The DB let me down. Here's how to save it.

[Thoreai]

Well i finished today the DB story and i was really dissapointed...first i thought when hearing people complaining, that it might be overdone...but nope...never really felt like im doing some DB q...no real feeling of that dark mystical atmosphere the DB in oblivion had, the whole place where DB was, just wasnt fitting for it...always felt like im in some rat hole.

 

I understand they were at the end but this screams from every direction "lets do the DB story realy quick so they have more quests availiable", no connection at all...

[Miraboreasu]

I suppose you're right; it just seems impractical, since part of the Dark Brotherhood's MO has been "Get in, get out, don't get caught". Either way, it's a moot point.

 

I think the best way to expand the Dark Brotherhood in a mod is for the player, as the head of the organization, to create opportunities where new brothers and sisters can be born, possibly through the situations you yourself mentioned, as a way to create new, named recruits to join the organization. From there, the Radiant quests given during Dark Brotherhood Forever could then be pawned off to the new recruits, who would then go out and do said quests, keeping most of the cash for themselves while putting some into the organization's coffers, even eventually rising in rank.

 

 

I really think, in order for any mod to make the Dark Brotherhood worthwhile while staying with what occurs during the Dark Brotherhood arc, at least half of it should focus on rebuilding the organization by rejuvenating it with fresh blood. I also think players should have the option to check each candidate's background, to see if the candidate has ties with another organization, lest the new recruit somehow damages the organization from within.

 

Also, being the Listener, I think the mod should include the option for the player to expand and/or contract the organization's role within Skyrim, creating new ties with different organizations as necessary, or cutting existing ones (I'm looking at Maven Black-Briar [Who I think actually doesn't have ties, if you invade her house and check her basement]) or Morgan Frey), possibly even going as far as attracting merchants the way the Thieves Guild does.

I agree, actually. I think making ties with the thieves guild should be a very important matter, and perhaps ties with the Mage's College would provide access to poisons, or useful scrolls, possibly with unique and quest-specific effects, like assuming someone's identity. Perhaps siding with the Companions would give your underlings access to very high quality weapons, or even stronger armor.

 

Perhaps when hiring specialists, or making said connections, you can make the contracts you do have very drastically different paths to how you fulfill them. Hiring new assassins could make for very potent joint-operations, in which you order another assassin with you to make preparations for you, or even the other way around. Maybe sometimes your job is less to pull the trigger, and more to pull the strings, but in a unique, and fun way.

 

Maybe for once, you get to play the Cheshire Cat, and lurk around, leading people and spinning webs.

This is of great interest to me; it reminds me of a conversation from the television series, "The Unit":

 

 

Character A: How do you kill a man that you can’t get to?

Character B: I don’t know, how?

Character A: Loosen the kill chain.

Character B: Come again?

Character A: Loosen the kill chain.

Character B: Find, fix, track and kill?

Character A: Yes, indeed.

Character B: But what you’re saying makes no sense; the goal is to tighten the kill chain.

Character A: No, the goal is to kill the target.

 

 

With that in mind, some of the possible jobs might not even have to be direct assassinations; instead, the job might be to locate a NPC who can kill a target the player couldn't normally reach, by setting that NPC up to want to kill the target on their own.

 

That aside, I don't see the Dark Brotherhood allying with the Companions, simply because the Companions believe in honor and direct combat; doesn't mean they can't come to an agreement with another blacksmith, though.

The brotherhood could threaten to reveal the "secret" nature of the Circle, and instead use that as blackmail. It certainly would hurt their standing among the people of Whiterun. I would imagine that the brotherhood is strong in the business of finding secrets, as well as keeping them.

 

But yes, manipulation could work as well. Perhaps instead of killing the unreachable head of some large merchant company, you could kidnap the daughter of his associate, and force HIM to do it. The old abandoned shack east of solitude would be of some use again.

Edited November 28, 2011 by Miraboreasu

[HaikenEdge]

I suppose you're right; it just seems impractical, since part of the Dark Brotherhood's MO has been "Get in, get out, don't get caught". Either way, it's a moot point.

