LE Improving the Blades

[Chainsgore]

Draco dude, I think you've had some good idea's but in this case I think you're letting your personal opinions of one NPC dictate your actions. There would be people that feel differently, which is why I suggested options for joining the rebellion, aiding the rebellion or staying out of it. The point of something like this is to add flavor to the game by giving us more story to work with. Having as many reasonable options as possible. Theres still the the fact that the Stormcloak Rebellion is a movement based out of religous oppression, specifically the banning of Talos worship. Since the people responsible for the ban are the mortal enemies of the Blades... well the whole "The Enemy of my Enemy is my Friend" thing does come to mind. Just saying that I don't think this idea should be disregarded outright because some people don't like Ulfric personally.

 

**Just thought about this. With the option of going Independant while/after speaking with Ulfric there could be a persuasion check where if failed could result in backlash from the Stormcloaks for not openly supporting the Rebellion. Or even an option that forces open hostilities from the Stormcloak if Persuasion checks are passed. Perhaps make it a series of crude insluts towards the reasons behind the rebellion and Ulfric personally. (That last bit is for all you Ulfric Haters out there)

Edited November 29, 2011 by Chainsgore

[Draco856]

Yeah, Ulfric tends to make me a bit one-sided with things concerning him, I personally agree with the Stormcloak ideal, just not the man behind it.

[Logiwink]

Wow - a lot of good stuff. I think the idea of aligning the Blades with one of the factions is clearly a difficult point. As numerous people have pointed out it's virtually impossible for them to support the Empire in its current state because of the Thalmor domination of the Empire. The Stormcloaks are problematic as well for different reasons. The main reason I wished to avoid "crossing the streams" as they said in Ghostbusters is that the option to lead the Blades support to a faction would feel like too restricted a choice. The choice would be between using the Blades to support the Stormcloaks and .. not. It just doesn't seem like a robust choice since one choice would probably yield a lot more playable content than the other (not supporting Ulfric). Ideally it would be a choice between supporting Ulfric or deposing him, but that would be very difficult fluff-wise (his men love him, if the PC is not a nord there is no way the people would accept him as high king, etc). Frankly, making the Dragonborn the High King sounds like a great mod, but it doesn't sound like this mod. So for the time being I'm pursuing a plot line independent of civil war factions, the current goal is to rebuild and preserve the Blades as an independent organization that serves the Dragonborn.

 

The Blades first served Reman in the 2nd Era and also served the Septim Line in the 3rd Era starting with Tiber Septim. What did they do between the time of fall of the 2nd Empire and the rise to power of Tiber Septim? I think it would be fun to write some new books and slot them in as clues/guidance to where the player can go in this mod (currently the options seem to be 1) Hunt more dragons 2) Kick Thalmor Butt 3) Rebuild the Order of Talos).

[Kairo29]

Are you still considering the option of integrating the dragons in the Blades storyline as allies against the Thalmor?

 

Loving reading the ideas flowing on this thread. Easily my fave thread and can be one of the best mods out there if it comes to fruition. Btw, how possible is it to create new NPCs? That might help to pass storytelling to new non-canon personas than try to have non voice acted (or changed voices) moments with existing NPCs right?

 

The comparison of the blades to the guys in dragon age is kind of the way i picture them at the moment. Not exactly of course, but similarities. I personally think this mod could be a great storytelling achievement if care is taken to have strong character development in a short amt of time...which probably will be difficult but the possibilities are plenty. Realistic options being questioned and considered and the chance to choose the one that speaks out to u will make it great.

[NotCras]

as kairo stated already, i love this thread as well and it is one of my faves too.

 

was playing skyrim and was thinking about this mod and i got a cool idea but you guys have to hear it out all the way. It sort of goes with my take the Blades from Delphine idea i had before.

