The Great Imperial vs. Stormcloak Debate

[HighkingUlfricStormcloak]

Gabryal. My reason for repeating your argument is because I see no way I believe I need to improve it. I actually did edit some things but for the most part (98%) its still yours. I read your arguments and was made happy to find someone was as passionate about it as me. If I accidentally left the part in where you claimed your Major in History I want to discredit that. I am not as well educated. Sadly.

Edited February 12, 2013 by Stormcloak117

[Gabryal]

Gabryal. My reason for repeating your argument is because I see no way I believe I need to improve it. I actually did edit some things but for the most part (98%) its still yours. I read your arguments and was made happy to find someone was as passionate about it as me. If I accidentally left the part in where you claimed your Major in History I want to discredit that. I am not as well educated. Sadly.

No biggy there, I just didn't want anyone to think that I was logging in on another account to make my points again ;) I've been pretty passionately pushing the Stormcloak agenda on this thread for awhile now. Fight the good fight, I've retired for the time being :)

[HighkingUlfricStormcloak]

Roger that. I salute your previous efforts and will uphold the Stormcloak Ideals to whatever end.

[StormHammer81]

The Empire and the Legion were both very old when the Oblivion crises unfolded... Didn't stop them from defeating the armies of a Daedra prince with the help of Akatosh... Just like before with the Ayleids. Won't stop the Dragonborn from leading the Empire against the Thalmor later on.

 

Hmmm... You know, my dad is getting pretty old and my family has to jump thru hoops to take care of him. He's not always nice, not always civil, in the course of events we often are made to deal with very rude, arrogant relatives. And we are sometimes having to pay considerable out of pocket expense(s) to keep him well

 

So then my dad, like the Empire, should just be thrown into a ditch on the side of the road, right? I thought about that after reading your post. We know you Stormcloaks are very passionate about change, however if it was not for my dad I would not have gone to College and or have a good job and everything else. He's always looked out for me, even when I didn't want him to.

 

Same difference with the Empire. Empire is not perfect, not everyone even likes the Empire however, the Empire needs our help now more than ever before. That's how I felt as a Stormcloak. It's not the Imperials fault that the current Emperor was forced into making some difficult decisions, that is after all what leadership is about.

 

Imperials and Stormcloaks really just need to work together. The Thalmor are the real enemy here and the Thalmor can get to Ulfric, manipulate him just like they've been doing in Skyrim.

 

It's easy to change things, however the problem here is Ulfric's version of change was conceived and implemented by his hidden benefactor(s), the Thalmor. Even if say, he's not actively working with them, doesn't matter. Ulfric is doing their bidding. And every Imperial you kill is one less man on the line for when the sh*t starts up again. The kind of change Ulfric is promising, will end up being the new era of Elven rule in Tamriel. Elves think in long terms and whoever rules Cyrodil, *rules* Tamriel.

 

So yes, maybe you are the good guys. However, sometimes to defeat evil requires a different kind of evil. When you are bitten by a snake, do you just rip your arm out of it's mouth? Or should you stick your arm back in and remove the fangs first?

 

The Thalmor is the snake, which has dug it's fangs into the Empire and is now trying to smother it with the WGC. The snake does not care what you believe in or who you worship, unless the Empire stands together and starts putting aside it's difference(s), the Thalmor will devour all of Tamriel.

 

And by the grace of God Almighty, we have the Dragonborn, an heir of Talos and heir to the Imperial throne. Now is not the time to just give up on one of Talos's GREATEST ACCOMPLISHMENTS and a GREAT WALL against the torture, rape, murder and utterly enslavement of men by the Aldmeri Dominion. Especially afterthe fact that Skyrim has never really wanted to be apart of the Empire. Just as many Nords fought AGAINST Tiber Septim as many as fought for him.

 

Ulfric is no different. Ulfric fights for what Ulfric wants, his glory and his station, he does NOT share Talos's vision of mankind being united in a Great Empire. Really, the Stormcloaks should worship Ysgramor, not Talos, for Ulfric is not a descendant of Talos, he is of Ysgramor. And Ysgramor did the same damn thing. Same reason why the Falmer are so full of hate now, instead of showing mercy like Talos did, he pursued them even unto Solstheim and enslaved, tormented those he could get his hands on. Like the Nords in windhelm are doing to the Dark Elves.

Edited February 13, 2013 by bigmagy1981

[HighkingUlfricStormcloak]

"The Emperor is getting old. Don't know how much longer he'll hang on. So is the whole Empire, for that matter. Getting old, that is. The Emperor and the legions have held the Empire together for hundreds of years. It's been a good thing, by and large. But maybe it's time for a change. Time for something young and new. What? No idea. Because I'm old. Old dog doesn't get new ideas. But maybe young folks like you should try some new ideas. I don't know. Could be messy. But change is never pretty." - Wulf, (An Aspect/ Avatar of Talos/ Tiber Septim), Morrowind, 3E 427

 

Thats my response when it comes to change.

