The Great Imperial vs. Stormcloak Debate

[StormHammer81]

Ok, here's the truth.

 

1) I was originally a Stormcloak until I heard how we're going to Rape/Pillage Whiterun and shove a sword thru Jarl Baalgruff.

2) I am not directly in support of the Empire, I am on the side of Whiterun. A neutral, equiv of a "bystander" hold/city whom also allow open Talos worship and free speech. It is a conflict of interest for Ulfric to attack Whiterun.

3) Even now, I want to go Stormcloak however, this is also what the THALMOR WANT. And, since the Thalmor want the Empire dead, that kinda makes the Empire innocent and blameless because the game is rigged to destroy them. And, according to the Dossier and everything else this is not just any Civil War. This was planned by the Thalmor and is being pushed on everyone with their approval.

 

I cannot condemn the Empire to death for what Titus Mede II has done. He WILL PAY for his sins and "his" Empire will die with him. Loyal citizens of the Empire should not pay and because of these things, I say the Empire deserves a fighting chance. If I support Ulfric, then the Empire dies and what freedom? what? even he says in the end we have to look over our sholdiers in case Empire or Thalmor attack. Ulfric's rebellion will accomplish nothing but just make everything worse and turn the nations of man against each other.

 

Finally, Morrowind is not dead. Quite the opposite in fact, go to Solstheim and they'll fill you in on the details. I know, I know, I was in the dark on their status as well. Blacklight and most of Morrowind made it, just not the southern area.

 

And I am proud to serve on the front lines against the Empire's enemies, with candle in hand, looking forward to the day when the line of Talos reclaims the Imperial throne and brings with it the salvation of the Empire.

 

 

 

Good Night!

Edited February 13, 2013 by bigmagy1981

[HighkingUlfricStormcloak]

Well I agree that the Thalmor want the civil war but they DO NOT want a Stormcloak OR Imperial victory. If within the lore, the Empire somehow survives and gives recompense for the atrocities it has put forth then I will be slightly less infuriated by them. But I will never admit I was wrong. I know I'm right. I know we Stormcloaks are right. We will get Freedom or Sovngarde.

 

You want the Empire to survive. I respect that.

 

I, however, want Skyrims freedom.

 

I love the Nords. My heritage hales from Leif Erickson and Eric the Red. I will follow my gut instinct.

 

I have never admitted this but my first profile I went for the Imperials. But when I retrieved the Jagged Crown I felt like a traitor. Elisef is a puppet of the Empire. Tullius admits that. Everyone in Solitude admits that. The citizens of Windhelm gave Ulfric his throne. Even though its given through being the heir of the previous Jarl.

 

I will gladly condemn the Empire for the actions of its leader. The Leader represents the whole. If you want to serve him then so be it but I will die before I follow him or his "legions" no matter what you say.

 

I respect you for sticking with your guns. Be it that you have changed sides.

 

In the end the Nords will suffer. But they will suffer less with Ulfric. Ulfric and the Nords want to take the fight to the elves. They are war like people. The Imperials want to drink their wine and sit in their homes. The Nords have the will to continue the fight. The Imperials lost it when they lost the Imperial city. The Empire is no more, thats . . . . . a fact.

 

The Empire will die no matter what. Talos saw it. Hammerfell saw it. Now Skyrim sees it.

 

I fight for Skyrim. You fight for the Empire.

Edited February 13, 2013 by Stormcloak117

[StormHammer81]

I fight for Skyrim. You fight for the Empire.

Either way, your fighting for Skyrim. The Empire won't make it without Skyrim. And furthermore I don't think Skyrim would get very far without the Empire.

 

Once TMII is no more and this Concordant nightmare is over, which the Empire will be at war with the Thalmor soon enough in an upcoming DLC, we won't just be fighting for Skyrim, we'll be fighting for Tamriel.

 

Skyrim is a beautiful place, but so to is Hammerfell and Highrock and every other province of the Empire. And the Legion is the only thing standing in the way of the Thalmor burning everything to the ground.

