Total Realism Overhaul

[Mansh00ter]

If an item is enchanted to protect against magic, that will not change. Damage wise, a steel sword cuts just as well as a daedric one. The only difference is when you need to cut something... unusual. Then you need an unusual weapon.

 

I want to liberate players from itemization - players should, in my opinion, be free to choose their gear based on their fighting style, realistic weapon attributes such as speed and weight, and of course, looks. I don't want to force players to equip "better" weapons (which they might not even like on their characters) just to perform better. The idea is that it should matter how you *play*, not what items you got.

 

As for special weapon attributes, since the only way to differentiate between various weapon materials is by accessing their keywords, which for some reason slows down the script and adds a lot of lag, I had to scrap that idea for performance reasons. I had it working, but then the combat just felt weird. So I chose the more important of the two.

[tomislawus]

I can see some serious design flaw in an assumption that players should be able to choose freely what weapons they will use most of the time with no difference whatsoever between iron and elven sword for example. Skyrim is not a casual game where it is imperative that players are not forced into doing anything they might not want and they should be able to choose between iron and elven swords solely on their looks.

 

Skyrim is a RPG and this means it incorporates progress of the protagonist and choice of the way it is made. Choosing what new equipment character is to use in-game is one layer of this philosophy of progress and choice. But this choice needs to be meaningful.

 

I understand that your script lags when you try to make it check for weapon material, but what about permanent buffs to certain weapons? I imagine that when you compare an iron sword with an elven one you will notice that elven sword is not only sharper, but also lighter and better balanced. Why don't you give this elven sword a permanent buff of +5 to one handed weapons because its easier to swing with it?

Edited July 29, 2012 by tomislawus

[TaranTatsuuchi]

I'm sure he could, but that's not what he wants to do with his mod.

 

Personally I'm a 'form over function' person...

 

 

I prioritize looks over stats when I can.

[Apstinentas]

If an item is enchanted to protect against magic, that will not change. Damage wise, a steel sword cuts just as well as a daedric one. The only difference is when you need to cut something... unusual. Then you need an unusual weapon.

 

'A steel sword cuts just as well as a daedric one'. It appeared in this thread so many times it should be included in the mod title.

 

BTW good to know that your plans for high-tier items are what I was hoping for.

 

Keep up the good work!

Edited July 29, 2012 by Apstinentas

[tomislawus]

Yeah Manashota, you should consider changing the mod title to Total Casual Overhaul because, well, fuuck it - "anything works just as well as anything". Its all about you smashing buttons and not strategizing, saving up quest money for that uber glass dagger, etc.

 

If people play Skyrim as a RPG in which they need to manage their resources they gonna have a bad time, right Manashota?

 

I should be able to solo the whole game with my rusty iron dagger because whatever, "a rusty old dagger cuts just as well as a daedric-fuucking-demonic-out-this-world-metal dagger", right?

[Albin0gh0st]

Tomislawus.. He's not saying that the weapons are all EXACTLY the same, all the vanilla swing speeds and enchantability will stay the same. So you could keep using your "Neanderthal's Iron Stick of Cutting" for the whole game if you want to, but an "Elven Fast-n-Flashy-Slice-n-Dicer" is going to hurt them just as much, and be faster while doing it, plus be more receptive to enchantments. And unless it's enchanted, silver, or daedric (correct me if I missed one Mansh00ter) it will be completely or almost useless against ghosts, werewolves, and vampires. and besides.. a little rust can mean some serious health issues, especially in a medieval setting w/ fantasy attachment.

[Mansh00ter]

Tomislawus, the title says "Total realism overhaul". Although I mentioned before that, since Skyrim is a fantasy game, I will make certain concessions with that in mind, the ultimate goal is to make the game consistently challenging, with a strong feel of immersion and realism.

 

It's all about player freedom. So yeah... if you are skilled enough at fighting with rusty iron daggers, you could play, say a weird recluse hermit who just happens to be the last living master of the lost art of fighting with rusty iron daggers. And do the entire game with only your trusty rusty dagger at your side.

 

Or you can use a different weapon combination. Maybe you would like to deck yourself out in full daedric gear. Maybe you want to play a swordsinger, wielding only a sword and light robes. Maybe you would like to play as a true barbarian, with a huge axe and a loincloth for armor.

