Schooling

[freddycashmercury]

You have obviously not done your research fully.

 

 

1) Very, very few people have the skills and knowledge necessary to give a proper general education. Even those of us who have high-level knowledge of specific subjects (engineering, math, physics, in my case) rarely have the same knowledge in all of the areas required. I could teach someone every form of math from basic addition to university-level calculus, but I know almost nothing about literature. And the problem only gets worse when you realize that knowing a subject is not the same as being able to teach it... go to any serious university classes, and you'll learn this far too well: there are many people who are brilliant in their fields, but who just suck at teaching that knowledge to others.

 

Okay, I kind of agree there. My mother, who teaches me, is an extremely intelligent lawyer. I have been gifted with both an excellent teacher and an (if I might say so myself) an above average intellect. I have, however, seen cases of homeschooling gone wrong. One, to be exact. It was because the parent was an alcoholic and got drunk instead of trying to teach her kids.

 

Oh yeah, and just to beat the dead horse a bit more, how many families have enough money that they can afford to have this brilliant, well-educated parent staying home teaching full-time?

 

Well, homeschooling itself is incredibly inexpensive. My mother spent around maybe $1000 total for my sister and I. This includes biology equipment and field trips.

 

 

2) Many people use homeschooling as an excuse to second-guess the experts on what is true, and what their children really need to learn. Similarly to point #1, most people simply do not have the knowledge to make an informed decision on this. And making the problem worse, many of them are proud of this fact. Consider something like the "debate" over creationism vs. evolution, in the scientific community (the experts who actually matter), there is no debate, evolution is as solid a theory as the theory that disease is caused by bacteria. In formal schools, the correct theory is taught, and schools are held accountable for any refusal to do so. But consider the general population, where there are plenty of people who refuse to accept this fact... if they homeschool their children, what is stopping them from giving their children a fundamentally flawed "theory" of creationism instead? Nothing, of course, and people do exactly that. Now skip forward a few years, when these children get out into the real world, and their lack of knowledge leaves them completely unqualified for any serious higher education.

 

Not everyone agrees that evolution is as solid as the "experts" say it is. I won't debate you on this, however, because this forum has banned religious discussions. Also, if your parents refuse to let you study alternate theories of creation, they're idiots. Plain and simple. I have studied evolution quite a bit myself, and have debated people on this topic before. Seriously, you'd have to be an idiot not to consider all the facts before commiting to any belief system. Also, even evolutionists homeschool. One of the forums I belong to is a homeschool debate forum. At least 10% of the members are atheists.

 

3) It's much harder to hold homeschooling parents accountable for the content and quality of their teaching. While standardized end of course tests suck, regardless of whether they are used in schools or by parents, at least in schools you have normal grading and supervision to help out with this. Compare this to homeschooling parents... how do you make sure the parents aren't biased in their grading and making it too easy to get high grades? Public schools are bad enough in this country, and produce students that are horribly unqualified for the real world, the last thing we want to do is add more opportunities for students to fall behind.

 

Read this and tell me again that parents are letting their children cheat. If the parents were easy on the kids, these scores would be much lower.

 

 

 

 

 

Homeschooling is not synonymous with Christianity. It is a good alternative option to public schools.

[Duskrider]

Not everyone agrees that evolution is as solid as the "experts" say it is.

 

 

So? Who cares what anyone besides the experts thinks. Their opinion matters about as much as my dog's opinion on the subject.

 

Of course everyone sees this point very clearly when it's a question of something besides science. If I said "not everyone believes what the 'experts' say about that 'murder is wrong and sends you to prison' theory, I'm going to teach my kids to kill people", you would expect me to be thrown in prison on criminal charges. If your doctor said "not everyone agrees that the theory of 'bacteria cause disease' is as solid as the 'experts' say it is" and refused to wash his hands before operating on you, you would demand he be thrown in court on malpractice charges, and into prison for reckless endangerment. Science is no different... the only people with a right to an opinion are the experts, the rest of you can just shut up and deal with it.

 

Also, if your parents refuse to let you study alternate theories of creation, they're idiots. Plain and simple.

