LE Improving the Blades

[Draco856]

So yeah, while I may be miles off base on the amount of dragons that could come to the aid of any dragon wanting to rule the world, as long as the portal to Sovengarde is open, theres the chance of either another dragon going there to get more powerful, or Alduin coming back through the portal since he retained his soul, but not his life. All it would take for him to come back would for another dragon (or an evil Dragonborn or voice user) to enter the portal and use the shout:

 

"Slen Tiid Vo!" ― "Flesh Time Undo!"

 

 

on Alduins corpse, it could bring him back just like it did to the other dragons resurrected by Alduin.

[AphoticPhoenix]

If the fear is that any dragon could cause the resurrection of Alduin; why let Odahviing, a dragon who was much more recently allied with Alduin, continue to live while demanding the death of Paarthurnax who was instrumental in the rebellion against Alduin the first time round, and has been pretty much minding his own business for years?

[Draco856]

Because Odahviing won't betray you after you handed him his scales on a platter. The way a dragons mind works is, if your Thu'um is the strongest, they will follow you, but you have to earn their respect. You've earned Odahviing's, first by defeating him, then again by killing Alduin. With any other dragon, including Paarthurnax, you have no guarantees because you haven't fought them, voice to voice, they might think themselves the strongest and try to challenge you, a mere mortal, but, knowing where Sovengarde is would mean they can take the souls and get even stronger, strong enough to defeat you? Maybe, maybe not, but they'd still be taking the souls of the dead. Some might also believe that Alduin isn't really dead and he is just biding his time for his return like he did the last time he fought, so there are so many senarios for this it's getting hard for me to keep track.

 

And yeah, Paarthurnax has been minding his own business for years, but what do you think would happen if a dragon suddenly went "Hello, I'm up here on the Throat of the World, I'm busy teaching you mortals how to speak our language" "It's a dragon, lets get him" would have been the Blades response at the time, just like it is when they do find out now.

 

So simply:

 

You fought Odahviing, you defeated him, earning his respect, or a begrudging defeat however you want to look at it. You fought and killed Alduin, earning Odahviing's respect, enough so that when ever you call for him, he'll come. He pretty much becomes a follower who will help you until the day either of you die. Sure he might still be evil, but for as long as you are alive, he knows if he strays his soul is pretty much yours.

 

With every other dragon, they only learn too late what it means to fight you, and by that time they can no longer fly. If we were to challenge every dragon in the world they might realize it's a bad idea to attack any mortal out of spite. We haven't challenged Paarthurnax and if he lives after Alduin's defeat he flies off to force-teach the way of the voice to all the other dragons weather they like it or not. That gave me the impression that it was either his way or the highway, that he would kill any who opposed him, but he wouldn't outright attack the Dragonborn, after all, you pretty much just killed the most powerful dragon, so if he lives, who's saying he won't go on a soul eating binge and get stronger? Sure he's past his prime in looks, but dragons tend to get stronger the older they get, as their color changes.

 

But we are getting distracted. As long as Paarthurnax isn't the deciding factor for any dragon allies, I'm happy. If we give some more reason for either wanting him dead, or wanting him to live story wise, I'm all for it.

[Draco856]

Just had an idea, about the Karthspire camp, what if we as the player build our own house there? Think about it:

 

We go to the Jarl of Markath, if we are the Thane of Markarth, we can buy the land surrounding the Karthspire for say 150k gold. After we buy this land we hire people to build us either a fort (might be a nice addition) or a mansion. It will require a large amount of gold to finish this building, but when it is done it could act as a first line of defense for anyone wanting to enter the cave where Sky Haven Temple is, we could even use this building as an excuse to put a gate in front of the cave saying something like "I've converted this cave into a storage room" or vault or something that would require a gate to be put up which would give the temple another line of defense. No towns, no villages, just a simple home for a Thane outside of the hustle and bustle of the city. I think it could work, we'd have a front for receiving new recruits. We could build a tunnel system connecting the temple and this house so no one realizes people are coming and going from this supposed vault/storage room/whatever.

 

This fort/house/thing could also be a good front for a shop, we invite a merchant to live in the place and sell their wares to anyone who passes by, the gold from the sales would go to the Blades. We'd have to supply the shop with items from time to time, but it might work.