 

The point is, I am trying to make a system that will be consistently challenging and fun whatever the player chooses to play as. Mage, assassin, warrior, whatever. I *hate* when a game forces me to choose between how I want my character story to go and common sense because that item is just sooooo much better than what I have, but fits my character like a square wheel on a car. No itemization. Player freedom comes first.

[Mansh00ter]

And have a little faith. I'm trying to completely replace the combat system AND upgrade combat AI, which isn't easy nor simple. I wouldn't go through all that trouble just to make something that's bland and boring. Weapons do have differences, but along the lines of "right tool for the job", not "I found the Uber Shtick of Doom, the BESTEST weapon in the game!111!1!!!" ;) Edited July 29, 2012 by Mansh00ter

[tomislawus]

Dude, you lost it. Player freedom does not come from the fact that everything is as useful as anything else and there is no difference between various option. Player freedom comes from the possibility to choose from from various options that are DIFFERENT. If there is no difference between iron sword and daedric sword then there is no choice because there is only one sword with two different skins.

 

If there is no difference between iron sword and daedric one then why should I even do quests? I don't need money for this shiny expensive sword, I'm just gonna live as a bum with my trusty old and rusty iron sword because fuuck it, everyone knows that there is no difference between iron and steel and people started to use steel for weapons because they enjoy the additional work.

 

If your mod can't incorporate this simple truth that iron is worse than steel, then you should seriously reconsider taking out the realism part from your mod title.

 

And this so called "fantasy realism" you are talking about is... I'm sorry, but this is bullshiit. Realism is about making the game more logical and intuitive - there was nothing logical or intuitive about iron armors making people more damaged by lighting and there is nothing logical or intuitive about making various weapons all the same.

 

People will take your mod and after finding a better weapon (steel sword for example) they will expect it to be better somehow than an iron one and that would be a realistic assumption.

 

Besides, from a gameplay perspective you basically want to break one of the basic rules of game design that says if something looks different it should work different. Skyrim is not a Sims spin-off. We do not want to dress up our characters however we want with no impact on gameplay. We want to see our characters dressed up differently as we make choices about our gamestyle and as we progress through the game content.

 

Make choosing between a steel sword and an elven one something to consider by making both of them a viable choice in their own way, not through making the choice not matter.

 

Example: steel sword is not as sharp or light as the elven one, but its cheaper and player can make here a choice between two viable options - he either buys the expensive, but better elven sword or he saves up the money and spends them on some potions or armor.

 

This is called choice.

 

Another example: player can choose between pink tofu and green tofu to eat and regain health.

 

This is not a choice.

[Mansh00ter]

... try hitting a melon with an iron bar and a steel one. Then come back and tell me all about your vastly different results. What you are talking about is not realism. It's about classic RPG player gratification. Playing the game to collect cool items. It gives you a goal, something to work towards a reason to "do quests". Quests are then just context. The game world too, for that matter.

 

Want a different spin on "basic rules of game design"? Take a look at TaleWorld's Mount & Blade. Compare the very "best" sword in the game with a rusty cracked one of the same type. The practical difference is that you have to do maybe one extra slash with the junk one as compared to the "elite" version. Why? Because the game is a sandbox and gameplay is its own reward. It's also pretty realistic too. You don't spend your time trying to get "better items", you can completely deck out your character in the first 10 hours of gameplay and then spend another 100+ playing the damn game, doing other stuff aside from collecting items and gear.

 

Now, I could argue with you about this and that... but the fact is that you haven't played the mod, and I have. When I say that weapons have differences, but not arcadey "elven-swords-do-more-damage-than-iron-ones", I actually know what I am talking about, 'cause, you know, I built the damn thing. You come in say that's bulls***. Fine.

 

You are welcome to suggest things, but ultimately I do this for fun, so be polite. In the end, I am not trying to cater to anyone but myself and people who just happen to share my tastes. And the nice, relaxing thing about that is that I do not have to observe any deadlines, rules, instructions or opinions except those I set myself.

So I suggest you relax too, wait for the mod if you want, try it out, play it if you like it or not if you don't. Simple as that.