 

Nice strawman. Is it really that hard to understand the difference between not teaching something as fact, and banning someone from studying it themselves? The issue is not parents allowing their children to hear about things I don't approve of, it's teaching those factually incorrect things as if they were true. Because you know, that's what school is actually about, teaching what is true, not some vague un-structured independent study.

 

Of course it really isn't an issue, because there aren't any alternate theories of creation. Maybe if you weren't homeschooled, you would have a better understanding of what a scientific theory is, the standards for an explanation becoming one, and why the name is inappropriate in this case.

 

I have studied evolution quite a bit myself, and have debated people on this topic before. Seriously, you'd have to be an idiot not to consider all the facts before commiting to any belief system. Also, even evolutionists homeschool. One of the forums I belong to is a homeschool debate forum. At least 10% of the members are atheists.

 

Nice strawman. You're completely missing the point here. My complaint is not just about evolution, evolution is just one convenient example of the problem I'm talking about. The issue is the lack of control over what is taught and the ability of parents to teach their children false information. Maybe you would understand a different example: communist parents (a completely non-religious ideology) have the ability to teach their children that communism is a wonderfully successful social system that solves all of the problems of modern society, and has worked perfectly in every country that has tried it. This is a problem.

 

 

And nice job slipping that insult in there. I'm glad you think I'm an idiot who hasn't considered the facts. Here's a hint for you: I have, and probably far more than you ever have.

 

 

Read this and tell me again that parents are letting their children cheat. If the parents were easy on the kids, these scores would be much lower.

 

Repeat after me: standardized tests suck. Standardized tests are essentially useless for judging real understanding of a subject, and useful only for making pretty graphs for over-paid government agencies to brag about. It doesn't matter if you go easy on children or not, standardized tests are such a joke that you can get away with pretty poor teaching and still have decent scores.

 

 

Homeschooling is not synonymous with Christianity. It is a good alternative option to public schools.

 

 

I never said it was. You're the one bringing in this strawman and trying to turn it into a religious debate (which is against the forum rules, as you probably know). All of my points apply equally well, no matter what the parents' religion is.

[freddycashmercury]

All right, we are at an impasse. We will probably never agree on this, and as you pointed out (although I had already pointed it out), religious debates are banned.

 

Just to clarify, when I said that not everyone agrees with the experts, I meant other experts disagree.

 

One quick question and then I'm done: Why are you so adamant that evolution be taught as fact? If you are right, believing evolution has no advantage. You can learn the science behind it without having to thrust your opinion on everyone. If, on the other hand, I am right, your soul is at risk.

 

That's as far as I'm going to go with this. We'll just have to agree to disagree on evolution or one of us will be banned.

[xenxander]

What was meant by "how many can afford to have a parrent homeschool", is not very many households can afford to have one parrent not work and be there for their child, while only one parrent works.

 

This can be done with above average income households, or households where both parrents work but make a respectable sum - enough so that one or the other can take time off of work more than once (or twice) a week and teach material.

 

So for those who can - hats off. For the mass majority, it's public school because there isn't a financial option for anything else.

 

And I won't even get into how "well behaved" private school children are. From second hand knowledge (having a friend who was private schooled until high school where i met him) there is far more cruelty in private schools - older kids are larger bullies to the younger kids, as in many of the private schools, age groups aren't really segragated and everything from 1st grade up through high school are basically under one roof (or one campus, in general). I don't agree with that.

 

Most people always look at the cost and say "if it cost more, it's better" and "you get what you pay for", but I did very well in public school and have done very well on college. So yes my opinion is bias in that I had public school my whole life and have been sucessful, but than again everyone's opinions will be bais based on what they believe.

 

So is one better than the other? I don't know, but I do know that I would prefer to see any children I might have in the future to go to public school. (though I really don't intend to have any children).

 

Edit: (to freddycashmercury and Duskrider)

you two are hijacking the thread - cease and disist please. Bring up your conversation to each other in PMs if you would. we are talking about schooling.

[Duskrider]

Just to clarify, when I said that not everyone agrees with the experts, I meant other experts disagree.