[JibstaMan]

I will start to write a way to convince Delphine (and Esbern) to change the path and purpose of the Blades.

The start of this quest will be after Delphine starts the Paarthurnax quest, but is a separate quest. Completing this quest will change the path of the Blades to what I call "The Path of the Dovah Fahdon" (aka Dragon Ally path). During this quest, I'll try to make it so there are multiple options to agree with Delphine and Esbern, so you fail the quest and will continue on the default path of the Blades, what I call "The Path of the Dovah Kriid" (aka Dragonslayer path).

 

As for Delphine, she's sounding more and more like she just wants to use the dragons as a scapegoat for her (justified) frustration at the Thalmor. In all reality the dragons no longer pose a great threat, at least not like they did in the first era, so convincing her against the Paarthurnax vendetta will require digging deeper into her personal issues and background.

I agree. I will do my very best to use this. Also, see my post earlier ;)

 

As long as Paarthurnax isn't the deciding factor for any dragon allies, I'm happy.

I would want to same, but it creates two different ways in one questline as how I see it. What I see as "The Way of the Voice" is using the voice to do good, not gain power and use it for your own benefit. The Blades can be considered similar. They protect the Emporer and fight against big threats to the world, like the Oblivion Crisis. They use power to do good, which I belief is consistent with "The Way of the Voice". Paarthurnax, (force-)teaching other dragons The Way of the Voice also fits in with our Dragon Ally questline. Some dragons will listen and go The Way of the Voice, others will die; some dragons will be our allies, the others we will kill. Without Paarthurnax, we will have to do it all by ourselves. Making dragons submit to us and become our allies.

But I'm still doubtful. At this moment, killing him is required to go the Dragonslayer path, which is the reason to kill him. On the Dragon Ally path, you either dislike him and kill him or let him live and help you, which is not very strong story wise (IMO).

 

Here some other quotes from Arngeir:

 

- What is the "Way of the Voice" - "The Voice was a gift of the goddess Kynareth, at the dawn of time. She gave mortals the ability to speak as dragons do. Although this gift has often been misused, the only true use of the Voice is for the worship and glory of the gods. True mastery of the Voice can only be achieved when your inner spirit is in harmony with your outward actions. In the contemplation of the sky, Kynareth's domain, and the practice of the Voice, we strive to achieve this balance."

- But I don't follow your philosophy. Why help me learn the Voice? - "The Dragonborn is an exception to all the rules - the Dragon Blood itself is a gift of the gods. If we accept one gift, how can we deny the other? As Dragonborn, you have received the ability to Shout directly from Akatosh. We therefore seek to guide you on the proper use of your gift, which transcends the restrictions which bind other mortals.

- I will try to follow the Way of the Voice - "That is commendable. But remember, the Dragon Blood is itself a gift of Akatosh. Do not try to deny that gift. Your destiny requires you to use your Voice - why else would Akatosh have bestowed this power upon you? If you remember to use your Voice in service to the purpose of Akatosh, you will remain true to the Way."

 

 

Edited December 13, 2011 by JibstaMan

[Draco856]

But it could be argued that Odahviing could be just as useful as Paarthurnax in that regard. And the Greybeards and Paarthurnax don't use the voice for anything, good or bad. They just sit up there and "meditate", basically doing nothing. I have to agree with Delphine on one thing...the Greybeards fear their power.

 

 

We kill Paarthurnax, but we go to the Greybeards for forgiveness saying something like "I was misguided and overwhelmed by the dragon soul within me with the desire to rule, but after he was dead you felt regret, and went on a quest to find a way to change the soul within from one who seeks to dominate to one who seeks peace with the other races", you can then have Odahviing take Paarthurnax's place as Grandmaster of the Greybeards, or use the shout Alduin uses to resurrect the other dragons, it could be used on Paarthurnax as an alternate path so people don't have to start a new character to go the Dragon Ally path.

 

So with divergent paths, for this quest we have:

 

Paarthurnax alive and kicking (Ignore the Paarthurnax quest given by the Blades)

 

Paarthurnax dead, but Odahviing in his place

 

Paarthurnax alive after using the shout "Slen Tiid Vo!" ― "Flesh Time Undo!"

 

Going down this path on our own without the aid of Paarthurnax, and as we gain power over the other dragons we send them to the Greybeards to learn the Way of the Voice from them.

