The Great Imperial vs. Stormcloak Debate

[Aocollision]

Imperials. Simply because the best reasons for joining the stormcloaks aren't as good as they look.

 

1. Execution:Sure they are about to chop off your head at the beginning. But look at the circumstances, you're an unknown person in the vicinity of Ulfric Stormcloak and his top lieutenants. If I was leading the ambush, I would've grabbed the random immigrant there too (but maybe that's just me). This isn't the best excuse for the Legion, but it should help explain why they wanted to kill you. General Tullius didn't get where he was without being very thourough.

 

2. Empire is weak:The Thalmor are in charge. The Empire is at an all-time low. But they're still the best hope for Tamriel (unless you want to be with the Dominion). Anyone whining about how the Empire agreed to the truce should go find The Great War book in Skyrim. The Empire agreed to these conditions after they lost over half the people fighting for them. It was either surrender or die fighting the dominion. Titus Mede II merely signed the Concordat because it was the best option in the short-term, so the army could consolidate, gain strength, and take the fight to the Dominion later.

 

3. Independance: This is overrated. All over the province, you'll find outsiders whining about how godforsaken the land is, how cruel the guards are. Skyrim relies on the Empire for economic reasons, and without it would wither, to some extent. I doubt that the Thalmor could/would take it though. The nationalist attitude is everywhere and is negative in nearly every aspect. Guards in whiterun complain about a redguard mercenary walking on the streets. The Dunmer are shunted to the Grey Quarter, which is just a slum now. Every non-Nord suffers from this. Go racism!

 

FYI, I joined the Imperials by chance. I was running around Helgen for a good minute before I found Ralof, somehow ditched him for Hadvar. I don't regret it. :P

[Rumanchu]

Everyone seems to forget that High Rock is still part of the Empire. If Skyrim secedes, then Cyrodiil is cut off from High Rock and the Empire basically ceases to exist.

 

The way I see it, the war has three possible outcomes: Imperial victory, Stormcloak victory, or indefinite stalemate. Indefinite stalemate is the most advantageous to the Thalmor, so that rules out simply not joining the war. So now the choice is between the other two options is better for Tamriel, as in, worse for the Thalmor.

 

Keep in mind that I said TAMRIEL, not just SKYRIM. The Stormcloaks have reasons for fighting for an independent Skyrim that are valid from a certain point of view. However, the issue with their nationalism is that focus is on their nation only. They are not thinking about what is best for ALL of the races all across Tamriel, not just the Nords of Skyrim. If the Stormcloaks win, Tamriel will be completely divided between various independent and nationalistic provinces who will have to waste time and resources organizing against the Thalmor threat - and I'm certain some races will be reluctant to cooperate with others, further damaging the allied cause. If the Stormcloaks are put down, the Empire can lick its wounds and prepare to strike back.

 

They are not under the heel of the Thalmor quite as much as people think - the Great War was fought to a stalemate, with the Imperial City liberated but the armed forces of both sides utterly devastated. Titus Mede accepted the treaty because true Imperial victory - true defeat of the Aldmeri Dominion - would require an invasion of the Summerset Isle, something of which the Empire simply was not capable. The Stormcloaks can be all gung-ho, claiming that fighting and dying with honor is better than living in submission, but the reality is that the Empire had foresight and did what it had to do to survive - and Tamriel needs a strong Empire. The Golden Age of the Septim dynasty was the freest, most peaceful, and most prosperous Tamriel had ever been. But before "The Empire Strikes Back", it needs "A New Hope" - namely, the Dovahkiin ending the unnecessary and shortsighted Stormcloak rebellion and keeping the Empire strong enough to defeat the single greatest threat to the world since the Oblivion Crisis.

Edited December 31, 2011 by Rumanchu

[DeathWarrior]

Despite wearing Stormcloak armor, my character hasn't officially joined any side yet. But the side I choose definitely will be the Stormcloaks. I'll explain:

 

My character is a nord, but if he wasn't he might stay out of the whole civil war. Attempting to execute a character who is a nord and that character is at least 99% likely to become a Stormcloak. (In my opinion)

 

I might not be entirely knowledgeable on the subject due to not being very far in the game yet, but what if the Stormcloaks win and allow for the formation of (or form themselves) a multi-nation military alliance? Just because some are possibly nationalists doesn't necessarily mean they would be against some sort of military alliance. It may be difficult, but it's far from impossible (Again just my opinion).