 

I think the best way to expand the Dark Brotherhood in a mod is for the player, as the head of the organization, to create opportunities where new brothers and sisters can be born, possibly through the situations you yourself mentioned, as a way to create new, named recruits to join the organization. From there, the Radiant quests given during Dark Brotherhood Forever could then be pawned off to the new recruits, who would then go out and do said quests, keeping most of the cash for themselves while putting some into the organization's coffers, even eventually rising in rank.

 

 

I really think, in order for any mod to make the Dark Brotherhood worthwhile while staying with what occurs during the Dark Brotherhood arc, at least half of it should focus on rebuilding the organization by rejuvenating it with fresh blood. I also think players should have the option to check each candidate's background, to see if the candidate has ties with another organization, lest the new recruit somehow damages the organization from within.

 

Also, being the Listener, I think the mod should include the option for the player to expand and/or contract the organization's role within Skyrim, creating new ties with different organizations as necessary, or cutting existing ones (I'm looking at Maven Black-Briar [Who I think actually doesn't have ties, if you invade her house and check her basement]) or Morgan Frey), possibly even going as far as attracting merchants the way the Thieves Guild does.

I agree, actually. I think making ties with the thieves guild should be a very important matter, and perhaps ties with the Mage's College would provide access to poisons, or useful scrolls, possibly with unique and quest-specific effects, like assuming someone's identity. Perhaps siding with the Companions would give your underlings access to very high quality weapons, or even stronger armor.

 

Perhaps when hiring specialists, or making said connections, you can make the contracts you do have very drastically different paths to how you fulfill them. Hiring new assassins could make for very potent joint-operations, in which you order another assassin with you to make preparations for you, or even the other way around. Maybe sometimes your job is less to pull the trigger, and more to pull the strings, but in a unique, and fun way.

 

Maybe for once, you get to play the Cheshire Cat, and lurk around, leading people and spinning webs.

This is of great interest to me; it reminds me of a conversation from the television series, "The Unit":

 

 

Character A: How do you kill a man that you can’t get to?

Character B: I don’t know, how?

Character A: Loosen the kill chain.

Character B: Come again?

Character A: Loosen the kill chain.

Character B: Find, fix, track and kill?

Character A: Yes, indeed.

Character B: But what you’re saying makes no sense; the goal is to tighten the kill chain.

Character A: No, the goal is to kill the target.

 

 

With that in mind, some of the possible jobs might not even have to be direct assassinations; instead, the job might be to locate a NPC who can kill a target the player couldn't normally reach, by setting that NPC up to want to kill the target on their own.

 

That aside, I don't see the Dark Brotherhood allying with the Companions, simply because the Companions believe in honor and direct combat; doesn't mean they can't come to an agreement with another blacksmith, though.

The brotherhood could threaten to reveal the "secret" nature of the Circle, and instead use that as blackmail. It certainly would hurt their standing among the people of Whiterun. I would imagine that the brotherhood is well in the business of finding secrets, as well as keeping them.

 

But yes, manipulation could work as well. Perhaps instead of killing the unreachable head of some large merchant company, you could kidnap the daughter of his associate, and force HIM to do it. The old abandoned shack east of solitude would be of some use again.

Kidnapping somebody's kid to blackmail them into doing something, while possible, seems less sensible than setting up the same person to think the unreachable head of the large merchant company wants to kill him and his daughter; in the case of the first, the mark feels like he is being forced to kill the target, while, in the second case, the mark feels like he needs to kill the target in order to survive, meaning he'll likely put more heart into it. I mean, it wouldn't necessarily work for a good person, but say it were two members of the Thieves Guild, or a rival organization made just for the mod.

[Miraboreasu]

I suppose you're right; it just seems impractical, since part of the Dark Brotherhood's MO has been "Get in, get out, don't get caught". Either way, it's a moot point.

