The DB let me down. Here's how to save it.

[Lachdonin]

@ Haiken, isn't it a possibility that they already knew where the Sancuary was? I mean, it's not exactly well hidden... The Imperials could have just been waiting for an oportune moment to clear it out, as they had apparently done with every other Sancuary, and Astrid's attempt of bargaining just gave them the opportunity to strike while the guard was down.

 

Still, i feel like the DB arc was overall good, and ends on a 'positive' (as positive as you can get with nothingness-worshiping murders) note, if it was a little short. More of a lead up to the Emperor thing would have been prefered... A few assassinations to redirecdt the focus of the authorities for instance...

[HaikenEdge]

@ Haiken, isn't it a possibility that they already knew where the Sancuary was? I mean, it's not exactly well hidden... The Imperials could have just been waiting for an oportune moment to clear it out, as they had apparently done with every other Sancuary, and Astrid's attempt of bargaining just gave them the opportunity to strike while the guard was down.

 

Still, i feel like the DB arc was overall good, and ends on a 'positive' (as positive as you can get with nothingness-worshiping murders) note, if it was a little short. More of a lead up to the Emperor thing would have been prefered... A few assassinations to redirecdt the focus of the authorities for instance...

It seems improbable; the Dark Brotherhood doesn't seem high on the Empire's list of priorities (Thalmor, Stormcloaks, even Forsworn would be higher on the list), and the resources it would take to scour all of Skyrim for a Dark Brotherhood hideout would require an expenditure of resources better spent on combating the Stormcloaks, the Forsworn, or stockpiling in the inevitable new conflict with the Thalmor.

 

Plus, even if they knew where it was, they'd lack the ability to get in; ie, the passcode for the door. That had to be given to them. And giving them the password itself is stupid on so many levels.

[Miraboreasu]

I like a lot of your ideas, but that's mostly because I was really disappointed by the Dark Brotherhood arc, which I felt had a nonsensical and railroaded end. I'll include my anger in a spoiler tag:

 

 

The Dark Brotherhood resolution was absolutely stupid. I'd say Astrid is a saavy, if not smart, woman, considering that she pretty much ran the Dark Brotherhood (with some success) prior to the player's and Cicero's joining. Therefore, even if she was trading the player to the Empire to preserve her little family, surely she wouldn't be so stupid as to tell her enemy exactly where her headquarters are; that's just inviting tragedy, like telling a burglar exactly when you're not going to be home. That's my primary beef with the Dark Brotherhood story arc.

 

Actually, if you do the Destroy the Dark Brotherhood quest, it appears Maro already knows of the location of the door, and it's password. It appears that what information was gathered by the empire was that the Brotherhood was in a state of despair, and was vulnerable.

 

 

 

I will say that it was still unsatisfying though.

 

That, to me, is a plot hole in itself; if only the Dark Brotherhood members know the password (as should be the case, considering some Dark Brotherhood members don't even know the passwords to other sanctuaries beyond their home), the the only way Maro would know the password is if he had a mole inside. If he had a mole inside, it's likely the mole wasn't killed during the "Kill the Dark Brotherhood" quest, or when Maro's agents razed the Sanctuary to the ground, meaning, the only possible mole is Babette, but Babette takes far too much pleasure in the death of the Emperor, making her an unlikely suspect. If that's the case, then surely Maro's mole is in fact Astrid, which makes her doubly stupid, because she gave up the password and location for nothing.

 

Of course, unless Babette is Maro's mole... in which case, I wonder how she feels about the death of Maro; she certainly seemed to revel in it.

 

Did you ever find Gabriella's corpse? I searched every room I could for it, and never found her. Until I found Astrid, I assumed SHE was the mole. She might still have been. Her loyalty to the nightmother was something entirely at contrast with the rest of the brotherhood, and I always felt that were a civil war to break loose, she would betray Astrid at the whim of Cicero and the Night Mother.

 

Arbjorn was out of the question, and I have HUGE doubts that Veezara would betray the only life he ever knew. Festus, however, was outside, which is suspicious, though no other motives were given beyond him having opposition to the Night Mother.

 

Unless someone can find Gabriella's corpse, I suspect she might be that very mole.

 

Alternatively, if you were NOT a member of the DB, and had a high karma, the DB sends assassins after you. (I, myself, had to deal with a VERY powerful female Khajiit assassin before I ever found the brotherhood.) The brotherhood also mentions some members have died on the job. Perhaps the mole was already dead before you ever joined the sanctuary, yet the password and location were known to them.