 

The Redguards of Hammerfell were able to fend off the Thalmor by themselves, so maybe the Stormcloaks would at least allow them to send advisers to teach them effective tactics against the Thalmor. Nationalist attitudes might make it difficult, but again not impossible.

 

I'll probably stay away from this topic until I've played further into the game, then make a new post updating my opinions and most likely making new arguements for the Stormcloaks!

[SilentResident]

Everybody agrees that the White Gold Concordat (and the ban of Talos' worship) was made due to the Pyrrhic victory of the Empire against the Thalmor.

Do you think if the Empire had the chance to defeat the Thalmor, could it accept a such Concordat? Of course no.

 

I recommend siding with the Empire, because, you are the Dragonborn, not just a hero. You know what this means? A new potential Emperor who can unite the Empire and strike back the Thalmor. Every player should keep in mind:

 

1) -History teaches us that the weak (Empire) tends to accept the conditions of the strong (Thalmor), but ONLY TEMPORARILY. Which means that the ban of the Talo's worship is not permanent - is a small temporary sacrifice against a bigger but possibly PERMANENT threat of the ruthless rule of Thalmor.

 

2) -Both the Empire and Ulfric Stormcloak are corrupt by the time of the Dragonborn's emerge. But the Empire is more capable of fighting the Thalmor than the Stormcloaks can do. Why? Because the empire is international, while the Stormcloaks are provincial rebels who give no s*** what happens to neighboring provinces. The Empire is something that has to do with the fate of Tamriel against Thalmor while the Stormcloaks only care for Skyrim.

 

3) -While the Emperor Titus Mede proved to be a stupid Emperor who does not gives value to the heritage of the Septim Dynasty and the dignity of their rule, at least we can recognize in him his instinct for survival and his efforts to keep the Thalmor threat at bay, and give the Empire's army some time to recover from exhaustion of the battle, and gain some powers before it fights back against something worsen than him: the Thalmors's future tyrannic rule of Tamriel. On the other hand, the Leader of the Stormcloaks, Ulfric, is using the whole situation, not really for saving Skyrim from the Thalmor, but for his OWN aspirations! A such shame. Its even worsen than the Concordat agreement between the Emperor and the Thalmor. Ulfric is arrogant, ambitious and uses the hope of other people for freedom of religion to his own interests. If that was not enough, even if Ulric dies and he fails to become the next High King, his efforts only prove helpful for the Thalmor's seek to weakening their top 1# threat of the Thalmor tyranny's expansion over Tamriel: the Empire. The High Elves are not pleased with the White Gold Concordat. In your visit in the Thalmor Embassy, one of the Thalmor officials reveals to you that the Thalmor intended to place the other races where they deserve to be: in the dirt slums along with the pigs. Doesn't this reminds you of Nazi and the Aria race? And don't tell me that the Empire is happy with that! The empire may be in its decline, but it won't forget all those manners of atrocities that were carried out on the innocent populace by the vengeful Thalmor army, when they conquered the Imperial City...

 

4) -The Empire despite its current corrupt and pathetic status, is better than the Thalmor, because its not the Thalmor. Thats big difference and important. The Empire tracks its roots back to the age of the Dragonborn Tiber Septim, and history shows that a Dragonborn can change the outcome of a battle: With the hope and the power of the new Dragonborn, a new era of peace can emerge for the Empire, and in extent, Tamriel - Our dragonborn for the throne of the Empire can correct the wrongdoings of the Mede Dynasty and unite all nations against the Nazi Thalmors.

 

5) -Every player here rightfully has his bitter for the Empire-Thalmor treaty known as "the White Gold Concordat" - and the Ban of Talos's worshipping. But we have to remind ourselves: All the empires, when they are in their decline, without a true hero who can unite the provinces against the biggest enemy of the world, can do some temporary sacrifices just to recover from battle, gain strength, and fight back. We shoudln't abandon the Imperial Empire right in its worst time - what the empire needs is not Mede. Is the Skyrim's Dragonborn, who can open the way and lead the empire to a new age of free religion, prosperity and peace,

 