Edited February 13, 2013 by bigmagy1981

[HighkingUlfricStormcloak]

I wish that were true but it simply isnt. The legion just doesnt have the strength or will to put up the fight they think they can.

 

The Empire is crumbling. Very, very fast. Skyrim wants to secede and its their right to do so. The legion is occupying Skyrim and expecting the Nords to just do the b&@*$ work for the Empire. Without Skyrim and Hammerfell the Empire dies. And this Empire needs to be killed for the wrongs it has done its people. If you cant accept that than you are just too blind to see what we see.

 

And for that I pity you. The Empire just doesnt have the strength. I have said it 100 times and Ill say it 100 more times.

[Gabryal]

Did just want to log in long enough to reference something said earlier bigmagy where you were incorrect.

 

You referred to this as a civil war

 

by definition Empire's can't have civil wars, as by Definition an Empire is a central state and it's vassal states, whereas a civil war is defined by a power struggle within a state itself.

 

The British Empire was an Empire because it had it's central State ( England, and after time the United Kingdom ) and it's vassal states ( at it's height Canada, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa, India, the West African Coast ).

 

The Roman Empire was an Empire. The central State being the Roman Province, and the Varied states under it's control, at one point consisting of Espana, Gaul Britian, Africana ( North Africa ) Parthia, Scythia, Judea, and others.

 

What is distinctive about a nation and an Empire is this, a nation has political entities within it that represent themselves to the nation, and empire has political entities that represent the empire.

 

For example, the Duke of York represents York to the United Kingdom, the Raj of India represents the United Kingdom to India. See the difference?

 

Now there is no doubt that in The Empire in Tamriel that it is in fact an Empire, so this by definition isn't a civil war, it's a rebellion. The desire of the people of Skyrim is to overthrow the Imperial power represented in this case by General Tullius and thus return itself to a state of self-reliance. If this was a civil war, say the US civil war, it would be the representatives of Skyrim withdrawing their representation to the Empire from the Empire. Skyrim has -no- representation to the Empire. It's not like the Senator from Skyrim declared itself independent then walked out, there isn't anyone in The Imperial City that was elected or appointed by the people of Skyrim to represent it's interests, and there never was. That's just a fact.

 

To call this a civil war is rather ungracious to the people of Skyrim, as they were never on an equal footing with Cyrodil when it came to the politics of the Empire, if the Empire truly wanted to keep Skyrim they could have pursued a policy something like the British Commonwealth, where the individual aspects of the Commonwealth determined their own destiny with the one exception of who their Head of State was. For example in New Zealand, Australia, and Canada, each nation determines it's own destiny, the only thing holding them together being the Head of State, who is the Queen of the United Kingdom. This is not the case here

 

So this is a rebellion, with the overall goal being to create a nation independent of the Cyrodillian Dominated Empire. This puts quite a different outlook on the whole situation in this one way. A Rebellion is an attempt to earn by whatever means, whether it's Ghandi and his approach of non-violence ( which only worked because the people in the UK had at that time a strong value for the idea of Justice ) or violence ( which is more or less the only way to go about it with the Empire, because it's apparent just by signing the WGC that the Empire has very little if any respect for the idea of Justice ). If we're going to all agree that Skyrim has at least -some- right to determine it's own place in the world, if we're going to assume that the Nords are of themselves a people who deserve the right to determine their own destiny, then really they've been backed into a corner where they either lose their right to exist as an independent people, with their own culture and heritage, or they fight. It's as simple as that.

 

It never had to be that way, I've pointed out at least two dozen ways it could have been different, but it wasn't the case and that is how we find ourselves where we are today. It began with the WGC ( which benefited no one except Cyrodil, this is pretty clear. The only territories that were recovered in it were in the Nation of Cyrodil itself, the vassal nations for the most part all caught it in the shorts ) and as a result little choice was left but to make one of two choices, either give in and bow to the will of the Imperials and loose your cultural identity, or fight. Since non-violent resistance to the Imperials was futile, violent resistance was the only option to those who would hold onto their cultural identity. The first were the Redguards, now we have the Nords, and it's as simple as that.

