LE More reactive melee combat?

[topeira]

Melee Combat ,as is, seems to rely way too much on how much damage one can take before dying and not enough on how skillful the player is.

yeah, this is an RPG so many might expect that , but skyrim DOES provide useful mechanics to make good use of good reflexes but then kinda falls short in implementing them.

 

while i have good ideas that are too complicated without the CK, i AM curious about tweaking some things that might be possible even now -

 

1) right now a player can block and be as defensive and careful as possible yet he will still be beheaded by a powerful bandit even if he's ready to bash and has over 60 HP.

i suggest disabling the finishing moves by the AI. but if possible than make AI finishing moves only available if the player has below 20 health or something.

 

2) make blocking a lot more effective. blocking with a shield should not injure the player and require less stamina than blocking with a weapon. blocking with a weapon, IRL, requires more force from the blocker than blocking with a shield so it should take more stamina.

so blocking with a shield should block 98% of the damage of normal attacks, but only 80% of power attacks.

also blocking with a weapon should block 92% of the damage of normal attacks, but only 70% of power attacks.

this will make blocking more effective and valid as a way to defend oneself.

 

3) normal bashing should be used as a parry move and not as an openning move for farther attacks. this should be done by making bashing at an enemy that is blocking or just standing there less effective (less chance of stagger or shorter stagger as an effect) BUT cost less stamina , do less damage but still be highly effective when done at the same time as an enemy's power attack or normal attack. bashing is fast and should be the best way to open up an enemy if timed just right.

 

4) power bashing, IMO, is fine as is - takes a lot of stamina and can cause piratically anything to stagger.

 

5) slightly slowing down the movement sideways with a weapon drawn so combat is not so floaty. it's fine when u have magic in both hands but not when you have a weapon out. movement forward should remain the same, IMO.

 

6) since blocking is more effective, there needs to be bigger consequences to being hit, so enemies should do more damage. (optional. im playing a melee character with only 140 health in level 26 and with 250 stamina so i die quickly. i think it makes sense to die quickly if blocking prevents more damage)

 

 

Do these changes make sense to you, guys? is there a modder out there that might be interested in trying to tweak these things?

what do you think?

 

 

p.s. - i think other ideas could improve combat significantly like using "hit a blocking enemy" animation as a parry animation used by tapping the sprint button as an enemy attacks - this can be a way for dual wielders or magic+weapon wielders to defend themselves.

also making normal attacks cause very very short stagger to enemies that arent blocking or power attacking (short enough so the enemy has time to block after being staggered before he's hit again).

but these type of ideas are probably not possible yet without the CK and will require some smart coding so im not even going there.... yet....

[topeira]

humpty bumpty

[DiabolusUrsus]

I would love to see a better blocking system. I understand that shields should be more effective than blocking with weapons, and I agree with that. But I'd like to foster my character's image of being a one-handed sword-wielding badass, minus shield. Once the creation kit comes out, here are a few additions I'd like to see.

 

- Reduced humanoid enemy sync-killing rates. It's depressing to be a high-level, powerfully equipped, spell-slinging badass only to be impaled at 3/5 health by a lowly bandit. It really is. However, it's perfectly reasonable to be chomped up by dragons, etc. I agree that it sucks to be randomly butchered by enemies, but I feel that enemy capability to do so should be kept. If I make the mistake of letting my health fall as low as 20%, I think I should suffer for it. Still, consistency would be nice.

- Implement some sort of standardized, consistent way of triggering finishing moves (sync-kills) and avoiding them, for that matter. I'd suggest power attacks that would kill an enemy or the player. 75% chance to trigger on normal hit if health is below 20%.

 

- Improved blocking effectiveness and interactivity.

- Shields block a larger portion of damage and can block arrows, magicka, dragonbreath, etc.

- Weapons block a lower portion of damage, cannot defend against arrows, magicka or dragonbreath, but allow for a parry/counterblow system unavailable to shields.

- Some sort of button sequence to input within a timeframe to negate ALL melee damage and inflict damage, with a slightly higher chance for a critical. Perhaps simply bashing with said weapon near the point of impact.

- More reliable standard weapon blocking. It's irritating to have to try to realign with incoming blows, with the hit detection as confusing as it is.

- 90% chance for sync-kill on fatal counter-hit.