6) -The Thalmor seeks to WEAKEN the Empire, as much as possible, and they are so happy that the Stormcloak right helps in their plans (read the book in the Thalmor Embassy outside of Solitude - In one of the books found in the Embassy, a Thalmor official is certain that the civil war between the Imperial Empire and the Stormcloaks, the longer it lasts, the better for the Thalmor. A long civil war can only deplete the resources of both Empire and Stormcloaks. For the Thalmor, a weakened and civil-wreched Empire or Stormcloaks is much easier to defeat. In the Book, the official also suggests the Thalmor agents to not help the one or the other side in the war - let them screw themselves, so the Thalmor can take the (civil-wrecked) Skyrim, and then Tamriel, much more easier! If you ask me, I dare to say that the true High Elven aspirations behind the ban of Talos' worshipping may has NOTHING to do with the fact Talos was a Human (The Nords and the Imperials are of the Human race, and the High Elves don't like a Human God standing equal to the Eight Divines). I am certain that the true goal of the Thalmor forcing the Empire to accept the White Gold Concordat and the ban of Talos worship more has to do with the fact that this way, the Thalmor can weaken its enemy, the Empire, from the background - secretly, peacefully, and quietly. An empire that collapses peacefully is much easier for the High Elves to overtake. Through the civil unrests the White Gold Concordat's ban of Talos worship can spread across the territories of the Empire (such as Skyrim) , and thus, this saves the High Elves from unnecessary bloodshed. I am sure that weakening the Empire's influence even further is only beneficial for the Thalmor and not for the Stormcloaks! Don't underestimate the Thalmor. Unfortunately, the Empire and the Stormcloaks didn't realized that they fight each other in a civil war that mostly suits the Thalmor and ONLY them. The High Elves of Thalmor are smart - they use dirt ways to defeat their enemies since after in the crucial defeat of the High Elven armies by the Empire in the Battle of the Red Ring, just outside the Imperial City.

The High Elves are very vengeful against anyone who stands against their plans for a new, dark era of Thalmor's nazi ruleship... The Thalmor are no better than the Ayleids (another tyrannic Elven race, who had enslaved the Humanity for many centuries, until Empress Alessia, led the Humanity to a successful revolt against their slavers, dropped the Ayleids from power, and sent them to extinction.

 

7) -You have the Blades on your side. If you do the Main Quest, you will discover that there are MANY people of the Imperial Empire who are good people, people devoted to serve the empire of Tiber Septim, even if the current empire is mere a shadow of Talo's empire. And every Dragonborn in history became a great ruler and emperor who had the Blades of the Cloud Ruler Temple always on his side, such as Talos, Uriel Septim, Martin Septim, who all of them were Dragonborns. I am sure that the Skyrim's Dragonborn is not only destined to end just a civil war in Skyrim, because, as the Greybeards in High Hrothar said, that, our Dragonborn is the new Tiber Septim! Our Dragonborn who can be matched in power by Tiber Septim, and has the Blades on his side, is a strong future candidate for the throne of the Imperial Empire! A very strong dragonborn who learned all the shouts very fast, quickly and easily, much like Tiber Septim himself, and who can (in Thalmor's dismay) unite everyone under the banner of the Tamrielic Imperial Empire.

 

The Empire needs us in its hardest of hours.

 

 

Everybody here, in the debate "Empire VS Thalmor", tends to think about 1) the Empire, 2) the Stormloaks and 3) the Thalmor, BUT, forgets easily the true matter behind all this: the potential of the game's protagonist - the Skyrim's Dragonborn who's the destiny is not meant to be limited to just that of a Hero, Jarl or Thane of Skyrim, but to what the Greybeards of High Hrothar recognized on him: the powers of Talos, and a great path in his destiny, a path which strongly resembles that of the first Dragonborn who set foot to High Hrothar's monastery: the Nord named Tiber Septim.

 

Unless someone here convinces me that our new Dragonborn is not linked by fate to Tiber Septim, and does not follows Talos' steps (Both started their adventures in Skyrim, both been summonned to High Hrothar, both been great Dragonslayers, both lead the campaign against such great threats (Thalmor, Unification of Tamriel), both united the people of different sides into under a common cause and same flag), I go with the Empire's side! :-)

 

No side is good at the time of Skyrim. Both Empire and Stormcloaks are not perfect. But our Dragonborn is destined for something greater than what ambitions Ulfric and his Stormcloaks limit to Skyrim's very borders.

Edited January 2, 2012 by SilentResident

[Nomadiac]

I sided with Stormcloaks with my first character, a Breton, because the Empire did try to chop off my head...but I saw how Ulfric treated the Dunmer in Windhelm, and after defeating Balgruuf in Whiterun his arguments sorta swayed me :S so I made a new character, a Dunmer, and finished the civil war quests with the Imperials.