 

I think the best way to expand the Dark Brotherhood in a mod is for the player, as the head of the organization, to create opportunities where new brothers and sisters can be born, possibly through the situations you yourself mentioned, as a way to create new, named recruits to join the organization. From there, the Radiant quests given during Dark Brotherhood Forever could then be pawned off to the new recruits, who would then go out and do said quests, keeping most of the cash for themselves while putting some into the organization's coffers, even eventually rising in rank.

 

 

I really think, in order for any mod to make the Dark Brotherhood worthwhile while staying with what occurs during the Dark Brotherhood arc, at least half of it should focus on rebuilding the organization by rejuvenating it with fresh blood. I also think players should have the option to check each candidate's background, to see if the candidate has ties with another organization, lest the new recruit somehow damages the organization from within.

 

Also, being the Listener, I think the mod should include the option for the player to expand and/or contract the organization's role within Skyrim, creating new ties with different organizations as necessary, or cutting existing ones (I'm looking at Maven Black-Briar [Who I think actually doesn't have ties, if you invade her house and check her basement]) or Morgan Frey), possibly even going as far as attracting merchants the way the Thieves Guild does.

I agree, actually. I think making ties with the thieves guild should be a very important matter, and perhaps ties with the Mage's College would provide access to poisons, or useful scrolls, possibly with unique and quest-specific effects, like assuming someone's identity. Perhaps siding with the Companions would give your underlings access to very high quality weapons, or even stronger armor.

 

Perhaps when hiring specialists, or making said connections, you can make the contracts you do have very drastically different paths to how you fulfill them. Hiring new assassins could make for very potent joint-operations, in which you order another assassin with you to make preparations for you, or even the other way around. Maybe sometimes your job is less to pull the trigger, and more to pull the strings, but in a unique, and fun way.

 

Maybe for once, you get to play the Cheshire Cat, and lurk around, leading people and spinning webs.

This is of great interest to me; it reminds me of a conversation from the television series, "The Unit":

 

 

Character A: How do you kill a man that you can’t get to?

Character B: I don’t know, how?

Character A: Loosen the kill chain.

Character B: Come again?

Character A: Loosen the kill chain.

Character B: Find, fix, track and kill?

Character A: Yes, indeed.

Character B: But what you’re saying makes no sense; the goal is to tighten the kill chain.

Character A: No, the goal is to kill the target.

 

 

With that in mind, some of the possible jobs might not even have to be direct assassinations; instead, the job might be to locate a NPC who can kill a target the player couldn't normally reach, by setting that NPC up to want to kill the target on their own.

 

That aside, I don't see the Dark Brotherhood allying with the Companions, simply because the Companions believe in honor and direct combat; doesn't mean they can't come to an agreement with another blacksmith, though.

The brotherhood could threaten to reveal the "secret" nature of the Circle, and instead use that as blackmail. It certainly would hurt their standing among the people of Whiterun. I would imagine that the brotherhood is well in the business of finding secrets, as well as keeping them.

 

But yes, manipulation could work as well. Perhaps instead of killing the unreachable head of some large merchant company, you could kidnap the daughter of his associate, and force HIM to do it. The old abandoned shack east of solitude would be of some use again.

Kidnapping somebody's kid to blackmail them into doing something, while possible, seems less sensible than setting up the same person to think the unreachable head of the large merchant company wants to kill him and his daughter; in the case of the first, the mark feels like he is being forced to kill the target, while, in the second case, the mark feels like he needs to kill the target in order to survive, meaning he'll likely put more heart into it. I mean, it wouldn't necessarily work for a good person, but say it were two members of the Thieves Guild, or a rival organization made just for the mod.

Maybe both choices are available, and you have to investigate the person's character before you make such a decision. One could result in failure, and you having to re-plan for a more roundabout way of dealing with the situation. Perhaps failing will, at the very least, alert you to the mark's location, forcing you to complete the contract manually (at increased difficulty).

 

Maybe when the mark foils his attempted assassination, he lets his guard down thinking it's all over, so this new situation becomes possible.

