So what I think may have happened to the Dwemer

[eltucu]

The Elder Scrolls are beyond the Aedra or Daedra. Of all the divine-like entities who might have more power than the Scrolls are what i call the 'Primals'. That is, Padomay (Chaos) and Anu (Order)

Wait, what? The elder scrolls arent aedric artifacts? I'd like to see some sources on this. Specially when it seems that the ES tamper specifically with Akatosh domain.

Had he finished, he probably would have made the Dwemer gods like the Tribunal. or at the very least made himself one

Now that would be a good DLC material. Kagrenac as a god.

[Lachdonin]

The Elder Scrolls are beyond the Aedra or Daedra. Of all the divine-like entities who might have more power than the Scrolls are what i call the 'Primals'. That is, Padomay (Chaos) and Anu (Order)

Wait, what? The elder scrolls arent aedric artifacts? I'd like to see some sources on this. Specially when it seems that the ES tamper specifically with Akatosh domain

 

The Orc in the College of Winterhold explains ti quite well, stating that the Scrolls are left-over fragments of creation which even the gods don't tamper with. Since the Et'ada are 3rd generation creations, this means the Elder Scrolls pre-date them. We as external observers also have a greater perspective on the nature of the Scrolls because we know about the Godhead and understand that, technicly, there is no creation, only the Dream. And the Scrolls represent the linerality of that dream.

[eltucu]

The Orc in the College of Winterhold explains ti quite well, stating that the Scrolls are left-over fragments of creation which even the gods don't tamper with. Since the Et'ada are 3rd generation creations, this means the Elder Scrolls pre-date them. We as external observers also have a greater perspective on the nature of the Scrolls because we know about the Godhead and understand that, technicly, there is no creation, only the Dream. And the Scrolls represent the linerality of that dream.

Ahh i see. The thing is, i retrieved the elder scroll before the main quest, so I bugged out that part of the quest.

 

Paarthumax: "You must retrieve the Elder Scroll, but i dont know where to look for it"

Me: "Right here buddy" lol

 

Well, ill try to do the quest in "the official way" this time and see what she says :D

Edited January 8, 2012 by eltucu

[Takashidomo]

The Elder Scrolls are beyond the Aedra or Daedra. Of all the divine-like entities who might have more power than the Scrolls are what i call the 'Primals'. That is, Padomay (Chaos) and Anu (Order)

Wait, what? The elder scrolls arent aedric artifacts? I'd like to see some sources on this. Specially when it seems that the ES tamper specifically with Akatosh domain.

And Hermaeus Mora says something about it.

[Lachdonin]

This is veering off track of the talk about the dissapearance of the Dwemer, but in order to understand the Elder Scrolls, you have to understand something of the TES universe.

 

The Universe exists within the imagination of a sleeping, scitzophrenic God (refered to as the Godhead). Within the nothingness of his dreams two primal entities formed, Padomay (Sometimes called Sithis) and Anu, representing Chaos/Change and Order/Stasis respectivly. From these two primal entities come the Et'ada, each aligned to a particular nature. The Daedra are Padomay aligned, and thus represent various aspects of change. The Aedra are Anu aligned, and thus represent various aspects of stability and order. Of course, the distinctions are not absolute, as there are individuals on both sides who lean more towards the opposing Primal, such as Lorkhan (An Aedra) being associated with change, and Peryte being strictly ordered. This just shows the interactions between Anu and Padomay, rather than having the two as completely independant forces.

 

Now, while Anu and Padomay represent the dual nature of the Godheads dream, the Scrolls are the record of the dream its self, from start to finish. Because they a representitive facet of the Godhead its self, this means they are above both the Daedra and the Aedra. That doesn't mean either can't interact with them, because Mortals surely can, but it means that they do not have absolute power over them.

 

Of course, using the Scrolls comes with risks. Because everything is in fact a dream, no one really exists. People who realise this experience something called Zero-Summing. Theres a journal in Oblivion writen by a Moth Priest whose in the process of Zero-Summing. Essentially, the rational mind destroys its self, because it can't comprehend the interaction of two points. Those pints being "I exist in the universe" (+1) and "The universe doesn't exist" (-1). The equation of course is (+1)+(-1)=0. In otherwords, its becomes "I exist in the universe, but the universe doesn't exist, thus i do not exist" which causes them to essentially poof out of existance.

 

The gods probably understand something of this dynamic, as people who study the Elder Scrolls simply poof away. This is probably why they make the Moth Priests blind over time, to prevent them from learning too much. How much the Gods themselves actually understand of the dynamic is open to interpretation, however, as one would assume they would be subject to the same rules. It could also be that the reading of the Scrolls causes you to go blind by its self, and the blindness is jsut attributed to the Gods by mortals.

 

On the same note, the Mortals could jsut ascribe the Scrolls to being Aedric creations because, acording to mortal mythic cycles, the Gods created the universe. They don't understand the real dynamic of the situation, and find a solution they can understand.

 

Pulling this back to the Dwemer, if the Scroll were responsible i would have imagined the Dwemer would have dissapeared during research, rather than in the middle of a battle. We do know they had a form of telepathic communication, so if one Dwemer realised they didn't really exist it would only be a matter of time before they all realised it and summarily Zero-summed. The fact that they dissapeared during a battle, not during scholarly exploits, is to me proof that the machine to read the Scroll wasn't as effective as it could have been. That doesn't mean, of course, that they didn't learn anything from it, it jsut wasn't the primary cause.