 

So theres no new options to dealing with Paarthunax, instead if you reject her the blades become angry at you as usual. In fact, they become downright hostile to you, calling you things like the Dragon sympathizer, and saying how could we trust someone with the soul of a dragon, theyre just a dragon in human form. Occasionally as you wander skyrim, you will be ambushed by blades. Now these ambush parties contain a lot of new recruits, Delphine has been busy, but each is lead by one of the Blades that you recruited. As you defeat each ambush party, you get a small dialogue with your recruited character where you can convince them of your innocence and recruit them back to take back the blades. After you recruit your followers back, and maybe get some outside force to help you (not sure just an idea still), you can venture to attack and ultimately take back SHT. In the end you will have to battle Esbern and Delphine, since they are of the same mind, and either kill or spare them yata yata. From there you take control of the Blades and bring it back to the glory it should be, maybe even bring Paarthunax and Ohdaving along just to drive the point home that they are awesome xD

 

Anyway, its just an idea that would be a little deviation from what was being talked about but still just thought id shoot the breeze and write it.

[Logiwink]

Kairo + NotCras - glad you're enjoying the thread. I'm certainly enjoying bouncing these ideas around and the ideas behind the mod have been dramatically improved by your suggestions and feedback.

 

Dragon allies is a cool idea but I'm still pretty foggy on how it would work - I'm imagining several encounters similar to the one with Ohdaving with a similar result - can summon more dragons to fight for you, or several dragons converge on a thalmor stronghold in an epic storm-the-castle moment. Partly I'm concerned for recruiting dragon allies feeling like "more of the same" after the main quest but I'm also concerned about implementation. I think Dragons as allies may be involved in an update to the mod once I get my bearings with the CS by flushing out the rest of the questline. So it's definately still something I like but I'm not as clear on the way forward. A lot of my ideas for this are fueled by my love of Bioware games and the desire to bring some more bioware style companion missions/interaction to Skyrim so that's been my short-term focus.

 

Notcras - I think this is a really cool idea, it could easily be forked off the main new questline by failing to persuade Delphine to leave the dragons alone or could be integrated into the main storyline.

 

When I get a chance I'll sketch out a new outline for what I'm thinking with these suggestions incorporated.

Edited December 1, 2011 by Logiwink

[Logiwink]

Where it stands currently:

 

This is an effort to include the ideas into a signal outline with an indication of when each segment will be implemented. Right now I'd doing my best to "KISS" - or keep it simple stupid because, while there are a lot of great ideas bouncing around this thread some of them are so large is scope as to be effectively out of my reach until I gain skill as a modder (stuff in italics is stuff I'd like but will probably be more of a bonus content after the first draft of the mod is done).

 

1. A New Hope

The Dragonborn is the one the Blades have been waiting for and they will serve him, one way or the other. After the main questline wraps the player will be able to contend for the Grandmaster-ship of the Blades after having proved himself in rebuilding the organization and completing important objectives for them. The gameplay will intiatially focus on recruting new members for the blades by new quests as well as expanding the functionality of Sky Haven Temple by unlocking improvements.

2. Attituide Adjustment

• Convince or force Delphine and Esbern to accept Dragons as allies instead of exterminating them (leads to Dragon ally quests)
  
• Go with the flow and exterminate all dragons (leads to dragon kill quests)
  
• Tell them to do their dirty work themselves (Delphine eventually gets herself killed along with some recruits)
  

3. Sky Haven Temple Expanded

Default Improvements

• Player Quarters with Bed and Storage
  

Unlockable Improvements

• Blacksmithing improvements (on the terrace) unlock with recruitment of Smith
  
• Alchemy Station unlocks with recruitment of the Thief
  
• Enchanting Station unlocks with recruitment of the Mage
  
• Kitchen unlocks with recruitment of the Quartermaster
  
• Armory/Museum unlocks after quest to retrieve a special key to open it
  
• Expanded Training area unlocks with recruitment of the Veteran
  
• Library, unlocks when Lorekeeper is recruited
  
• Dragon housing/cave perhaps as part of recruit the dragons quests
  

4. Recruitment Quests

Special mission to recruit each new Blades Member

• The Veteran - to train recruits, unlocks training area
  
• The Quartermaster - for logistical support, unlocks kitchen, acts as a general shopkeeper
  
• The Smith - for weapons, unlocks smithing stations, acts as a weapons/armor shopkeeper
  
• The Mage - for the magic, unlocks enchanters station, sells mage goods and spells
  
• The Thief/Assassin - unlocks alchemy, sells arrows and poisons
  
• The Lorekeeper - an apprentice for Esbern, unlocks library
  
• The Sharpshooter - trains in archery, sells arrows, unlocks archery range
  
• The Spy - trains in stealth, finds Thalmor bases, etc.
  