MILD SPOILER: if you defeat Ulfric with the Imperials, General Tullius strongly implies that the Empire is about to gather forces for a war with the Thalmor, which validates my decision :D

I'm with the Stormcloaks on my current character, just to try something different.

[SilentResident]

And also, if the matter here is which side will make Skyrim a better place for its people to live, I could say that the Imperial side got better Jarls to rule Skyrim than the Stormcloaks do:

 

Whiterun - Jarl Balgruuf the Greater is a well-respected Jarl, and of course one of the best Jarls seen in the game! If the Stormcloaks win the Civil War, he will get replaced by one of the Stormcloaks because Jarl Balgruuf doesn't like Ulfric and his selfish ambitious plans for power. To note that Balgruuf is probably the best Jarl you will meet in the game - he is a popular and well-loved by his people and he helps the townsfolk in time of need - he sends military aid to nearby towns to keep them safe from the Dragon attacks...

 

Winterhold - the current Jarl of Winterhold, Korir, is sided with the Stormcloaks and he really dislikes the Mages College and blames the Mages for anything bad happened to his city and the world. The Imperial replacement of Jarl Korir (if the Imperials win the civil war) is the Jarl Kraldar, a noble who is more tolerant and friendly towards the Mages College, and not as biased as Korir. This can be better for Winterhold and for Skyrim's mage community in the long term.

 

Here what other people, especially from the http://www.uesp.net, about the Jarls on the other cities and their replacements. I haven't confirmed yet, as I haven't payed much attention to them:

 

Solitude - I think Elisif is fine & I don't like the idea that she & other Jarls get banish to the basement if the Imperial lose. Haven't met her replacement so can't tell what she is like.

Dawnstar - Don't know much about either side but from what I read, Imperial replacement seem to be better choice.

Windhelm - I like Ulfric's replacements Brunwulf a lot more than Ulfric, he will do right by Windhelm. Impressions of Ulfric's intention is more conqueror than liberator… I think he care more his 'vision' of Skyrim than for his people.

Falkreath - The down side of Imperial win is Siddgeir stay (I may try killing him stealth)... but his uncle Dengeir of Stuhn is already out but still highly respect by the hold, so it wouldn't be that bad.

Markarth - Jarl Igmund may be rude but I think the Silver-Blood family is a lot worst. I am supportive of the Forsworn causes anyway so Igmund is preferred.

Morthal - I think Idgrod Ravencrone does care for her people... don't know about her Stormcloak replacement.

Edited January 3, 2012 by SilentResident

[marharth]

And also, if the matter here is which side will make Skyrim a better place for its people to live, I could say that the Imperial side got better Jarls to rule Skyrim than the Stormcloaks do:

 

Whiterun - Jarl Balgruuf the Greater is a well-respected Jarl, and of course one of the best Jarls seen in the game! If the Stormcloaks win the Civil War, he will get replaced by one of the Stormcloaks because Jarl Balgruuf doesn't like Ulfric and his selfish ambitious plans for power. To note that Balgruuf is probably the best Jarl you will meet in the game - he is a popular and well-loved by his people and he helps the townsfolk in time of need - he sends military aid to nearby towns to keep them safe from the Dragon attacks...

 

Winterhold - the current Jarl of Winterhold, Korir, is sided with the Stormcloaks and he really dislikes the Mages College and blames the Mages for anything bad happened to his city and the world. The Imperial replacement of Jarl Korir (if the Imperials win the civil war) is the Jarl Kraldar, a noble who is more tolerant and friendly towards the Mages College, and not as biased as Korir. This can be better for Winterhold and for Skyrim's mage community in the long term.

 

Here what other people, especially from the http://www.uesp.net, about the Jarls on the other cities and their replacements. I haven't confirmed yet, as I haven't payed much attention to them:

 

Solitude - I think Elisif is fine & I don't like the idea that she & other Jarls get banish to the basement if the Imperial lose. Haven't met her replacement so can't tell what she is like.

Dawnstar - Don't know much about either side but from what I read, Imperial replacement seem to be better choice.

Windhelm - I like Ulfric's replacements Brunwulf a lot more than Ulfric, he will do right by Windhelm. Impressions of Ulfric's intention is more conqueror than liberator… I think he care more his 'vision' of Skyrim than for his people.