[faifh]

I hope the next Elder Scrolls game has "The return of the Dwemer". That would be cool. Either as partners to the protagonist so s/he must bring them back, but they also would give excellent antagonists, who where brought back by some evil wizard, and who must be stopped, to continue to do whatever they where doing. Anyway, I consider doing more of rumaging through their mysterious ruins becomes boring anyway, so instead of doing the same thing again in the next game, they should either just leave them away (they havent had any settlements where ever it will take place), or make something original with 'em.

 

BTW: In Morrowind it was told in many places, their experimenting with the dead god-hearth and attacking it with the tools was the cause for their disappearance, not an elder-scroll. Something similar happens to Arniel who becomes a shade, but since he had only some twisted soul gem, instead of the true thing, it only happened to him instead of his whole race, like the Dwemer.

Edited January 9, 2012 by faifh

[Anunnak]

If they come back here's a NOT so well thought out idea.

 

The Dwemer emerge from their timeslip or extra-dimensional plane (as some here have suggested), forcing the Thalmor and the Empire/Storm-Cloaks and Argonians (depending on path chosen by the PC) to work together, they send scouts to the nearest locations of Dwemer sightings... some Island(s) doesn't have to be mainland Skyrim. The said party is wiped out, PC is sent in to investigate.

 

Turns out that the Dwemer that did return are an advanced party of scouts... maybe the rest figured out a way to get back from where they are now. Said scouts basically prepare a beachhead for the rest of the Dwemer. Dwemer return to Nirn as conquerors. The Empire is reunited under the PC as a dragonborn emperor or empress. Big fight, many arrows fired... big explosions...

 

PC wins, game over... that's how I can see Bethesda reintroducing the Dwemer.

 

OR, the Dwemer win, drive everyone out or enslave them, the PC is whisked away by a dragon just before he/she is killed.

 

TES VI: you are, wait for it, wait for it... a Prisoner that escapes from a Dwemeri Imperial Prison! yeah you're the descendant of the Dragon born. Turns out the PC eventually got captured or something hehe.

 

 

Like I said, not well thought out. Just random brain storming. A game ending on a sour note or defeat makes sense for a sequel.

Edited January 9, 2012 by Anunnak

[B1ST0]

to be fair they basically just taunted the gods, they didn't worship them then actively antagonized them. Takes a touch of mystery out of it.

[eltucu]

 

This is veering off track of the talk about the dissapearance of the Dwemer, but in order to understand the Elder Scrolls, you have to understand something of the TES universe.

 

The Universe exists within the imagination of a sleeping, scitzophrenic God (refered to as the Godhead). Within the nothingness of his dreams two primal entities formed, Padomay (Sometimes called Sithis) and Anu, representing Chaos/Change and Order/Stasis respectivly. From these two primal entities come the Et'ada, each aligned to a particular nature. The Daedra are Padomay aligned, and thus represent various aspects of change. The Aedra are Anu aligned, and thus represent various aspects of stability and order. Of course, the distinctions are not absolute, as there are individuals on both sides who lean more towards the opposing Primal, such as Lorkhan (An Aedra) being associated with change, and Peryte being strictly ordered. This just shows the interactions between Anu and Padomay, rather than having the two as completely independant forces.

 

Now, while Anu and Padomay represent the dual nature of the Godheads dream, the Scrolls are the record of the dream its self, from start to finish. Because they a representitive facet of the Godhead its self, this means they are above both the Daedra and the Aedra. That doesn't mean either can't interact with them, because Mortals surely can, but it means that they do not have absolute power over them.

 

Of course, using the Scrolls comes with risks. Because everything is in fact a dream, no one really exists. People who realise this experience something called Zero-Summing. Theres a journal in Oblivion writen by a Moth Priest whose in the process of Zero-Summing. Essentially, the rational mind destroys its self, because it can't comprehend the interaction of two points. Those pints being "I exist in the universe" (+1) and "The universe doesn't exist" (-1). The equation of course is (+1)+(-1)=0. In otherwords, its becomes "I exist in the universe, but the universe doesn't exist, thus i do not exist" which causes them to essentially poof out of existance.

 

The gods probably understand something of this dynamic, as people who study the Elder Scrolls simply poof away. This is probably why they make the Moth Priests blind over time, to prevent them from learning too much. How much the Gods themselves actually understand of the dynamic is open to interpretation, however, as one would assume they would be subject to the same rules. It could also be that the reading of the Scrolls causes you to go blind by its self, and the blindness is jsut attributed to the Gods by mortals.

 

On the same note, the Mortals could jsut ascribe the Scrolls to being Aedric creations because, acording to mortal mythic cycles, the Gods created the universe. They don't understand the real dynamic of the situation, and find a solution they can understand.

 

Pulling this back to the Dwemer, if the Scroll were responsible i would have imagined the Dwemer would have dissapeared during research, rather than in the middle of a battle. We do know they had a form of telepathic communication, so if one Dwemer realised they didn't really exist it would only be a matter of time before they all realised it and summarily Zero-summed. The fact that they dissapeared during a battle, not during scholarly exploits, is to me proof that the machine to read the Scroll wasn't as effective as it could have been. That doesn't mean, of course, that they didn't learn anything from it, it jsut wasn't the primary cause.

 

Whoa dude... Like... Whoa!

[Wretch11]

I'd hate to burst anyone's bubble, but the mystery of the Dwemer has been solved since Morrowind...well sorta. Reading the books called Hanging Gardens of Wasten Coridale, The Egg of Time, and Divine Metaphysics revealed a good part of what likely happened. If I'm not mistaken, this was part of a quest.

 

EDIT: Further research proves this is indeed the case... http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Mystery_of_the_Dwarves

Edited January 12, 2012 by Wretch11