 

 

This is my only real issue because I've gone so far past the point of killing him that I don't want to go back to that save so I can have dragon allies. I don't like killing dragons all the time.

[JibstaMan]

I disagree with Odahviing taking his place. Paarthurnax has lived long and spent a lot of that time training himself the Way of the Voice (and restrain his evil nature). If Paarthurnax is dead, it's our powerbful Thu'um that sumits other dragons to our cause. It's their respect for our power that they become our allies.

 

Paarthurnax alive and kicking (Ignore the Paarthurnax quest given by the Blades)

How I see it:

Paarthurnax lives, because you convinces Delphine and Esbern to change their ways. Completing that quest will automaticly fail the Paarthurnax quest, since they revoke their orders.

 

I'm also not fan of the idea of changing the very nature of a dragon by replacing his soul with another peaceful one. Killing and resurrection could be used for other reasons:

Paarthurnax paid for his crimes but lives again. (this completes the quest, while Paarthurnax lives again)

We prove our might to Paarthurnax, making sure he understands he should not become another threat (still, we do need to close that gate or add a good lot of Blades to protect it (which it better for mod compatibility, since I believe The Fallen Greybeards do want to use that gate also...)).

They're just possibilities...

 

Awesome image (IMO):

 

http://img710.imageshack.us/img710/1074/bladesesbernaction1.jpg

 

Edited December 13, 2011 by JibstaMan

[Draco856]

Not changing Paarthurnax's or Odahviing's soul, changing our own. Like he says, it's the nature of Dovah to dominate, the will to power is in our blood, perhaps through strict training we can change the nature of the dragon soul in us (the player) so we can more easily follow our own path, instead of the path of our blood. I wouldn't presume to be able to change the nature of any dragon, it's a personal choice and a battle that one has to fight alone.

 

Like in the quest to cure yourself of Lycantrophy (sp), you have to fight the beast that has taken root in your soul, defeat it and you are cured, lose, and you remain a werewolf. Like how that goes, we have to defeat the nature of the beast, curb the desire to dominate all those we see. It's all ready apparent, though we may not realize it, we do it to most people we meet all ready, our followers, why do they follow us? Why should they follow us? It's a question I ask myself all the time.

 

 

Since my last post I've gone back into the game and used the console to both reset the quest (even though it still says I completed it I can talk to the Greybeards again so it must have worked), I then set it to the final stage just in case, though with no visible effect. So while I completed the Paarthurnax quest, hopefully this will make it so the game thinks I haven't.

 

Also we aren't replacing anything, change is not replace, because we will still be us, just not someone who dominates others so easily. We could have side effects for this drastic change, weakening of our voice which we then have to train perhaps with perk points by creating a brand new skill tree if possible.

 

I agree, if we kill him, we can bring him back as he has now paid for his crimes, whatever they may have been, which satisfies both the Blades and the Greybeards (The Greybeards because we have brought back their leader, though there might still be some animosity for killing him in the first place.)

[artesox]

Hummm... I loved the idea of this mod... but it is kinda an fact that if you have the dragonblood, you have more right to rule than the actual emperor itself...

 

Anyway, I think that one of the last main quest for the blades should be searching for the lost descendent of Timber Septim... And in the end, you discover that you are this descendent... (Without having to make your way in the rise of power... at least not until the Thalmor are down)

 

But I liked the mod as it is planned now ^^

It would be fun to reconstruct the blades

[Draco856]

The problem with a descendant of the Septim line is that it can never happen. The line was wiped out by the Mythic Dawn during the Oblivion Crisis. Martin was the last Septim. Whats wrong with starting a new empire, a new bloodline? Why do we have to rely on the blood of a Septim? Not to mention, it's a little weird to have an Argonian Septim...I doubt that would be logical...There can never be another Septim bloodline, but we can always start a new one. But it's beyond the scope of this mod which will focus on the Blades, not the Empire.

 

I'm all for a mod that allows the PC to rally Skyrim and march into Hammerfell, and drive out any Thalmor there, then move on to Cyrodiil, drive them from there, then Elsweyr, then Valenwood, then finally Alinor (Summerset Isles), we then reform the Empire, stronger then it was before. But not in this mod, a mod that could tie in with this one sure, but not a main goal of this one.