 

I wish the Empire could be saved but its just not worth it at this point. My Grandfather is in the same boat as your father and he told me that if things get any worse that he wants me to put him out of his misery.

 

Talos himself would enjoy seeing change. Especially at this point. He fought for people not for the Empire.

He fought to unite Tamriel not the Empire.

He fought to be Emperor not for the Empire.

He fought for Men not the Empire.

[StormHammer81]

Well, my dad is not quite that old, he has some good years left. Empire does too.

 

You keep saying the Empire is old, that's a poor excuse for your argument. Now that we've picked up a province (Morrowind) and hopefully Hammerfell will come back before it's too late, that would be a total of (5) provinces to face down the Thalmor's 2.5 provinces. Not to mention all the friction going on in the Dominion behind the scences.

 

And I will square with you.

 

IF it were not that Titus Mede II would resign

IF it were not that Dragonborn was heir to the Imperial throne

IF it were not that the four remaining provinces were very thriving, prosperous, rich, well-armed urban centers...

 

Then you would be right. However, the Empire has everything it needs to survive and start taking territory back.

 

And, technically speaking, we still have Morrowind, the Argonians did not take down Morrowind as previously thought, even by myself.

 

If Skyrim leaves the Empire, then Morrowind loses Imperial reinforcements and they will fall to the Argonians, who originally were instigated to move against Morrowind by the Thalmor.

 

Talos is right. There needs to be change and a new Emperor with his head in the right place could accomplish this.

 

Also, the Empire IS all of these things.

 

The Empire IS Tamriel.

The Empire IS the Emperor.

And the Empire, IS man.

 

Or it will be Thalmor.

Edited February 13, 2013 by bigmagy1981

[HighkingUlfricStormcloak]

The Empire is not man if it allows the elves to kill as they please. The Empire isnt an empire anymore. The empire of Talos died with Martin and the Savior of Kvatch. The Empire died again at the singing of the WGC. As said by Galmar. The Empire died when it surrendered to the Elves. The Empire I remember never surrendered. As said by Ulfric.

 

When a government allows another faction to kill the very people it swore to protect then it loses the right to rule.

 

Skyrim is self sufficient. It can hold its own as it has done in the past. The Dark elves live in Skyrim and Solstheim. Morrowind is gone.

 

Hammerfell is obviously self sufficient. Thats plain to see.

 

Cyrodil is the only province that relies on the surrounding nations. I remember Imperial guards shouting "By the Nine" and Ulfric shouting "Talos Smite you!" These are things that fill me with hope. Ulfric represents a strong Nord. Tullius attempts to surrender in the end. At his death. He dies a cowards death. Just as he lived in life.

And don't give me the "He's an old man. How do you expect him to stand up against Ulfric?" Because then he obviously isn't fit to be a general.

 

I wouldn't even dare to think of trying to save This Empire.

 

During the American Revolution we broke off from Brittian because we felt we weren't being represented correctly. Not just through taxation but also through the Court system.

 

Skyrim doesn't need the Empire. The Empire will die either way. But if it wins in Skyrim then Skyrim falls with it. The Empire needs Skyrim.

 

My grandfather wouldnt stand to know that he would be the cause of my failure. The Empire should realize this and allow Skyrim to become independent. But no, they dont see Skyrim as a land of people they see Skyrim as a resource.

 

Tullius represents the weakness of the Empire. If you side with the Empire Ulfric doesnt give in. In Sovngarde he looks for you and begs you to save Skyrim. He doesnt b&@*$ about you siding with the Empire. He doesnt b&@*$ about you killing him. He bitches that he wasnt able to save his country. He asks you to do this for him. Save Skyrim.

 

TES V: Skyrim isnt about saving the Empire its about saving Skyrim.

Edited February 13, 2013 by Stormcloak117

[StormHammer81]

Ok, well... just because someone says something in the game, making a Declarative Statement, does not make it true.

 

Ulfric says this, Galmar says that, Titus Mede II says whatever, it's their OPINION. Just like I could say something like, "Ulfric died when the Thalmor broke him during interrogation". Now, this statement is no more or less true than anything Ulfric or Galmar have said. That's their *opinion* and you citizen, are welcome to follow them if you wish.

 

Sometimes in history, a surrender or a fall is necessary but not always permanent. And othertimes, cowards who lose their nerve have brought shame on both themselves and their country. It happens. Just because Titus Mede II made concessions with the Thalmor doesn't mean the Empire is dead. It means it's in trouble, it means it's being mis-guided, it means the Empire is faltering. Not dead.