 

The question of course is, whether it is right or wrong for a people to fight for their right to hold onto their own identity. A person can make all the arguments they want about any other issue, but if you do not address this issue. If a person is unable to say I'm pro-Imperial and as such I agree that it is wrong for -any- group to fight for it's right to fight to protect it's own culture ( I'm not just talking about Nords here, I'm talking about anyone. If you say it isn't right for Skyrim, then it wasn't right for Hammerfell either, and should this game have taken place in High Rock, or Orisumm ( orc place it's early for me and I can't remember the name ) that it isn't right for the Orcs or the Bretons either. Essentially you have to come right out and say " It isn't right for anyone to be anything but what the Imperials want them to be ) If you can't agree to that, then you -can't- be pro-Imperial, because being pro-Imperial means that you are -exactly- that, you can't have one without the other. It would be like saying I'm for with the United Nations so long as everyone acts like they are Americans. The two are mutually exclusive.

 

So here's the deal for the pro-Imperial folks, you simply cannot single out the Nords ( claims of racism, etc, don't care it may be -all- true but it doesn't matter, if you want them to change and accept Imperial dictate and thus stop fighting for their culture and land, then you have to do the same for every other Imperial citizen regardless of Race. Stop worshiping your Gods Mr. Orc because frankly it's not what the Imperials do and they said the Nords shouldn't do it, so you shouldn't be allowed to do it either ) I get really tired of people talking about Nord this and Nord that, because it isn't about the Nords it's about whether or not people have the right to fight for their culture and land.

 

Little has been said about whether or not Hammerfell has the right too, it did, and it won, and since it's over no one really gives it much thought. However what they did was rebel ( it's even called the Hammerfell rebellion in the lore, hell I think you can find a book in the game called exactly that ). So it comes down to this, the Nords either have a right to fight ( not even to necessarily succeed, but a right to fight ) for their culture and homes, or they don't. If you're pro-Imperial you believe they don't, because that's what the Imperials say, you can't half-measure it and say " Well they have the right to fight, but unfortunately if they succeed this or that will happen so we can't allow them too " if you're pro-Imperial then follow the Imperial line.

 

I think that's what I find most infuriating with pro-Imp's honestly, and you're not guiltless in this bigmagy, you want to divide up the pro-Imp party line. With the pro-Stormcloaks we might say " No we don't agree 100% with Ulfric's attitude, no we don't agree 100% with this or that aspect of the way the war was conducted ( Siege of Whiterun for example ) but the one thing we can -all- say is we agree in the cause. We agree that Nords are a race with their own culture, their own traditions, their own religion, and their own lands, and that they have a right to fight for them. " This solidifies the pro-Storm side. The pro-Imp side is all over the map with it's opinions on to -why- they are pro-Imp but they never come out and say they toe the party line and say " No, we do not agree that the Nords have a right to rebel, even if it is to protect their culture, religion, traditions, and land." and I'm sorry Pro-Imp's no matter what way you try to rectify it ( It's one of the reason I feel for Rikke, the Battle-Born's, Balgruuf and the list goes on ) once the WGC was signed, the Nord way of life was under attack. Hell if you go with the Imperial guy out of Helgen one of the things his Uncle says right off the bat is " There was a time when everyone home had their little statue of Talos and then the Thalmor came etc etc " essentially what he's saying there is this " There was a time when we were allowed to practice our culture in peace, but after the WGC was signed the Empire invited the Thalmor in and they denied us this aspect of our culture "

 

That's pretty much as clear an attack on someone's culture as I've ever seen, the classic " conversion at the end of the sword " aspect of Crusader fame. It's hard to get a clearer attack on a people's culture and heritage than when people kill you for following it.

 

So here's the deal, I'll accept -anyone- who want's to be pro-Imp so long as they say, straight up and no BS surrounding it " I agree that it is necessary to attack and destroy the culture of the Nords or -anyone else- to preserve the Empire, and that the Nords do not in fact have a right to fight to protect their culture, and if they do fight to protect their culture I will kill them " If you can come right out and say that, flat out, then I'll go " OK, you're pro-Imp, and as much as I disagree with you, I'll accept that about you " you can then proceed from there to give all your reasons why you think it's the best path, and I'll listen to them.