 

The experts do not disagree. Among actual biologists (as opposed to preachers with 'biology degrees' granted by un-accredited creationist mail-order diploma mills), there is virtually unanimous agreement that the Theory of Evolution is correct. There are disagreements about the small details of the theory, but well over 95% (I believe the exact number is over 99%, but I'll quote the conservative number) of them agree that the theory itself is true.

 

One quick question and then I'm done: Why are you so adamant that evolution be taught as fact?

 

Because it is fact. Gene frequencies in populations change over time. The evidence, both fossil and experimental, is un-arguable at the same level that the evidence for F=M*A is un-arguable. The Theory of Evolution is the currently accepted explanation for why these changes happen, and is as solid a theory as the theory that bacteria cause disease.

 

Seriously, this question is the same as asking "why are you so adamant that 2+2=4 be taught as fact?".

 

If you are right, believing evolution has no advantage. You can learn the science behind it without having to thrust your opinion on everyone.

 

And you are completely wrong, for two reasons:

 

1) It is impossible to understand modern biology without understanding the Theory of Evolution. This is "optional" only in the same sense that understanding basic physics or how your goverment works are "optional". You can survive without that understanding, but you are completely unqualified for any work in the field, and just generally ignorant. As a parent, what right do you have to decide that your child will not be able to get a career in biology, go to medical school, etc?

 

2) Lack of understanding of evolution does have practical consequences. Just as one example, every time you go to a hospital and get antibiotics, you are trusting that the scientific theory is correct. But let's make it optional... we'll give you a choice of drugs. You can have the one developed assuming evolution is "just a theory", or you can have the one developed assuming that evolution and its consequences of drug resistant bacteria are true. I'd bet a lot of money you go with the second option.

 

 

If, on the other hand, I am right, your soul is at risk.

 

No it is not. Evolution is a scientific theory, and is taught as a scientific theory. If it fails (and keep in mind, this is extremely unlikely), it fails as a scientific theory because of empirical evidence, not because of theology. If it fails, it will be replaced by an alternative scientific theory backed by empirical evidence, not theology. Your religion has nothing to do with it. In fact, plenty of people accept evolution without compromising their religious beliefs.

 

But theology is completely irrelevant here. The issue is homeschooling, and whether it can live up to the standards of traditional schools. Science, including biology and evolution, is a mandatory part of a child's education. This means teaching the accepted scientific theories, not whatever alternatives the parents feel like teaching. If a parent refuses to include evolution out of concern for their child's soul, my point is demonstrated quite nicely: that parent is not qualified to provide the education that we have decided children are entitled to.

 

Since there is no accountability for homeschoolers, this is a major issue.

 

That's as far as I'm going to go with this. We'll just have to agree to disagree on evolution or one of us will be banned.

 

 

No, we will not have to agree to disagree on evolution. You may accept the disagreement, but I do not. You are entirely wrong, and have no legitimate points to make. By making this concession, you admit that you have no factual evidence in support of your position, and can only preach at me (the action that is banned by forum rules). I, on the other hand, have nothing to fear from the forum rules, because my argument is not a religious one.

[freddycashmercury]

Sorry dude, but I consider evolution just as much of a religion as anything.

 

 

If you read my posts you will see that I never said the students should not be taught evolution, merely that they should not have it taught as the only valid theory. The only reason I don't want to debate this is because I am smart enough to pick my battles.

 

In any case, we are getting off topic. The questions is, Is homeschooling a valid option? Yes. Even if you think standardized tests suck, and I agree with you there, homeschoolers consistently do better in college than public schoolers.

[ninja_lord666]

Sorry dude, but I consider evolution just as much of a religion as anything.

Both scientists and priests would be deeply offended at that statement.

[freddycashmercury]

Ah, well I don't have any respect for priests. I am going to state this, not debate this: I don't agree with the modern chruch in many, many ways. One of these is priests/pastors.

 

As for scientists, well, I guess it depends on your definition of religion. I realize the majority of people would disagree with me, but evolution requires just as much faith as creation does.

[ninja_lord666]

As for scientists, well, I guess it depends on your definition of religion.

Dictionary definition:

a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, esp. when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.

Evolution does none of these things.

[freddycashmercury]

a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe,

 

 

By this definition, however, science itself is a religion. This part of the definition:

 

esp. when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.

 

is optional.