LE Improving the Blades

[JibstaMan]

- The Karthspire camp is outfitted with a forge, a blacksmith's table, and an alchemy station, but no enchanter. Perhaps if the camp is cleared (as I hope it is), some of these things can be put to use.

That's awesome. I would suggest removing them and placing them in the Temple once the corresponding job is recruited, that is more realistic and I like realistic as long as it's not annoying :biggrin:

For now, the rest of the tools / upgrades are going to appear "out of the oblivious blue", which is not annoying, but neither realistic :happy:.

 

Also, if you have idea's for some more difficult puzzles which contain lore-friendly aspects, that could be useful (for example when we make collectable Blades Artefacts put away on safe locations).

[Draco856]

We could use the Nordic Puzzles that are in the tombs, only make them a little more difficult to solve.

 

A Nordic puzzle door requires a "Dragon Claw" that corresponds to that door, the solution is on the claw, what if when we get the claw, the solution is missing, forcing us to either guess that puzzle, or go on a quest to find the missing pieces which have been scattered about Skyrim. There's also the pillar puzzles, those are all ready complicated, so using some of those would be good as well.

 

We could also come up with a new puzzle type, one that involves magic, like there's a magical shield in front of a door we need to open, with no discernible way of getting through it we have a few options

 

1. Simply overload what ever enchantment is powering the barrier, this would leave us weakened from the sheer amount of power it would take to overcome this enchantment. Think something like the barrier in Sancre Tor from Oblivion, it took the ghosts of 4 Blades to bring that barrier down, so something like that would be a good addition.

 

2. The second option would be to find out what exactly is powering this barrier, then either find a way to disable it (something inanimate, like a soul gem) or kill it (An NPC like a Dragon Priest who is still alive, but only because his soul is powering this barrier)

 

3. The final option would be to use a Dragon Soul to break the enchantment long enough for you to get in, but if you take too long inside, you would be trapped and would have to overload the enchantment like in Option 1, but it would still weaken you, perhaps permanently, there can then be some more options, like using another Dragon Soul to take the weakness away, but these souls come at a cost, so it's a hard choice.

 

 

If we close the Blood Door, only a Dragonborn would be able to enter or leave the Temple, it would pretty much seal anyone inside like a tomb, sure people could just jump off the overhang, but the chances of surviving that are slim to none, and would likely break quite a few bones in the process. It's a good lock, but impractical for defense, the bridge on the other hand is good for defense, as that little puzzle could be modified, if you step on the wrong symbol, poisoned darts could come out of the wall, or spikes from the ceiling and floor, or even summon a creature that would kill or knock out anyone that is there. Each time one of these traps is triggered, it would send some kind of signal to those inside the temple so if who ever is trying to get in survives they can be captured, and if they die, we can take their gear and sell it off for some more funds, they may even have a unique item or two. We would need some kind of warning, maybe something only worshipers of Talos would know that would warn them about continuing, while others who don't worhsip Talos aren't warned. Perhaps use the Amulet of Talos as a sort of key, like when it comes into range, it would summon some kind of spirit that would warn this person agansit continuing. There's the chance of being used against us, but it's a small price to pay for keeping Talos worshipers safe.

[Drytor]

@ Kohdi, Karthspire was my initial suggestion for expansion as I thought it could be used as a front for the Blades in the form of a small town. With the Forsworn cleared away (we'd have to stop them respawning of course) anyone can now explore the caves and potentially find SHT so a town hiding the cave would be perfect. If this isn't the way forward then I also suggested using the cave system just before SHT which would again be pretty practical. I'm less up for the actual expansion of the temple itself either up or down although small renovations/expansions might be pretty easy and maybe one or two "hidden" areas as well. I would much prefer the work done on the temple to be structural and superficial maintenance and repair as opposed to let's see how much we can cram in.

[PositivelyNegative]

EDIT: whoops, realize I'm referencing something on pg. 3. Sorry folks.

 

Yeah, a lot of the factions in Skyrim seem underdeveloped (see my Thalmor request). I have not gone through all of the main quest yet, so I am not familiar with all of the things you're talking about, but I would definitely appreciate something like this - otherwise it seems like the Temple is kind of a waste and that the Blades were just put there to keep them in the TES storyline. Improvements of Skyrim politics in general would be a good idea too - funny that you can get Faendal to join the Blades. One, he shouldn't really want to join considering his race. And two, as you pointed out, the Blades should be more suspicious of him.