 

EDIT: It has occurred to me that it would be prudent to refund, or at least partially refund stamina cost for weapon bashing upon a successful counter-hit. This would provide a stronger incentive to try for counter-hits, as well as a potential punishment for missing a parry (reduced combat endurance). Perhaps 40-50% stamina cost from a successful parry-bash.

 

- Buffed player magicka damage, nerfed enemy magicka damage. I personally find it horrifyingly irritating to have 80+ destruction skill and deal pathetic magicka damage, whilst enemy mages can sometimes two/three-shot my 310 health character with Lightning Bolt. I'm not saying nerf enemy mages to the point that they can't pose a threat, but I feel that their magic is a little ridiculously overpowered in comparison to the damage dealt by player-cast spells.

 

- Higher chance for the deflect arrows perk to actually... you know, deflect arrows. It first took me ten hits from an enemy bow before one actually hit my shield. All I'm asking is that something be done so that this perk feels like a little bit less of a waste. It would also make it much easier to deal with those damn Ebony Bow-wielding Draugr Deathlords...

 

 

I bring up the whole bandit issue because at this point I can go around killing bears, sabercats and most dragons with impunity (Pretty much any of them except Elder or Ancient dragons.), yet suddenly find myself knocked flat on my ass by a few bandits. Lesser enemies should have reduced scaling caps, in my opinion, because while level scaling is useful for keeping enemies fresh and consistently challenging to the player rather then permitting the player to walk all over everything they encounter, some of the current system is a bit ridiculous. I don't know about the rest of you, but I find fighting humanoid enemies to be the most entertaining, given the variety of finishing moves available. I WANT to be able to slaughter puny bandits in a godlike manner post level 35. It'd also make saving random travelers from them a whole lot easier, which is also something I like to do.

Edited November 24, 2011 by DiabolusUrsus

[Terralventhe]

I'd like the idea of melee combat being connective. As in if you swing your sword, and the enemy swings his sword, and they hit each other, the both of you bounce back from the connected hit. Would make for some nice parrying combat features.

[topeira]

I would love to see a better blocking system. I understand that shields should be more effective than blocking with weapons, and I agree with that. But I'd like to foster my character's image of being a one-handed sword-wielding badass, minus shield. Once the creation kit comes out, here are a few additions I'd like to see.

 

- Reduced humanoid enemy sync-killing rates. It's depressing to be a high-level, powerfully equipped, spell-slinging badass only to be impaled at 3/5 health by a lowly bandit. It really is. However, it's perfectly reasonable to be chomped up by dragons, etc. I agree that it sucks to be randomly butchered by enemies, but I feel that enemy capability to do so should be kept. If I make the mistake of letting my health fall as low as 20%, I think I should suffer for it. Still, consistency would be nice.

- Implement some sort of standardized, consistent way of triggering finishing moves (sync-kills) and avoiding them, for that matter. I'd suggest power attacks that would kill an enemy or the player. 75% chance to trigger on normal hit if health is below 20%.

 

- Improved blocking effectiveness and interactivity.

- Shields block a larger portion of damage and can block arrows, magicka, dragonbreath, etc.

- Weapons block a lower portion of damage, cannot defend against arrows, magicka or dragonbreath, but allow for a parry/counterblow system unavailable to shields.

- Some sort of button sequence to input within a timeframe to negate ALL melee damage and inflict damage, with a slightly higher chance for a critical. Perhaps simply bashing with said weapon near the point of impact.

- More reliable standard weapon blocking. It's irritating to have to try to realign with incoming blows, with the hit detection as confusing as it is.

- 90% chance for sync-kill on fatal counter-hit.

 

EDIT: It has occurred to me that it would be prudent to refund, or at least partially refund stamina cost for weapon bashing upon a successful counter-hit. This would provide a stronger incentive to try for counter-hits, as well as a potential punishment for missing a parry (reduced combat endurance). Perhaps 40-50% stamina cost from a successful parry-bash.

 

- Buffed player magicka damage, nerfed enemy magicka damage. I personally find it horrifyingly irritating to have 80+ destruction skill and deal pathetic magicka damage, whilst enemy mages can sometimes two/three-shot my 310 health character with Lightning Bolt. I'm not saying nerf enemy mages to the point that they can't pose a threat, but I feel that their magic is a little ridiculously overpowered in comparison to the damage dealt by player-cast spells.

 

- Higher chance for the deflect arrows perk to actually... you know, deflect arrows. It first took me ten hits from an enemy bow before one actually hit my shield. All I'm asking is that something be done so that this perk feels like a little bit less of a waste. It would also make it much easier to deal with those damn Ebony Bow-wielding Draugr Deathlords...