 

Edited November 27, 2011 by Miraboreasu

[LittleGoblin]

I thougth the DB was amazing in Oblivion. I saved the quest line for a stealth based character. It started good but just like every other faction in Skyrim they let you in way to fast. It was good when you use to have to work your way up in rank and earn trust. Instead of just freefall in to becoming the listener or other title. It was still fun but just.. lacking so much. Just like the Companions I thought their 'secret' was going to be well trusted not let out within 3 tasks.

 

 

My rant is over I do really enjoy the game a lot.

[HaikenEdge]

I like a lot of your ideas, but that's mostly because I was really disappointed by the Dark Brotherhood arc, which I felt had a nonsensical and railroaded end. I'll include my anger in a spoiler tag:

 

 

The Dark Brotherhood resolution was absolutely stupid. I'd say Astrid is a saavy, if not smart, woman, considering that she pretty much ran the Dark Brotherhood (with some success) prior to the player's and Cicero's joining. Therefore, even if she was trading the player to the Empire to preserve her little family, surely she wouldn't be so stupid as to tell her enemy exactly where her headquarters are; that's just inviting tragedy, like telling a burglar exactly when you're not going to be home. That's my primary beef with the Dark Brotherhood story arc.

 

Actually, if you do the Destroy the Dark Brotherhood quest, it appears Maro already knows of the location of the door, and it's password. It appears that what information was gathered by the empire was that the Brotherhood was in a state of despair, and was vulnerable.

 

 

 

I will say that it was still unsatisfying though.

 

That, to me, is a plot hole in itself; if only the Dark Brotherhood members know the password (as should be the case, considering some Dark Brotherhood members don't even know the passwords to other sanctuaries beyond their home), the the only way Maro would know the password is if he had a mole inside. If he had a mole inside, it's likely the mole wasn't killed during the "Kill the Dark Brotherhood" quest, or when Maro's agents razed the Sanctuary to the ground, meaning, the only possible mole is Babette, but Babette takes far too much pleasure in the death of the Emperor, making her an unlikely suspect. If that's the case, then surely Maro's mole is in fact Astrid, which makes her doubly stupid, because she gave up the password and location for nothing.

 

Of course, unless Babette is Maro's mole... in which case, I wonder how she feels about the death of Maro; she certainly seemed to revel in it.

 

Did you ever find Gabriella's corpse? I searched every room I could for it, and never found her. Until I found Astrid, I assumed SHE was the mole. She might still have been. Her loyalty to the nightmother was something entirely at contrast with the rest of the brotherhood, and I always felt that were a civil war to break loose, she would betray Astrid at the whim of Cicero and the Night Mother.

 

Arbjorn was out of the question, and I have HUGE doubts that Veezara would betray the only life he ever knew. Festus, however, was outside, which is suspicious, though no other motives were given beyond him having opposition to the Night Mother.

 

Unless someone can find Gabriella's corpse, I suspect she might be that very mole.

 

Alternatively, if you were NOT a member of the DB, and had a high karma, the DB sends assassins after you. (I, myself, had to deal with a VERY powerful female Khajiit assassin before I ever found the brotherhood.) The brotherhood also mentions some members have died on the job. Perhaps the mole was already dead before you ever joined the sanctuary, yet the password and location were known to them.

 

 

Surely, if Gabriella is as devoted to the Night Mother as you say she is (I don't remember, I didn't interact with her much, because I could never find her), she wouldn't betray the Dark Brotherhood to the Empire, at least not in a manner where it would be razed completely. Festus, on the other hand, wanted to return to the old ways of the Dark Brotherhood, so it's unlikely he would be the mole, since the old way included worshipping the Night Mother. According to the UESP, Gabriella doesn't survive the attack on the Sanctuary.

 

I suppose Nazir might be a mole; like Babette, he survived the raid, and is now one of the higher ups of the Dark Brotherhood; if anything, if he's an agent of the Empire, he would have even more sway within the organization.

 

I suppose it's possible that the mole was in the organization prior to the player's joining or razing it, but that seems improbable because, if that's the case, the Empire would have to be wary of the intelligence, because their mole would be dead, so the accuracy of the intelligence itself could possibly be compromised; the fact the Empire seems confident in the intel suggests that it's recent, and the person who provided it was alive to confirm its accuracy

 

[Miraboreasu]

I like a lot of your ideas, but that's mostly because I was really disappointed by the Dark Brotherhood arc, which I felt had a nonsensical and railroaded end. I'll include my anger in a spoiler tag:

 

 

The Dark Brotherhood resolution was absolutely stupid. I'd say Astrid is a saavy, if not smart, woman, considering that she pretty much ran the Dark Brotherhood (with some success) prior to the player's and Cicero's joining. Therefore, even if she was trading the player to the Empire to preserve her little family, surely she wouldn't be so stupid as to tell her enemy exactly where her headquarters are; that's just inviting tragedy, like telling a burglar exactly when you're not going to be home. That's my primary beef with the Dark Brotherhood story arc.