Edited November 28, 2011 by Miraboreasu

[Miraboreasu]

Oooo, had another idea. Maybe when you gain the thieves' guild's favor, some time down the line, you are given a high ranking member as your next mark. Simply killing him would end all ties the guild has to the brotherhood, and you lose all benefits and services granted to you. Manipulating the guild's politics, and making it look like an internal power struggle, however, would be a way of covering your tracks, and keeping the Thieve's Guild as loyal partners, despite a civil war breaking out among them. Edited November 28, 2011 by Miraboreasu

[HaikenEdge]

As you may know by reading my posts in other threads, I'm a believer in the reactivity of a game world to a player's actions; to this end, I have several proposals regarding this proposed Dark Brotherhood mod:

 

• 
   
  
• In following the discussion regarding expansion of the Dark Brotherhood's membership, there should be specialist NPC recruits who excel at certain tasks, say honeytrap operations, poisoning, undercover work, or sniping; when the player gives out assignments to these recruit candidates, choosing the right candidate for the job becomes important, else the recruit might be killed or captured. These specialists would be separate from the more generic recruits, and could possible be followers to the PC. Perhaps the PC even recruits a single, trustworthy candidate to become what would effectively be the PC's personal assistant, providing certain role-play oriented assistant, for example, telling the character to acquire a select item would send the character out into the world to locate and retrieve such an item.
   
  
• What happens when a PC's spouse discovers the PC's involvement with the Dark Brotherhood? More importantly, how does the spouse find out? In the case of the latter, I would think direct witness(es) to the crime would be enough for the rumors to start floating around, and multiple occasions where direct witness(es) survive might tip off the spouse. As for the reaction, I would imagine some spouses would embrace the PC's darker side (ie, Muiri), while others would be horrified and would want to turn the PC in to the authorities, in which case, the PC would need to eliminate the spouse to avoid prison time or the death sentence.
   
  
• We've discussed the possibility of a mole in the organization; what if the PC discovers the identity of said mole, who is either still with the guild, or is now living under a new alias in some form of witness protection? If the mole is still with the organization, the PC would need to eliminate the mole, then relocate the organization to a different location (which might be an excuse to move to a sanctuary with better ambiance) and possibly set up an ambush when the enemy attempts to penetrate the lair; on the other hand, if the mole is now in witness protection, the PC would need to get to and kill said mole to set an example for all betrayers. However, I think this should be reactive; let the player be given the option of choosing between several possible moles, and then let the player decide which to go after, and have the world react to whether the player killed the right one. In the case of killing a mole still within the organization, it could lead to an explanation of why the organization has a new quest giver.
   
  
• Furthermore, in keeping with the expansion theme, with the PC now at the helm of the organization, there's no reason why the organization's roles can't increase or change. While the Dark Brotherhood certainly would remain an association of assassins due to the influence of the Night Mother, there's no reason why the PC can't also develop the organization into an intelligence network and brokerage in order to avoid a repeat of the situation at the end of the Dark Brotherhood arc and to generate more income, or provide espionage services that don't necessarily fall within the realm of what the Thieves' Guild does, say, sabotage or extraction.
  

[Miraboreasu]

As you may know by reading my posts in other threads, I'm a believer in the reactivity of a game world to a player's actions; to this end, I have several proposals regarding this proposed Dark Brotherhood mod:

 

 

 

In following the discussion regarding expansion of the Dark Brotherhood's membership, there should be specialist NPC recruits who excel at certain tasks, say honeytrap operations, poisoning, undercover work, or sniping; when the player gives out assignments to these recruit candidates, choosing the right candidate for the job becomes important, else the recruit might be killed or captured. These specialists would be separate from the more generic recruits, and could possible be followers to the PC. Perhaps the PC even recruits a single, trustworthy candidate to become what would effectively be the PC's personal assistant, providing certain role-play oriented assistant, for example, telling the character to acquire a select item would send the character out into the world to locate and retrieve such an item.

I like the idea of finding these specialists roaming through the game world, and finding them could be completely optional (although Nazir would certainly give rumors about these people, and their possible locations periodically). Maybe a few are mandatory.