 

If you won't admit to the above though, I really am not interested your reasons ( sorry bigmagy, but you've known me awhile and known this has always been true ) likewise if you're on the pro-Storm side and you're not willing to say " I believe that a person has the right to fight and kill to protect it's traditions and culture, including slaughtering those who may not have a stake in the fight should they get in my way, that I believe that a right of a people to protect their heritage is paramount to all other considerations, and regardless of the cost, is worth the cost. Including things that individually I find repugnant " I don't buy your pro-Storm arguments and I don't want to hear the reasons why.

 

War is -not- pretty, and that's just a fact, so I'll come out and say it.

 

I don't like it, but I see it as necessary, for Whiterun to be sacked, with all the horror that comes to a city when it's walls are breached and soldiers storm into the streets filled with civilians.

 

I don't like it, but I see it as necessary, to support the most effective war leader that steps forward regardless of their own personal faults in other areas. Since Ulfric is that person, I accept his racism, his ambition no how bloody, and any other negative aspect of his personality. I would have supported William Wallace too, and this is a guy that History has recorded as literally skinning the men he killed and then tanning that skin and making it into a belt. This is historical fact, and I'd have followed a guy who wore human-skin belts. Ulfric isn't that bad relatively.

 

I don't like it, but I accept -anything- short of denying another people the right to their own culture by force of arms that is necessary to protect the Nords heritage and culture. No matter how bad it is. The right of the Nords to defend their own culture and heritage supersedes all else in Skyrim.

 

There I've said it, I've taken the pledge, I'm a Stormcloak. Now let's see the pro-Imp people say the same, as I've listed above. I want to see pro-Imp's say " No, Nords do not have a right to their culture and heritage " If I don't see it, I'm not interested in their reasons for being pro-Imp because frankly they've missed the boat. There are certain things that you have to be before you can claim to be from a group. I'm not black so I'm not a member of the Black Panthers, because I miss one of the big requirements in belonging to that group ( just an example, for god's sake no one give me an opinion on what they think of that statement, I truly don't care ). So whatever your argument is for being pro-Imp I want people to own up to the very -basics- of being pro-Imp before they go on with the rest of their reasons.

 

If you can't accept the basics I'm not interested in the abstract, and for the longest time now I've had to go " Well I accept both the basics and the more personal reasons to be a Stormcloak " and had to defend that position from the " Well I can see all the reasons not to be pro-Imp but there is -this particular- reason to be pro-Imp and that's why I am ". It simply isn't a fair fight for us Stormcloaks to have to defend our positions while accepting all the negative aspects that come along with it from Imperials who only give one reason for being Imperial but don't jump in with all the negative parts of being an Imperial.

 

It's one reason I retired from this forum, because I started getting really frustrated with people not willing to go " I'm an Imperial and I'm proud of it! Down with Nordic culture and identity! " because if you don't believe that, if you don't think that's the best thing, then frankly you're an Imperial on paper only. You may regret the necessity for it, but it's come to that. To be an Imperial is to stand against the Nords right to fight for their culture and traditions, and if you think it's not then you don't understand what's happening in Skyrim. What did you think if the Imperials won then all the reasons the Nords rebelled in the first place would go away? That all of a sudden the Imperials would go " Well, now that we've won let's give you all the things you were fighting for in the first place ". Bleh.

 

So let's hear it from the Imperials, write your belief that you think the Nords shouldn't be allowed to fight for their culture and traditions, write that you believe that if necessary the Nordic traditions and culture should be destroyed in order to preserve the empire, because if you don't think that, then you aren't an Imperial. The key words being " if necessary " because you're halfway there by siding with the Imperials, because if you're willing to fight against their right to rebel in defense of their culture and traditions, the next step -could- be to eradicate that culture and those traditions, because why not, after all if you fight against their right to fight for it, you might as well fight to destroy it all together.

 

Just accept that that's what you're fighting against, you're looking a Nord in the eye and saying " No, you don't have the right to fight for this " you can add your " and here's why " after that, but if you don't begin your sentence with that, I'm just not interested in what comes after.