 

 

I bring up the whole bandit issue because at this point I can go around killing bears, sabercats and most dragons with impunity (Pretty much any of them except Elder or Ancient dragons.), yet suddenly find myself knocked flat on my ass by a few bandits. Lesser enemies should have reduced scaling caps, in my opinion, because while level scaling is useful for keeping enemies fresh and consistently challenging to the player rather then permitting the player to walk all over everything they encounter, some of the current system is a bit ridiculous. I don't know about the rest of you, but I find fighting humanoid enemies to be the most entertaining, given the variety of finishing moves available. I WANT to be able to slaughter puny bandits in a godlike manner post level 35. It'd also make saving random travelers from them a whole lot easier, which is also something I like to do.

 

yes. yes. and yes.

 

i agree with most of what you said.

 

first of all - about the scalling system: im gonna do some blasphemy now, if u dont mind - i'd prefer the action-game method here: somehow making certain enemies and weapons do the same amount of damage to the player regardless of his level. bears should kill the PC in about 5 hits, as well as saber cats. 1 handed swords should kill a player in 6 - 10 hits (depends on the enemy type and the PC's armor) and two handed weapons should kill him in 4-7 hits. (normal ones. not power ones). how to implement such a thing is not the topic of this thread.

digressing.

 

 

SO...

 

 

- parrying animations are already there - the bashing with a sword+empty hand and bashing with a torch (actually i prefer the "attack an enemy while he's blocking with shield" animation. this lil bit of false hit looks appropriate for a parrying animation). these animations can be used for a new parry button. not a new button on a keyboard but a new use of an existing button. as i suggested - the SPRINT button, which isnt used during anyways unless held alongside the forward button. tapping it should cause the said animation to play , even with a magic+empty hand or dual wielding (unless the PC uses magic) and cause a stagger to the enemy.

 

- i'd also wish to see normal attacks causing staggering at an enemy that isnt blocking or power attacking. the shortest kind. however if every time you hit an enemy u cancel his attacks than i dont know how it will effect the gameplay. it might break hit as enemies will not block right after being hit to prevent a "staggering loop till dead" battles and also what will non blocking enemies do? (mages, archers, dual wielders, battle mages and beasts like bears, spiders or trolls?)

 

- i dont think that regaining stamina from a succesful parry should apply. parrying takes effort. power. small stamina cost should still be applied, IMO.

however i also think that swords should have better parrying than shields by creating longer staggering on the enemies part. also if one is using weapon+empty hand than he isnt encumbered by the weight of the shield with his attacks so his hits should do about 20% more damage and an additional 5% for criticals with a sword.

 

But just for starters i just wish that a modder, like "site bot" who made so many nice gameplay mods (bows and arrows , mostly), would just fart a little mod that makes blocking about 95% effective against normal hits and about 75% effective against power attacks and also make the sync-kills, as u call them, by the AI either none existent (as you said - to prevent the "im winning, one more strike against this fool, im in 80% health, im gonna kill him... WTF i got impaled?!) or existant only at the last 15 health points.

 

that's all is needed for now. THESE changes seem possible even without the CK, but it doesnt look like modders care. like none of them plays a melee character :(

[Deleted2039153User]

I would love to see a better blocking system. I understand that shields should be more effective than blocking with weapons, and I agree with that. But I'd like to foster my character's image of being a one-handed sword-wielding badass, minus shield. Once the creation kit comes out, here are a few additions I'd like to see.

 

You're a good person and you should feel good about yourself.

 

Your ideas were awesome too, hopefully someone can make that happen once the Creation Kit comes out.

[Lokiron]

Read first post (not the subsequent ones), and I think you should consider the impact on characters that do not block such as dual wielders and arcane warriors. But I do agree that combat could be better. Dark Messiah is still far far better control-wise.

 

EDIT: Took the time to read DiabolusUrsus post. Very good stuff. Disregarding the whole discussion

on relative effectiveness, I like the idea of differentiating weapon parry from shield block. Several types of characters would benefit from this: Two-handers, empty-handers, dual-wielders, spell in off-handers. I agree the way to go would be to make the weaponblock an agressive riposte. Shield should be the best to avoid damage, so non-shield-users should have something different.

Good stuff!

Edited November 24, 2011 by Lokiron

[topeira]

Read first post (not the subsequent ones), and I think you should consider the impact on characters that do not block such as dual wielders and arcane warriors. But I do agree that combat could be better. Dark Messiah is still far far better control-wise.