5. Questline

No hard choice between three different goals but rather, you can complete quests towards each branch as you see fit. After completing one line entirely a celebration honors your achievement.

1. Defenders of the Faith - missions to clear a monastery of Talos, rescue believers from the Thalmor, retrieve Talos artifacts
   
2. Down with the Thalmor - take the fight to them, bust up their bases and cut their supply lines, defend SHT from the Thalmor
   
3. Dragon Hunter - dragon kill or dragon ally quests
   

 

I think certain quests will trigger after a certain number of recruitment actions, similar to ME2.

[Drytor]

Even as an idea this mod would recieve my fullest endorsement, the Blades were far too small a faction in my eyes and although you were supposed to be bringing them back from the brink of destruction I felt it just stopped.

 

I do not feel that this should be a mod that edits an awful lot but instead increases content. Originally you recruit three potential followers then you can go Dragon Hunting and that's about it. I do not disagree with the way this was done. Though I agree with a lot of the ideas people are bringing forward I feel they're suggesting very much an overhaul of this rather than saying, what else can we do?

 

While I agree the Blades don't serve the Empire I don't think they should affiliate themselves with the Stormcloaks. The Blades used to serve the Emperor, just one man, not the faction he created. Now that they have another person with Dragon Blood they serve him though I do not feel you need to lead them, only guide them through Grandmaster Delphine. I don't feel that joining the factions should be implemented in this mod or at least not the first draft as there'll be far too many other things that will have to be worked out.

 

In the vanila game Delphine says that's all we can recruit for now which makes sense. They've only just taken back SHT so they're reconsolidating their strength and getting back to what their initial purpose was, Dragon Slaying. Perhaps the only "edit" I would make to the vanilla Blades would be to reduce the number of recruits to 2 rather than 3 at this stage. After you've killed a few Dragons, completed a few other quests or a few game days have gone by you could talk to Delphine again about more recruits. At this stage she would tell you they can't accomodate more recruits unless you expand. For this you'll need The Smith and The Quartermaster. You will select which one first which will initiate a quest with a completely new NPC who spawns on initiation of the quest (rather than removing an NPC from their vanilla home). After recruiting both you will again kill/quest/wait and there will be new sections added to SHT (Blacksmith Workshop, General Goods, fix the cieling, possibly extended living quarters). It would be like they were clearing out areas or building new ones (extending the armory a little to have the Blacksmiths workshop or creating it outside). Because they can now make armour they can also accomodate recruiting 2 more followers!

 

This could continue fairly consistently until all the positions were filled although it might be nice to see one or two bad bits of intel leading you to Thalmor sympathisers who you can't recruit but will still attack you. Maybe even one or two rescue missions where you have to fight your way through a Thalmor stronghold to release someone or intercept a patrol taking someone back that they've captured. Your recruited blades could help with the rescues. It would also make a nice little climax to recruiting if the Thalmor attacked the Temple.

 

Instead of recruiting a veteran why not have the option of choosing from among your already recruited ranks? Though farfetched I wonder if the Veteran could also give the option to change a characters skills. I don't mean that in the level up sense of the Player Character. They start as recruits and you can either pay him a sum to make them specialise as an Archer, Warrior or Mage or you can choose who to take with you to hunt Dragons and after they've helped kill so many they can improve to one of those three areas then to Master each.

 

Karthspire is basically the entrance to SHT. To get there you have to fight your way through the Forsworn who have taken up residence in and around Karthspire so they're cleared out. In the Vanilla game they also respawn. After you fight the first Dragon and the Khajit flee to just outside Whiterun they eventually build up a little camp just outside. Could this happen with Karthspire? Instead of the actual Temple being changed and growing could there be some buildings built at Karthspire which would also act as a deterent to people wanting to snoop around now it's clear. The Order of Talos could still be reborn but probably within the confines of the temple while a little town develops in Karthspire to act as a front which could include a Farm and such as someone suggested earlier. There could maybe be missions where the Thalmor were snooping around as well.