 

I like the idea of having multiple specialists too, though. Less on the side of companions (although one or two could be), and more on the side of completing the increasingly more difficult contracts that require at least some outside help than your own knife.

 

Also, Nazir as a coordinator would appear to single him out as being useful as an operative, but what of Babette and Cicero? Babette's skills as an infiltrator and handiwork with poisons would make her very, very useful.

 

What happens when a PC's spouse discovers the PC's involvement with the Dark Brotherhood? More importantly, how does the spouse find out? In the case of the latter, I would think direct witness(es) to the crime would be enough for the rumors to start floating around, and multiple occasions where direct witness(es) survive might tip off the spouse. As for the reaction, I would imagine some spouses would embrace the PC's darker side (ie, Muiri), while others would be horrified and would want to turn the PC in to the authorities, in which case, the PC would need to eliminate the spouse to avoid prison time or the death sentence.

Perhaps if the spouse is also a follower, you could initiate them into the brotherhood. If they are a merchant (like ysolda), they could benefit by helping the guild's coffers. For those who would be appalled at such a thing, I agree your situation is nice too. Perhaps the grounds on which certain spouses would draw the line would be quite unexpected, as well. Maybe a great warrior would still find it unacceptable, or a kindly merchant or bard opens up to it in an unforeseen manner (think Kira syndrome)

 

We've discussed the possibility of a mole in the organization; what if the PC discovers the identity of said mole, who is either still with the guild, or is now living under a new alias in some form of witness protection? If the mole is still with the organization, the PC would need to eliminate the mole, then relocate the organization to a different location (which might be an excuse to move to a sanctuary with better ambiance) and possibly set up an ambush when the enemy attempts to penetrate the lair; on the other hand, if the mole is now in witness protection, the PC would need to get to and kill said mole to set an example for all betrayers. However, I think this should be reactive; let the player be given the option of choosing between several possible moles, and then let the player decide which to go after, and have the world react to whether the player killed the right one. In the case of killing a mole still within the organization, it could lead to an explanation of why the organization has a new quest giver.

Wouldn't change a thing. I like it.

 

Furthermore, in keeping with the expansion theme, with the PC now at the helm of the organization, there's no reason why the organization's roles can't increase or change. While the Dark Brotherhood certainly would remain an association of assassins due to the influence of the Night Mother, there's no reason why the PC can't also develop the organization into an intelligence network and brokerage in order to avoid a repeat of the situation at the end of the Dark Brotherhood arc and to generate more income, or provide espionage services that don't necessarily fall within the realm of what the Thieves' Guild does, say, sabotage or extraction.

 

 

While the Night Mother demands blood on her contracts (remember Motierre in Oblivion?), I see no reason the Listeners cannot have their own agendas. Returning the DB to it's former glory is one thing, but expanding it further than it's ever been before? Befitting of a new kind of leader, and very befitting of Astrid's successor. Edited November 28, 2011 by Miraboreasu

[Jackal2233]

DB in Oblivion is MOST definitely the best, hell I still remember that quest "Whodidit" or something :laugh:

That was the most hilarious and entertaining quest EVER in the whole darn game!

 

None of the quests in Skyrim (Or Oblivion for that matter), matches up with the uniqueness and awesomeness of that one particular quest. Reminds me of Thief:Deadly Shadows... the cradle mission, hell that was a highlight of real spinechilling!

[Miraboreasu]

No more conversation eh? I thought there was a lot of good discussion going on here.

[Lachdonin]

DB in Oblivion is MOST definitely the best, hell I still remember that quest "Whodidit" or something :laugh:

That was the most hilarious and entertaining quest EVER in the whole darn game!

 

Personally, my favorite experience involving the Dark Brotherhood was in Morrowind; Trubunal, when i got to slaughter them like rats in the sewers beneath Mournhold. Considering the numbers i killed down there, i don't doubt that the Nerevarine features prominantly in their downfall...

 

Long live the Morag Tong, death to the upstart children of Sithis.