Edited December 12, 2011 by PositivelyNegative

[Kohdi]

Also, if you have idea's for some more difficult puzzles which contain lore-friendly aspects, that could be useful (for example when we make collectable Blades Artefacts put away on safe locations).

 

We could use the Nordic Puzzles that are in the tombs, only make them a little more difficult to solve.

 

A Nordic puzzle door requires a "Dragon Claw" that corresponds to that door, the solution is on the claw, what if when we get the claw, the solution is missing, forcing us to either guess that puzzle, or go on a quest to find the missing pieces which have been scattered about Skyrim. There's also the pillar puzzles, those are all ready complicated, so using some of those would be good as well.

 

We could also come up with a new puzzle type, one that involves magic, like there's a magical shield in front of a door we need to open, with no discernible way of getting through it we have a few options

 

1. Simply overload what ever enchantment is powering the barrier, this would leave us weakened from the sheer amount of power it would take to overcome this enchantment. Think something like the barrier in Sancre Tor from Oblivion, it took the ghosts of 4 Blades to bring that barrier down, so something like that would be a good addition.

 

2. The second option would be to find out what exactly is powering this barrier, then either find a way to disable it (something inanimate, like a soul gem) or kill it (An NPC like a Dragon Priest who is still alive, but only because his soul is powering this barrier)

 

3. The final option would be to use a Dragon Soul to break the enchantment long enough for you to get in, but if you take too long inside, you would be trapped and would have to overload the enchantment like in Option 1, but it would still weaken you, perhaps permanently, there can then be some more options, like using another Dragon Soul to take the weakness away, but these souls come at a cost, so it's a hard choice.

 

I like where this is heading, especially the "solve a puzzle, find an artifact" idea. With the magical barrier like the one in Sancre Tor, it might me a bit dangerous to use living people (or at least important characters) for that quest. The ghosts of the four Blades who overpowered the barrier did so with the last of their strength, it seems like a regular person would be magically stunted or worse as a result of opening the path. The idea that there are hidden "battery" soul gems powering the barrier is interesting, and may throw in some surprises too. I remember a mod for Oblivion back in the day (I feel old) which had you retrieve a soul gem occupied by a still-conscious wizard's soul, thereby giving your weapon a "living" enchantment, but to get that gem you had to disable a barrier created by lesser gems, not by simply removing them but by defeating the souls trapped within (Found it, it was called "The Soul of Ilithiel"). I'm not suggesting we rip that idea, but to apply more creative measures in removing a magical barrier would have interesting results.

 

As for possible puzzles, here's an idea that came to me: Instead of giving the player a set of specialized Blades armor (as a reward or something) all at once, the pieces of the armor could be scattered around Skyrim in a kind of paper-trail type puzzle. It might not even be full pieces (gauntlets, helmet, etc.) but fragments, like left pauldron, right bracer, helm's crest, etc. that would need not only collecting, but also repair either by our Akaviri forge operator, or a potential "forge master" hidden somewhere in the wilds (Dragon Forge, anyone?). Once the armor is completely assembled there could be a special quest or some such to retrieve the final piece, like a shield or the helm or even a sword. On this quest the armor itself could play a necessary role, like bearing special scripted enchantments designed to withstand specific barriers and locks on the way to the reward. This would make the armor a little more than just a pretty trinket, and would give it a purpose to boot.

 

As I'm thinking, this may be an interesting way to "teach" our forge operator how to smith Akaviri armaments. While we may recruit someone who has shown their smithing aptitude, they might need to wait until they have been instructed by the hidden "forge master" to begin crafting Blades armor and katanas. Just a thought there.

 

Also, not to stir the cauldron too much, but are we dead set on making the player a possible Blades Grandmaster (as opposed to a different title)? It seems to me like the Blades exist to aid the Dragonborn, but not to be ruled by one in the position of an officer. It may be more consistent to keep Delphine (or any other candidate) as the head person of the Blades, while the player continues their work in a not-so-traditional office (the old "Edge of the Blades" idea). Again, just a thought, but this one rolls more with the established lore.