 

Actually, if you do the Destroy the Dark Brotherhood quest, it appears Maro already knows of the location of the door, and it's password. It appears that what information was gathered by the empire was that the Brotherhood was in a state of despair, and was vulnerable.

 

 

 

I will say that it was still unsatisfying though.

 

That, to me, is a plot hole in itself; if only the Dark Brotherhood members know the password (as should be the case, considering some Dark Brotherhood members don't even know the passwords to other sanctuaries beyond their home), the the only way Maro would know the password is if he had a mole inside. If he had a mole inside, it's likely the mole wasn't killed during the "Kill the Dark Brotherhood" quest, or when Maro's agents razed the Sanctuary to the ground, meaning, the only possible mole is Babette, but Babette takes far too much pleasure in the death of the Emperor, making her an unlikely suspect. If that's the case, then surely Maro's mole is in fact Astrid, which makes her doubly stupid, because she gave up the password and location for nothing.

 

Of course, unless Babette is Maro's mole... in which case, I wonder how she feels about the death of Maro; she certainly seemed to revel in it.

 

Did you ever find Gabriella's corpse? I searched every room I could for it, and never found her. Until I found Astrid, I assumed SHE was the mole. She might still have been. Her loyalty to the nightmother was something entirely at contrast with the rest of the brotherhood, and I always felt that were a civil war to break loose, she would betray Astrid at the whim of Cicero and the Night Mother.

 

Arbjorn was out of the question, and I have HUGE doubts that Veezara would betray the only life he ever knew. Festus, however, was outside, which is suspicious, though no other motives were given beyond him having opposition to the Night Mother.

 

Unless someone can find Gabriella's corpse, I suspect she might be that very mole.

 

Alternatively, if you were NOT a member of the DB, and had a high karma, the DB sends assassins after you. (I, myself, had to deal with a VERY powerful female Khajiit assassin before I ever found the brotherhood.) The brotherhood also mentions some members have died on the job. Perhaps the mole was already dead before you ever joined the sanctuary, yet the password and location were known to them.

 

 

Surely, if Gabriella is as devoted to the Night Mother as you say she is (I don't remember, I didn't interact with her much, because I could never find her), she wouldn't betray the Dark Brotherhood to the Empire, at least not in a manner where it would be razed completely. Festus, on the other hand, wanted to return to the old ways of the Dark Brotherhood, so it's unlikely he would be the mole, since the old way included worshipping the Night Mother. According to the UESP, Gabriella doesn't survive the attack on the Sanctuary.

 

I suppose Nazir might be a mole; like Babette, he survived the raid, and is now one of the higher ups of the Dark Brotherhood; if anything, if he's an agent of the Empire, he would have even more sway within the organization.

 

I suppose it's possible that the mole was in the organization prior to the player's joining or razing it, but that seems improbable because, if that's the case, the Empire would have to be wary of the intelligence, because their mole would be dead, so the accuracy of the intelligence itself could possibly be compromised; the fact the Empire seems confident in the intel suggests that it's recent, and the person who provided it was alive to confirm its accuracy

 

The mole being killed or found doesn't change the location or the password, since both were entirely static. The only intel the Empire had in this scenario, and needed were those two things. When they find out that Astrid wishes to sacrifice a member of their group in order to ensure their safety, they now realize that the brotherhood is in a vulnerable spot, and decide to strike when they are at their weakest, and likely busy.

 

Now were they to have lost their mole, the empire would have been in a state of ambiguity, and would NOT attack the brotherhood for fear that they may be expecting them. In the Destroy the Dark Brotherhood quest, it is only news of Astrid's demise that causes Maro to initiate a strike against the now leaderless brotherhood.

 

I'm not saying that's what happened, but that's what appears to have happened, given Maro's previous knowledge of the location and password, and unwillingness to attack until that opportune moment.

 

There lies another scenario where an imperial agent may have tailed a DB assassin back to the sanctuary, and at some point overheard the password. Despite sneaking up on the DB being practically impossible, a well trained agent could very well have done it through some sort of invisibility spell.

 

Edited November 27, 2011 by Miraboreasu

[Floppycat]

I don't like the idea of quests having a deadline. I don't like time based stuff at all really, and what would happen if the time ran out? Would it be possible to just go back and say "hello, sorry for failing, can I please restart?"

