you travel to Sovngarde
you meet Ulfric's ghost and his Ghost talks only about Skyrim, mourning it's
fate, and begging you to save it. Even in death and failure, Ulfric's main
concern is his country. Whatever else he is, he -is- a patriot.

[HighkingUlfricStormcloak]

"The Emperor is getting old. Don't know how much longer he'll hang on. So is the whole Empire, for that matter. Getting old, that is. The Emperor and the legions have held the Empire together for hundreds of years. It's been a good thing, by and large. But maybe it's time for a change. Time for something young and new. What? No idea. Because I'm old. Old dog doesn't get new ideas. But maybe young folks like you should try some new ideas. I don't know. Could be messy. But change is never pretty." - Wulf, (An Aspect/ Avatar of Talos/ Tiber Septim), Morrowind, 3E 427

 

This is a quote from Tiber Septim before everything falling out.

[imperistan]

^That

[HighkingUlfricStormcloak]

My Computer is having difficulties processing images. What is it?

[imperistan]

Its not an image lol, I was just emphasizing the importance of what you posted.

[Gabryal]

Haven't logged on this for a very long time ( took a hiatus from Skyrim ) I just wanted to make sure everyone knows that Stormcloak117 is -not- me, even though he's making the exact same arguments for the Stormcloaks and assessments of the world situation that I made, including even using some of the same analogies.

 

I maintain there is only one choice for the sake of morality in this game, and it's the Stormcloaks. Anything else is akin to finding yourself in a hard spot and then collaborating with the SS in WW2. ( See Vichy France ). Once you've crossed that line, it is up to everyone, no matter how moral individually, to take a moral stand against the greater evil. The administrators and bureaucrats of the Vichy French thought they were doing what's best for their people perhaps by being puppets of the Nazi's, but the fact of the matter is that they were assassinated, snubbed, and after the war was over treated as collaborators, put on trial, and for the most part executed.

 

If the Dominion is as bad as the Nazi's ( look it up, they are ) then there is simply no reason, none, no acceptable situation, under which you sign any treaty with them. Even when England and the USA didn't know exactly -how- bad it was to say the Jews in the Third Reich they knew it was bad, and they resolved themselves to fight to the death to stop it. The Empire -knows- how bad the Dominion is and they still went to the treaty table with them. That makes the Empire about 1000 times worse than Vichy France in my mind. I've made all of these arguments before, and honestly whoever stormcloak117 is they're saying exactly what I've said before and just as well so I don't need to jump in on it again.

 

Mostly I just am writing this to say that whoever they are, they aren't me, even if they do make an amazing amount of sense.

 

Bigmagy my brother, I still can't follow your reasoning, and don't agree with you at all, and if anyone could convince me of your point of view it would be you. I just can't accept it.