About Paarthurnax, the Blades and the Dragonborn

[Soresu]

I have done horrid things while playing this game.

 

I am a proud servant of Mehrune's Dagon, Molag Bal, Boethiah, ANY daedra lord I can find really. ANY.

 

I sacrificed my windhelm housecarl to Boethiah because I didn't like the way he talked to me.

 

I quicksave so I can fire breath any guard who talks smack.

 

To decide Paarthurnax deserves death because he worked for Alduin during a time when there was NO CHOICE BUT to work for Alduin, is to decide that I, the dragonborn, hero to the world and thane of ALL of skyrim, also deserves to die.

 

Esbern can lick my taint.

 

Your character gave me the shivers .. But at least it shows that Paarth is loved by all, both evil and good alike.

[lordandromeda]

I have done horrid things while playing this game.

 

I am a proud servant of Mehrune's Dagon, Molag Bal, Boethiah, ANY daedra lord I can find really. ANY.

 

I sacrificed my windhelm housecarl to Boethiah because I didn't like the way he talked to me.

 

I quicksave so I can fire breath any guard who talks smack.

 

To decide Paarthurnax deserves death because he worked for Alduin during a time when there was NO CHOICE BUT to work for Alduin, is to decide that I, the dragonborn, hero to the world and thane of ALL of skyrim, also deserves to die.

 

Esbern can lick my taint.

 

Your character gave me the shivers .. But at least it shows that Paarth is loved by all, both evil and good alike.

 

 

I take this as high praise indeed. Thank you <3

[ABrokenRadio]

I have done horrid things while playing this game.

 

I am a proud servant of Mehrune's Dagon, Molag Bal, Boethiah, ANY daedra lord I can find really. ANY.

 

I sacrificed my windhelm housecarl to Boethiah because I didn't like the way he talked to me.

 

I quicksave so I can fire breath any guard who talks smack.

 

To decide Paarthurnax deserves death because he worked for Alduin during a time when there was NO CHOICE BUT to work for Alduin, is to decide that I, the dragonborn, hero to the world and thane of ALL of skyrim, also deserves to die.

 

Esbern can lick my taint.

Ah we have similar characters i see. lol

I liked my follower, though he does need to learn some manners... and how to get the f*** out of my way, so i sacrificed the first person who would fallow me and felt no regret about it.

I murder whole towns for the fun of it, and the loot ... the shinny shinny loot!! (my character likes shinny things and hordes them).

Yet i was disgusted at the last remaining blades for there blind hate. I wanted to smack them around and remind them who they served.

[tsdobbi]

Try to look at it in some sort of real life context. Replace alduin with hitler coming back to life with a legion of undead zombie nazis to take over the world, and the main character is Jewish, and finds out this old German guy thats been helping him, was the Commander of a Nazi death camp, who was a convenient turn coat at the end of WW2. (I am well aware of the allies willingness to look past that to utilize former nazi war criminals in the cold war). I would think of the blades more like Mossad, they could care less what former nazi war criminals have become, they care what they were.

 

Im at this very point in the story, and until you find out he was an accomplice to Alduin, i was under the assumption he was never really with him, Now I find out he was responsible for many innocent deaths.

 

I mean I see where you guys are coming from too. I do at least wish there was an option to say something to the blades like "we'll permit him to live until he is no longer useful".

 

I try to see it in a context as above. I think Beth should have done a better job at maybe making Paarth not seem to be so much of a victim and a human collaborator. Because frankly aside from Alduin, they have really painted humans as having been more of the bad guys in relation to the dragons than the other way around, as you hear more about humans ruthlessly hunting them to extinction, imprisoning them etc than you do about dragons wreaking havoc on mankind.

 

I think maybe they should have had a vision with the elder scroll seeing Paarth frying villages slaughtering people. Because as it stands right now I can agree that Paarth seems to be too much of a sympathetic character, that Delphine saying he killed a few hundred people doesnt really bother me.

 

 

So I intend to side with the blades, the character im playing is an unwavering character of principal, and will not take Paarth "having no choice" but to serve Alduin for awhile as an excuse.

[xerberus333]

The guy above me has a good point.

 

Unfortunately, his analogy has only made me even more confused as to who I should side alongside. I actually joined neither the Stormcloaks nor the Imperial Legion because thinking about it just made my head hurt. Then more Black and White options like this come up. Anyway, I think it all boils down to a lack of concrete information, and a lack of story development on Bethesda's part.

 

You ask Delphine or Esbern why Paarth deserves to die, but they only give you vague details with some bigotry mixed in. So F you Delphine, I'm not getting myself mixed in with your misguided crap. But of course, fact stands that Paarth was evil. Yes, it was thousands of years ago and he turned good already. But would you still think the same if *you* were there thousands of years ago? Watching him burn your village and your family?

 

In any case, real life is also full of instances where there's a lack of concrete information. We just have to make difficult choices sometimes.

 

And no. I haven't killed Paarthurnax yet.

[BrettM]

Paarthurnax is not like some war criminal who switched to the winning side to save his own neck or turned good years afterward by reflecting on his past crimes. The Nazi analogy fails, hard, in this case.