Falkreath - The down side of Imperial win is Siddgeir stay (I may try killing him stealth)... but his uncle Dengeir of Stuhn is already out but still highly respect by the hold, so it wouldn't be that bad.

Markarth - Jarl Igmund may be rude but I think the Silver-Blood family is a lot worst. I am supportive of the Forsworn causes anyway so Igmund is preferred.

Morthal - I think Idgrod Ravencrone does care for her people... don't know about her Stormcloak replacement.

Balgruuf got a ton of gold to accept the treaty with the thalmor. Hes not exactly perfect.

 

To be fair, the mages college did seem to be the cause. The entire city got destroyed but the mages college was fine. That and the mages practice necromancy and other things that are not very good.

 

Elisif doesn't get replaced. The imperials keep her and so does Urflic. She didn't have any problem with accepting his rule if it meant keeping her power.

 

Markarth is one of the worst cities in the game. It is pretty much run by a crime family and the Jarl doesn't care.

 

By the way what happens if the imperials take over riften?

[danielsuh25]

This is what I've sort of concluded, and please don't hate on me and correct me where I was wrong. In my personal opinion, I believe that there are 2 types of Dovahkiins (Dragonborns).

 

The Nord Dragonborn - A nordic dragonborn would make sense as the whole dragon situation takes place in Skyrim, the land of the Nords. The first few Dragonborns have either been actually a Nord, raised in Skyrim, or fought with the Nords. And I believe that with the current situation with the Stormcloaks vs Imperial Legion a Nordic Dragonborn would join the Stormcloaks, feeling that he/she has to protect the sacred land of Skyrim. The land in which Tiber Septim, aka Talos, the most famous Dragonborn, was brought up in.

 

The Imperial Dragonborn - An Imperial Dragonborn also makes sense as the most recent dragonborns, Uriel Septim VII and Martin Septim, were Imperials. An Imperial Dragonborn, would join the Imperial Legion feeling that he/she has to help rebuild the Empire, the same Empire that the Dragonborns had created and ruled over, which rightfully belongs to the Dragonborns.

 

Either way, I still do not like Emporer Titus Mede I and II. Titus Mede I was a warlord who just came in to the Imperial City and took over it with less than 1,000 men and crowned himeself Emperor right after the Oblivion Crisis and Martin Septim's sacrifice, which ended the Septim Dynasty. So either Nordic Dragonborn or Imperial Dragon, either one of them would probably think that that Titus Mede II has got to go.

 

In my personal opinion, I prefer the Imperial Dragonborn. 1) Just for gameplay reasons, I prefer the Imperial stat bonuses over the Nords, as it fits best for me my gameplay type. 2) If the Imperial Dragonborn does join the Imperial Legion in this war, he could then get Titus Mede out of power and he could be the new Emperor since the dragonborns have always been the heirs to the throne. This could then be more beneficial to all of Tamriel thus bringing the Empire peace and stability. 3) The last recent dragonborns were Imperials so it would make a little bit more sense.

[SilentResident]

By the way what happens if the imperials take over riften?

 

No idea. Didn't payed much attention to the Riften's Jarl so I can say with sure. But the current Jarl, Laila Law-Giver, in her conversations with her steward and the others in the Mistveil Keep, gave me the feeling that this Stormcloak Jarl didn't seem doing enough for her city. She convinced herself that she got her city under control, making everyone in her back to laugh at her. I can't expect the Imperial replacement of her to be worsen Jarl than her. It will really need nuts to deal with the corruption and the Thieves Guild

 

EDIT: oh, it gets worsen - the Imperial replacement seems even worsen - the new Jarl actually adores the Thieves Guild and the Dark Brotherhood. It seems its Riften's tradition to always get the worst Jarls in the past decades of years.

Edited January 4, 2012 by SilentResident

[marharth]

By the way what happens if the imperials take over riften?

 

No idea. Didn't payed much attention to the Riften's Jarl so I can say with sure. But the current Jarl, Laila Law-Giver, in her conversations with her steward and the others in the Mistveil Keep, gave me the feeling that this Stormcloak Jarl didn't seem doing enough for her city. She convinced herself that she got her city under control, making everyone in her back to laugh at her. I can't expect the Imperial replacement of her to be worsen Jarl than her. It will really need nuts to deal with the corruption and the Thieves Guild

Yea the stormcloak jarl is terrible, I don't see how it could be changed much though considering it would mess up the thieves guild a bit.