Edited December 12, 2011 by Kohdi

[Draco856]

I'm thinking the position of Grandmaster for the Player would be a temporary situation, after all depending on our choices we are doing some serious remodeling of the Blades as a whole. In the first era, they existed to wipe dragons off the face of the world, in the 4th Era, we have the chance of changing that mission, from one of war, to one of peace. As it is now, the Blades war with the Dragons, but so changing that to a peaceful coexistence, and even collaboration between them would require someone to actively lead them to it. So for the duration of the change the player will be the Grandmaster, after the change has taken hold, we go through the ranks of those we have recruited, and test them, if they pass this test, they have the right to take over the Blades as Grandmaster until they choose their successor.

 

So pretty much:

 

For the duration of the Dragon Ally questline where we actually set up the alliance, the player will be Grandmaster (or working up to that level, should be grandmaster before the alliance quests are finished so it has more effect throughout the guild RP wise, after all, even if we are Dragonborn, new recruits might not listen to someone who is pretty much the low man on the totem pole.)

 

After the Alliance is cemented and generally accepted a series of trials should be held to choose the one among the Blades worthy of being the Grandmaster the Trials should be difficult, but not impossible. They should also not be lethal. The dragons we ally with will also have to sign off on the new Grandmaster, so they will need to earn the respect of any dragon we ally with to take over the Blades, otherwise they don't have much of a guarantee that the peace will last.

[JibstaMan]

I'm thinking more in the way of temporarily removing rankings. After all, two people and the Dragonborn together is what the Blades are. All important people in their own way, don't really require a leader who commands the others around.

Considering the Paarthurnax quest, we (as Dragonborn) will need a lot of convincing (realistically) to change the (default, no personality changed) Delphine to stop the Dragon Kill path. How I see it, this convincing requires a big amount of trust from Delphine and maybe a lot of despair. Delphine has to choose between protection from Dragons or protection from corruptness, represented by the Thalmor. To change Delphine's mind towards Dragon Ally, you (the Dragonborn) have to convince Delphine the Thalmor are he bigger threat and Dragons can be allies.

Maybe show Delphine Odahviing and let her ride him, maybe fondle him for all I care. Show her she is wrong about the world, about the Dragons. Make her know to her bones there is more to Dragons then slaying and there are other useful purposes for the Blades to take their stand and make a difference. Maybe even help in changing the Empire, to make it worth something, instead of the Thalmor puppet.

With all this, she has to think about the next step. And if you convinced her, she trusts you enough to judge people on whether they can join (although she can of course still help people do the oath) and she entrusts you with the rebuilding of SHT. She is towards the members still the Grandmaster, although at this moment, the title has not much of a meaning. You're the one who gets things done, you're the one in charge of rebuilding and recruiting. Meanwhile Delphine will lay back and take it easy. She will concern herself with rumors and her own mental state. Once you're progressing well, she sees what you're doing is good and will slowly make herself more useful again as Grandmaster.

I hope it makes sense... :confused: I would really like to have a NPC with a lot of depth, as if you can really understand and sympathize with her. And, considering the position and purpose of the Blades after Alduin's defeat, I think Delphine is a good choice for that.

Edited December 12, 2011 by JibstaMan

[Logiwink]

Hey guys, just another plug for the:

 

Sourceforge Project Page for this Mod

Edited December 12, 2011 by Logiwink

[Drytor]

I think dialogue options with Delphine and Esbern that cause them to change their ways rather than trying to do it as the player character would be far better. The Dragonborn should not be the Grandmaster, he is the one they serve, not their leader. It might be nice to have a new Grandmaster but we can essentially do what we want now with Delphine and Esbern in terms of how they might make new decisions.

 

EDIT: and in such a way I am very much in agreement with JibstaMan

Edited December 12, 2011 by Drytor

[Kohdi]

I think I may sign on with that temporary leaderless state of the Blades (at least in the official sense), it really does make sense that three or four people could cooperate without a presiding officer. I also like Delphine's life-purpose-crisis, having thought of herself as the last Blade for so long, after all the death and destruction by the Thalmor, that would mess with anyone's head.

 

Before I leave to take a math final (hoorah), one more fun tidbit of lore- In a cave around Lake Ilinalta (from what I remember), there is a forgotten shrine of Talos in a kind of open-air grotto (it's beautiful there). There you find the journal of Bolar, who thought himself the last Blade, as well as his katana, the Oathblade. He died defending the shrine from the Thalmor, but there's a lot of potential to expand on his story, both before and after death, if you get my meaning.