 

Paarth managed to recognize his moral error at the very time he was committing his crimes and changed his ways right then and there. HE is the one who started the rebellion against Alduin, teaching Thu'um to men. There was nothing to stop him from staying on the path of atrocity except his own attainment of moral insight, with no outside help or encouragement from any other source of which we know. Good on you, Paarth! He deserves his chance to continue his atonement and bring his enlightenment to other dragons. (Any that I don't turn into a pile of bones first, of course.)

Edited February 20, 2012 by BrettM

[xerberus333]

Paarth managed to recognize his moral error at the very time he was committing his crimes and changed his ways right then and there.

 

 

If you have proof that he did, in fact, change his ways early on, instead of killing hundreds like the Blades say, then this definitely gives out a point to Paarth. All the books I've read and all the dialogue I've heard haven't really given me enough info to conclude that. Though I might've just forgotten it. I was also under the impression that *humans* and not Paarth started the rebellion... Can anyone enlighten me? I know he gave Thuum to men, but I'm pretty sure he was more of just the council guy. He himself said that the turncoat dragons were never trusted enough to be let inside the secret meetings. Now IMHO, I think that those three Nords at the mountaintop were more likely the ones who *started* the revolution after they got Thuum-ed by Paarth.

 

On the repentance part, I agree. He did spend ages repenting. And I think that he should've have earned his forgiveness by now. Also, both sides agree that Paarth saw the error of his ways and sought to redeem himself. The only thing that's really holding me back from allying with Paarth 100% is the whole "He killed hundreds of people back then," from the Blades.

 

What is this, really? Fact? Years and years of biased opinions towards dragons in general? Was it actually recorded that Paarthurnax killed hundreds upon hundreds of people, and he realized that was bad? Or was it rumors/propaganda spread by warriors in the battlefield, embellished to a point of exaggeration, as most rumors tend to be?

 

If it's fact, then that will really weigh the old dragon down. And I'm sure some Lawful Good characters will slay him, despite suffering a heavy conscience afterward.

 

Maybe a better analogy would be with Roggvir, that security guard in Solitude. Did he deserve that? Maybe, maybe not. But unlike Paarth, you know for a *fact* what it is he did. He says it himself. You're better inclined to side with or against him, because you're not missing any facts.

 

When you ask Paarth why he deserves to die, he doesn't really explain much beyond "the Blades are wise not to trust a Dragon."

[BrettM]

Paarth managed to recognize his moral error at the very time he was committing his crimes and changed his ways right then and there.

 

 

If you have proof that he did, in fact, change his ways early on, instead of killing hundreds like the Blades say, then this definitely gives out a point to Paarth. All the books I've read and all the dialogue I've heard haven't really given me enough info to conclude that. Though I might've just forgotten it. I was also under the impression that *humans* and not Paarth started the rebellion... Can anyone enlighten me? I know he gave Thuum to men, but I'm pretty sure he was more of just the council guy. He himself said that the turncoat dragons were never trusted enough to be let inside the secret meetings. Now IMHO, I think that those three Nords at the mountaintop were more likely the ones who *started* the revolution after they got Thuum-ed by Paarth.

I wasn't claiming that Paarth changed early on, just that he changed of his own volition. He may have killed hundreds first, but there was nothing stopping him from killing hundreds more except his own development of a conscience. To me, he deserves more moral credit for deciding not to continue the killing along with the other dragons than he would if he had helped completely exterminate mortal kind and then come to regret it after it was too late to do anything to atone for his crimes. His moral awakening led to actions that demonstrated his true commitment to reform.

 

Men were helpless against the dragons until Paarth changed his ways and gave them support. Paarth went against the interests of his own kind in teaching the Thu'um to humans, which is an act of rebellion that began the downfall of the dragons, so I would consider Paarth as having started it regardless of whether he actually fought alongside the humans or merely mentored them.

 

Paarth's crimes were very great, but he has spent thousands of years atoning for them and has plans to continue atoning by converting other dragons to a peaceful philosophy. There are two choices here: allow him to continue his atonement to the benefit of all mortal kinds or decorate the mountain top with his decaying carcass. If you want him to pay for his crimes, then which gives you the greater payment? All the Blades seem to want is petty vengeance for people they never knew who would have been dead and buried thousands of years ago in any case, whether killed by dragons or dying in bed at a ripe old age.

[imperistan]

Let's all just pretend that there's something wrong with dragon slayers sticking to their original purpose, of, you know, slaying dragons.

 

Everything else to do with it is just because of Beth not bothering to flesh out the Blades faction to any degree. If it wasn't for the plans for them being present as far back as Skyrim's announcement, I would honestly say that they were an afterthought rather than something that was actually planned out.

[ell46]

For what it's worth, I didn't kill him twice, basically because right or wrong what ever he did, good and bad he did THOUSANDS of years ago, if it was my parents or grandparents he torched that might be different and look at him... his wings are so tattered I found it hard to believe he managed to get air born, let alone take on Alduin.