 

I'd rather have it as usual, where you can pick up and do the quests whenever you like.

 

Other than that, I like your ideas!

 

Though I'd also like to see more possibilities to administrate the DB. Right now, I'm doing everything by myself, when my job should really be just listening to the night mother and then hand out the quests to my associates. If they where going to make a DB-DLC, they should really fix that! I'd rather be a speaker and recruit DB-members with an actual personality, and say, a unique name, than doing endless questing for the Night Mother with no point at all.

 

Other things they messed up in my opinion was that some quests took place inside dungeons. I mean seriously, I don't see it as a stealthy MURDER of someone when I'm strolling around a huge cave, killing 20 bandits just to get close to the final target, which of course attacks me on sight!

 

I'd rather sneak inside someones bedroom and strangle the person to death, or plant a poisonous apple in the persons home, than doing another generic "go into cave - kill everything" quest. I thought the quest in Oblivion where you're at a party, killing everyone one by one without the others noticing was brilliant! The Skyrim-DB had so many dumbed down dungeon quests that didn't feel dark brotherhoodish at all!

 

I'd also like to see more alternatives for the killings. It's not much fun when the other DB associates talk about different ways they killed people (babette luring old ladies, the old man acting as a wise story teller etc) when my option always seems to be "walk up to victim, say hello, kill the person with the usual bonk-with-sword method". It would be fun with some special equipment for different ways of killing. A suggestion would be a gag-wrap to use in stealth mode from behind the victim, to make the dude shut up and then drag the person into a distant room for a nice stealth kill. Different kind of outfits to trigger different kinds of dialog. Say a nice dress to lure the victim that you're a prostitute, and then killing him/her inside say a room at an inn, for example.

 

I'd also like to see items inside rooms that can be used for "accidental" killings. Like "accidentaly" pushing down a huge statue on someones head. There should also be options for pushing down people down cliffs and such. Some traps would be interesting as well, like the bear traps that can be seen in some dungeons. Would be really fun to plant out one of those, be able to insult the victim, which then begins chasing you, only to get stuck in a bear trap on the way! The point is that I think it feels more assasin-style when you can't be connected to the murder, and therefor being able to use creative options to solve that in fun ways! I had loads of problems with this during the questlines, as many quests involved killing someone that kind of just stood at the same spot inside a town 24/7 with 3 guards patroling around. I couldn't even kill a girl that was sleeping in her bed without getting noticed, because her whole family woke up and called the guards! (Even though I killed her in stealth mode and her family where sleeping 2 rooms away, with 2 closed doors in between..)

[HaikenEdge]

I suppose you're right; it just seems impractical, since part of the Dark Brotherhood's MO has been "Get in, get out, don't get caught". Either way, it's a moot point.

 

I think the best way to expand the Dark Brotherhood in a mod is for the player, as the head of the organization, to create opportunities where new brothers and sisters can be born, possibly through the situations you yourself mentioned, as a way to create new, named recruits to join the organization. From there, the Radiant quests given during Dark Brotherhood Forever could then be pawned off to the new recruits, who would then go out and do said quests, keeping most of the cash for themselves while putting some into the organization's coffers, even eventually rising in rank.

 

 

I really think, in order for any mod to make the Dark Brotherhood worthwhile while staying with what occurs during the Dark Brotherhood arc, at least half of it should focus on rebuilding the organization by rejuvenating it with fresh blood. I also think players should have the option to check each candidate's background, to see if the candidate has ties with another organization, lest the new recruit somehow damages the organization from within.

 

Also, being the Listener, I think the mod should include the option for the player to expand and/or contract the organization's role within Skyrim, creating new ties with different organizations as necessary, or cutting existing ones (I'm looking at Maven Black-Briar [Who I think actually doesn't have ties, if you invade her house and check her basement]) or Morgan Frey), possibly even going as far as attracting merchants the way the Thieves Guild does.

 

[Miraboreasu]

I suppose you're right; it just seems impractical, since part of the Dark Brotherhood's MO has been "Get in, get out, don't get caught". Either way, it's a moot point.

 

I think the best way to expand the Dark Brotherhood in a mod is for the player, as the head of the organization, to create opportunities where new brothers and sisters can be born, possibly through the situations you yourself mentioned, as a way to create new, named recruits to join the organization. From there, the Radiant quests given during Dark Brotherhood Forever could then be pawned off to the new recruits, who would then go out and do said quests, keeping most of the cash for themselves while putting some into the organization's coffers, even eventually rising in rank.