 

"For a living dog is better than a dead lion." And who knows, in the end perhaps the White Gold Concordant was for the best. It helped Hammerfell straighten itself out after that Civil War they had going on there.

 

The WGC allowed Cyrodil to take back no less than (4) major cities it lost from the Thalmor without bloodshed.

 

According to Elisif's court, Skyrim is not as self-sufficient as we are lead to believe. They may have plenty of mineral resources, however Skyrim is dependent on Cyrodil for it's food supply. Skyrim's economy as seen in MANY different cities is dependent on trade with Cyrodil and the East Empire Company. Even the Stormcloak guards thank you for restoring the East Empire Company.

 

The only reason why Hammerfell is still around is because an Imperial General was *gracious enough* to leave an almost entire legion behind to help the Alik'r. If you read thru the Great War, the Alik'r acted as Support for the Legion. Without the Legion's assistance, the Alik'r would have lost. Read it. And furthermore, Hammerfell was torn apart from a Civil War until the Thalmor started killing them. I would venture that things in Hammerfell are still a mess, as most of the Southern/Central part of that country is now in ruins, still recovering from the war. It's plan to see Hammerfell is not ready for another war. Neither is Cyrodil.

 

Tullius. Tullius told the Elenwen to go f*ck herself at Helgen when she came to try and barter for Ulfric's stay of execution. Tullius out smarted Ulfric on several occasions, including the ambush which brought him to Helgen. You're welcome to whatever opinion about Tullius, however he gets the job done. And unlike Ulfric, Tullius has NOT been broken by the Thalmor. Tullius's strategy against the Stormcloaks is also working, capturing the important landmarks on the chessboard and let Ulfric self-defeat himself. Tullius is actually a very good General, he even apologies for what happened at Helgen. About him surrendering, he did everything he could and I don't hold that against him. He fought to the end and he stood his ground, same as Ulfric when I helped bring him to justice.

 

Furthermore, this is not about The American Revolution. This is the CIVIL WAR. States right vs Federalism. And in the end, I must agree with Lincoln. This is the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA rather, THE UNITED EMPIRE OF TALOS. Not the divided states, not the states with/without slavery or "separate but not equal". And we are all citizens of his Great Empire, and it is our duty to save the Empire and right the wrongs.

 

It is not written in stone that the Empire of Talos must die. The Empire came back from Pelagius, Jagar Tharn, Oblivion crises, Great War, etc, etc, etc... Again, just because you Declare something in a sentence does not make it so.

 

"TES V: Skyrim isnt about saving the Empire its about saving Skyrim." - This piece is 110% NOT RELEVANT to the discussion and it is a false statement. Because saving the Empire is apart of TESV. Once you've saved the world from Alduin, life goes on and vice versa.

 

Finally a word of advice. When on forums like this, please use your own original thoughts. No need to re-gergitate what someone else has already posted. You may not like me, the other Imperials or what we stand for, however we make up our own minds and we have facts and passion to backup our opinion(s). I have never heard an Imperial get on here and start talking from the mouth of Tullius or Titus Mede or Legate Rikke. I will say this, to be an Imperial these days, you have to have an open mind. :D

Edited February 13, 2013 by bigmagy1981

[HighkingUlfricStormcloak]

Bring him to justice? For what? Ulfric is fighting to free his people from a government that is plainly to weak to rule and Ulfric didn't surrender right before he was brought Helgen. As is stated by the Stormcloak Soldier in Sovngarde.

 

Tullius represents the Imperial weakness. Thats not my opinion its fact.

 

Your looking at this from a stand point at where you think that Ulfric murdered the High King. I look at it Objectively. You look at it Subjectively. I can say I have never changed sides where as you can. You were turned by Gabryal. I'm not meaning to attack you I'm just saying that at one point you realized your argument was false.

 

Its FREEDOM OR DEATH

 

FOR SKYRIM

 

FREEDOM OR SOVNGARDE

 

VICTORY OR SOVNGARDE

 

The only thing the Imperials shout it seems is "FOR THE EMPEROR"

 

Why? Why fight for a leader who turns his back on the people that saved him. He doesnt even seem to care. Skyrim isnt his homeland.

 

You want to attempt to preserve an already dead empire. The Empire ruled by the Septims would never have submitted to even a temporary over ruling by such a tyrannical government. They Cared about the people, TMII cares about the Medes. Titus Mede the first took the Imperial Throne by force. TMII lost it the same way.

Edited February 13, 2013 by Stormcloak117

[HighkingUlfricStormcloak]

I repost Gabryals arguments simply because they are the essence of what is right. I see plenty of other pro imperials and they say "Ulfrics racist! The Imperials look cooler" And things like that.