 

It's taken me a while to write this. Sorry it's a bit lengthy but that's what I thought might be easier to implement as a first draft and what I would really like to see. I've tried to keep it as Chronological as possible.

 

EDIT: Recruits could be sent on "side mission" where they retrieve artifacts, books, etc. if you don't want to

Edited December 1, 2011 by Drytor

[Zero713]

I've been messing with dragons in Skyrim, and there are a nice number of named, non-quest dependent dragons roaming around. One I found by mistake in black reach. He seems to have no Earthly reason of existing there, as I don't think he is tied to ANY missions, and can be summoned at will when you know what to do. So that could be a potential dragon ally or kill mission. As for actual dragon quest, it is obviously possible to make actors (dragons in this case) "essential", making them immortal and only "bow in defeat". An act like that could trigger dialog if need be, and if things don't go right, you could force an execution and turn off the essential flag.

 

As for upgrading the new temple of the blades, everything Logiwink summed it down to is gold. For the visuals however, I do believe that the entire temple should be upgrades as it improves, give it a more liveable, less rundown, and more efficient feel. There are two way of thinking about the reinventions, upward progress and downward progress. In this I mean of more space. The temple is atop a rather large mountain with nothing digging into it, caves etc. A underground building system would make it easier for you to make new areas. Just make a new area and fill in the void. Upward building might take a little bit of work for the fact that you would have to actually make it look well both inside and out. And linear additions would be limited unless you add like a overhang to the outside areas.

 

For recruitment, there are an nice number of people who can originally join the blades, so just increasing that count would be easy enough. It would indeed take some work to get other classes to be join-able though, but that's a given. Imagine a quest or event that'll make all the members of the blades hunt at once. Ahh... the dream. Anyway, a few more living quarters would work fine.

 

For the "dragons roost"... Hm... I got nothing for that. ^_^ But everything that is going on around here is lore-friendly and buy-able. It's amazing. I'm level 50+ and I'd start over just to have everything right with this mod.

 

Also, don't forget about the forsworn camp outside the entrance. Something has to be done about that. Turn it into something useful, and not a constant dangerous area outside. Also, perhaps a re-routing khajiit caravan can stop buy and sell supplies sometimes? lol

Edited December 1, 2011 by Zero713

[Logiwink]

Drytor- Wow, lots of cool ideas. Thanks for contributing.

 

The overarching theme of your suggestion seems to be that you want to see the mod's new content grow out of the existing Blades content organically without any replacement of existing content.

 

I think you're not the only one who would oppose deposing Delphine - perhaps the mod should have some flexibility in the regard.

 

I think you're approach to recruitment sounds like one with a good flow that fits into an story arc of a continually improving SHT. The way you described it I was reminded of the mod Real Time Settler from New Vegas, I think I'll play through that and see if I can't pick up any ideas.

 

The idea about bad intel is a great one - all my favorite shows like Firefly have plans going to hell almost every time so it'd be a nice element for this mod's questline.

 

Promotion or otherwise managing individual recruits within the Blades also sounds like a cool idea - I've got no idea how to implement it but hopefully that will change!

 

I think the idea of turning Karthspire into a town is really cool. Unfortunately it doesn't seem like it jive's with the fluff/lore. What I mean is that the Blades are the equivalent of a non-governmental actor like Cebereus in ME, except good. The LAST thing they want is to attract attention by encouraging people to settle near their stronghold. Doing so is an invitation to attack by the Thalmor or by a local Jarl who feels threatened by their presence. Best to keep a low-profile I think. In Oblivion they were very public in their role of defending the emperor but they also operated as a secrete organization with agents throughout tamriel - that's more what we're going for.

 

I definitely agree about keeping the Blades out of the civil war - it doesn't seem to work on a variety of levels so I'd rather not go there. Frankly the civil war quests left a bad taste in my mouth - I didn't want to see the Empire triumph given they were Thalmor lackeys and I didn't think Ulfric should lead skyrim. I ended up supporting Ulfric just because I wanted the Empire and the Thalmor out of Skyrim but I felt ashamed when he killed Tulius in cold blood.

Edited December 2, 2011 by Logiwink