 

 

I really think, in order for any mod to make the Dark Brotherhood worthwhile while staying with what occurs during the Dark Brotherhood arc, at least half of it should focus on rebuilding the organization by rejuvenating it with fresh blood. I also think players should have the option to check each candidate's background, to see if the candidate has ties with another organization, lest the new recruit somehow damages the organization from within.

 

Also, being the Listener, I think the mod should include the option for the player to expand and/or contract the organization's role within Skyrim, creating new ties with different organizations as necessary, or cutting existing ones (I'm looking at Maven Black-Briar [Who I think actually doesn't have ties, if you invade her house and check her basement]) or Morgan Frey), possibly even going as far as attracting merchants the way the Thieves Guild does.

I agree, actually. I think making ties with the thieves guild should be a very important matter, and perhaps ties with the Mage's College would provide access to poisons, or useful scrolls, possibly with unique and quest-specific effects, like assuming someone's identity. Perhaps siding with the Companions would give your underlings access to very high quality weapons, or even stronger armor.

 

Perhaps when hiring specialists, or making said connections, you can make the contracts you do have very drastically different paths to how you fulfill them. Hiring new assassins could make for very potent joint-operations, in which you order another assassin with you to make preparations for you, or even the other way around. Maybe sometimes your job is less to pull the trigger, and more to pull the strings, but in a unique, and fun way.

 

Maybe for once, you get to play the Cheshire Cat, and lurk around, leading people and spinning webs. Maybe assassins could come to you FOR advice on contracts, and your answer could very well be the thing that saves their life, or gets them killed. Losing important members like this would have course change the radiant quests.

Edited November 27, 2011 by Miraboreasu

[HaikenEdge]

I suppose you're right; it just seems impractical, since part of the Dark Brotherhood's MO has been "Get in, get out, don't get caught". Either way, it's a moot point.

 

I think the best way to expand the Dark Brotherhood in a mod is for the player, as the head of the organization, to create opportunities where new brothers and sisters can be born, possibly through the situations you yourself mentioned, as a way to create new, named recruits to join the organization. From there, the Radiant quests given during Dark Brotherhood Forever could then be pawned off to the new recruits, who would then go out and do said quests, keeping most of the cash for themselves while putting some into the organization's coffers, even eventually rising in rank.

 

 

I really think, in order for any mod to make the Dark Brotherhood worthwhile while staying with what occurs during the Dark Brotherhood arc, at least half of it should focus on rebuilding the organization by rejuvenating it with fresh blood. I also think players should have the option to check each candidate's background, to see if the candidate has ties with another organization, lest the new recruit somehow damages the organization from within.

 

Also, being the Listener, I think the mod should include the option for the player to expand and/or contract the organization's role within Skyrim, creating new ties with different organizations as necessary, or cutting existing ones (I'm looking at Maven Black-Briar [Who I think actually doesn't have ties, if you invade her house and check her basement]) or Morgan Frey), possibly even going as far as attracting merchants the way the Thieves Guild does.

I agree, actually. I think making ties with the thieves guild should be a very important matter, and perhaps ties with the Mage's College would provide access to poisons, or useful scrolls, possibly with unique and quest-specific effects, like assuming someone's identity. Perhaps siding with the Companions would give your underlings access to very high quality weapons, or even stronger armor.

 

Perhaps when hiring specialists, or making said connections, you can make the contracts you do have very drastically different paths to how you fulfill them. Hiring new assassins could make for very potent joint-operations, in which you order another assassin with you to make preparations for you, or even the other way around. Maybe sometimes your job is less to pull the trigger, and more to pull the strings, but in a unique, and fun way.

 

Maybe for once, you get to play the Cheshire Cat, and lurk around, leading people and spinning webs.

This is of great interest to me; it reminds me of a conversation from the television series, "The Unit":

 

 

Character A: How do you kill a man that you can’t get to?

Character B: I don’t know, how?

Character A: Loosen the kill chain.

Character B: Come again?

Character A: Loosen the kill chain.

Character B: Find, fix, track and kill?

Character A: Yes, indeed.

Character B: But what you’re saying makes no sense; the goal is to tighten the kill chain.

Character A: No, the goal is to kill the target.

 

 

With that in mind, some of the possible jobs might not even have to be direct assassinations; instead, the job might be to locate a NPC who can kill a target the player couldn't normally reach, by setting that NPC up to want to kill the target on their own.

 

That aside, I don't see the Dark Brotherhood allying with the Companions, simply because the Companions believe in honor and direct combat; doesn't mean they can't come to an agreement with another blacksmith, though.