 

Listen, I'm tired and it's not even noon now, and I've been harsh in this post but frankly I'm so very very very tired of going over the same damn ground over and over again. I'm a Stormcloak, yes, and I accept the downsides of taking that path.

 

The Imperials by and large however -never- own up to the downsides. They aren't willing to admit the horror they bring to the table, but are really quick to bring up all the negative things that being a Stormcloak means. Well here's the negative thing about being an Imperial, you're fighting against people's right to have their own culture and traditions. You're -oppressing- people, you're telling them they don't have a right to their traditions and culture. That's a -fact-, whatever else may be a " good " thing about being an Imperial, you first and foremost have to admit to yourself and to the world that you're first and foremost an oppressor. That's just a simple fact, and if an Imperial can't own up to that, I'm just not going to discuss anything else with them, I'm too tired to do so, as I said before I retired from this thread ( and took a hiatus from the game even ) due to in part having to argue my points from the position of a Stormcloak who accepts that all isn't shiny and righteous in my camp, but the people who argue'd against me liked to pretend it -was- all shiny and pretty in theirs.

 

It doesn't take much to get really sick of that. So I want to hear from only Imperials who admit they're oppressors, and then they can give all the good reasons they have for being one. If you can do that then I'll take your arguments seriously. If not, I was fine in my retirement ( Damnit Stormcloak, I was happy in my retirement, then you came and fought where I had been fighting before, and I couldn't leave a brother on his own, if we ever come out on top of this debate I'm going to kick your ass ;) )

 

/rant off

[StormHammer81]

LONG LIVE THE EMPIRE!!!

Edited February 21, 2013 by StormHammer81

[Gabryal]

Thank you.

 

If it's Stormcloak it's this " I believe that defending the right of any group of people to fight for their culture and heritage is worth rebellion, and with it total war, with all the madness and horror that comes with it "

 

If it's Imperial it's " I believe that maintaining the empire is worth oppressing all other people not of Imperial decent, and that should they rebel it is worth total war, with all the madness and horror that comes with it "

 

I am a Stormcloak: I believe that defending the right of any group of people to fight for their culture and heritage is worth rebellion, and with it total war, with all the madness and horror that comes with it.

 

I plant my standard here upon this ground and I will not be moved, I will fight and die where I stand. So I give the oath and loyalty to the side of the Stormcloaks.

[StormHammer81]

Ok, will think it over and get back to you soon on this.

LONG LIVE THE EMPIRE!!!

Edited February 23, 2013 by StormHammer81

[Gabryal]

An old post was deleted here, it was a reference to a conversation about the difference between the US Civil War and the Rebellion in Skyrim, that is what bigmagy is referring too, the actually text of it matters only to bigmagy, since he was the one who it was directed too. Considering that his post that brought the response on has also been changed, the post that was here is no longer relevant.

That being said, you are right bigmagy, without you our convictions would not have been tested to the point of clarity of thought and wisdom that they have achieved. Through the crucible of that fire we are stronger in spirit than we would ever have been without you. Even better however is that the provider of that flame that forged our steel so tightly has thrown down the standard of the Imperial tyrant and crossed the field of battle to join the Ranks of those who fight for the right simply to live as we choose.

We will not always be right about everything, we will not always agree with each other, we will not be perfect, but we will have the right to make our own mistakes and not have our lives dictated by an Emperor on a throne who cares more about his own power than our own lives and traditions.

Once more into the breach my comrades, for TALOS and FREEDOM!

Edited February 14, 2013 by Gabryal

[StormHammer81]

@Gabryal

 

"I believe that defending the right of any group of people to fight for their culture and heritage is worth rebellion, and with it total war, with all the madness and horror that comes with it."

 

" I believe that maintaining the empire is worth oppressing all of it's citizens, and that should they rebel it is worth total war, with all the madness and horror that comes with it."

I respect you, I like you, hell I'd probally even let you f*ck my sister, if I had one. And no, I am not accusing you of any wrong doing.

LONG LIVE THE EMPIRE!!!

Edited February 23, 2013 by StormHammer81