 

EDIT: Took the time to read DiabolusUrsus post. Very good stuff. Disregarding the whole discussion

on relative effectiveness, I like the idea of differentiating weapon parry from shield block. Several types of characters would benefit from this: Two-handers, empty-handers, dual-wielders, spell in off-handers. I agree the way to go would be to make the weaponblock an agressive riposte. Shield should be the best to avoid damage, so non-shield-users should have something different.

Good stuff!

 

the idea , IMO, is to make blocking a way to avoid damage easily (holding block). using another button (the sprint button or the SHEATH button) to do another animation that will parry attacks will result in an extra move that is more reflex based that will prevent damage for all characters that have something physical to parry with. i dont think fists and magic should be able to parry metal though (not to mention that there is no existing animations for blocking with fists or magic. there ARE animations that can be used for a PARRY move).

also dual wielders and magic+weapon warriors can use PARRY as a way to deflect attacks but parrying requires good timing , so it's harder than blocking. it "should" retain the balance - defensive stances with easier defense and weaker offense OR great offense but needing to rely on reflexes. blocking two handed weapons is easy with parrying and bashing, but blocking one handed weapons will be much harder.

 

also i wonder if mods will allow players to CANCEL their attack in order to block. it makes sense (mostly gameplay wise) that if i started a swing and i wish to cancel it in favor of a block than as long as i try to holdd block while my character is still just taking momentum before the actual swing - i should be able to. right now if i ta the attack button with a dual handed weapon than im commited for a 1.3 seconds animation of a regular swing and can't do $hit about it. makes attacking with two handeds a matter ot taking damage no matter what against one haded NPCs.

also i think that staggering as a result of a two handed normal attack should be resent. the swings are so slow that it will give the attacked NPC enough time to stagger, regain balance and still hit the player before the second swing.

 

but where are the modders that can eliminate the automatic finishers of NPCs against the PC? and surely it isnt that complicated to make blocking more effective (make it prevent more damage). if a modder is reading this - please let us know if this can be done.

 

also, i'd like to hear more thoughts about this discussion.

[Lokiron]

 

the idea , IMO, is to make blocking a way to avoid damage easily (holding block). using another button (the sprint button or the SHEATH button) to do another animation that will parry attacks will result in an extra move that is more reflex based that will prevent damage for all characters that have something physical to parry with. i dont think fists and magic should be able to parry metal though (not to mention that there is no existing animations for blocking with fists or magic. there ARE animations that can be used for a PARRY move).

also dual wielders and magic+weapon warriors can use PARRY as a way to deflect attacks but parrying requires good timing , so it's harder than blocking. it "should" retain the balance - defensive stances with easier defense and weaker offense OR great offense but needing to rely on reflexes. blocking two handed weapons is easy with parrying and bashing, but blocking one handed weapons will be much harder.

 

 

I really like the idea behind this, but the controls pose a problem. As you hold block the sprint buttom is available for an implemented riposte, but while NOT blocking, the sprint buttom is not available. What to do?

 

EDIT: Fundamentally, I actually think block should've been mouse4 and not mouse2. This would always allow block while holding any weapon. To balance this, shield would simply be better than weapons and allow bash using mouse2. No crap about not being able to block with only one hand - what the f***, man, we're freaking DRAGONBORN HEROES!!

Edited November 24, 2011 by Lokiron

[topeira]

 

I really like the idea behind this, but the controls pose a problem. As you hold block the sprint buttom is available for an implemented riposte, but while NOT blocking, the sprint buttom is not available. What to do?

 

EDIT: Fundamentally, I actually think block should've been mouse4 and not mouse2. This would always allow block while holding any weapon. To balance this, shield would simply be better than weapons and allow bash using mouse2. No crap about not being able to block with only one hand - what the f***, man, we're freaking DRAGONBORN HEROES!!

 

what do you mean " As you hold block the sprint buttom is available for an implemented riposte"? what is this feature i know nothing about?

what is this riposte?

 

also i think that parry (sprint button) should be done when NOT blocking. that's the beauty of it - you either block or ready for a parry. u cant hide behind blocking and miss a parry and nothing will happen. u take a risk by being open in order to get a good parry. but for that to be effective the parry needs to be more effective than a normal bash. otherwise blocking characters would only bash and not parry.

 

but seriously - what is this riposte thingy?