Visperas Posted December 2, 2011 Share Posted December 2, 2011 First of all I want to say I'm enjoying Skyrim a lot but I believe that this new streamlined rpg trend has lost an essential rpg features that I'd love to see in the game. This essential feature is meaningful choice. If you want a choice to have meaning, there has to be consecuences to your choice and I think Skyrim has very little consecuences for the few true choices the player makes in the game. Let's see.In the character progression side, the player chooses skills but it has no limit at all: you can be a master smither, master alchemist and master enchanter all at once. In most RPGs choosing your skills means that you can specialize or be a jack of all trades, master of none. In skyrim, in time, you'll become the jack of all master trades. The goal of this system is to let players change their playstyle in the fly with zero problems. That is a good thing and a very streamlined feature but it diminishes the importance of chossing your skills.The faction system works more or less the same. The player can join the thieves guild where it's completely forbidden to kill and then go join the dark brotherhood with no consecuence at all. You can actually join every and all guilds without consecuence. The only minor exception is the civil war questline where you can join the stormcloaks or the empire but the consecuences are minor because the questline is really similar and there's no true consecuence in the world for your decision. You deliver the jagged crown to ulfric and then go wander in solitude like a boss.Most quests are completely linear and only a few of them offer a player a binary choice at the very end but again, the only consecuence for this joice is getting another weapon or not. There's no consecuence for siding with daedra or betraying friends. Same thing happens with dialogue, all of them are linear and there's no wrong option that leaves you out of the quest or something like that. This kind of design decisions are a trend in many many games (and cinema, televisión, etc...) out there because devs don't want players to feel frustrated or to be locked out of some content. This decisions mean that a wider audience will buy and enjoy your game but it also means that rpgs are not as free as they used to be. Of course you are free to wander the world in any direction you want but once you get somewhere, you only have one thing to do.Which modern game would you say that has meaningful choices?Also, I'd like to have a nice and flame/troll-free discussion here. Thanx. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amycus Posted December 2, 2011 Share Posted December 2, 2011 I largely agree with you that there is a lack of choice and consequences in the quests, but I have to disagree about being able to be a master of everything in skyrim, since you have a very limited number of perks to use on one character. I would also like to add that in this game, unlike in oblivion, the dark brotherhood and the thieves guild doesn't really contradict eachother. Heck, in one of the missions they specifically tell you that you are allowed to kill a certqain person if needed. There are also a few thief guild members who mentions that they have done a few jobs for the dark brotherhood before. So, I think they have made a lot of improvements in this area compared to oblivion, even though I still wish there would be much more of this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CasperTheLich Posted December 2, 2011 Share Posted December 2, 2011 i'd say i have to agree completely here. and i've tried to avoid becoming master smith, enchanter, alchemist, etc. for rp reasons. and mostly failed. it's just too tempting.i've managed to avoid most of the perks here. except smithing and enchanting. they're just too useful. and if you want enchantments you need to do it yourself (unless you’re lucky enough to find every armor, weapon, misc enchanted object you’re looking for), you can't hire a mage to do it for you, and pay for their knowledge & expertise. which i think is a mistake. where was I going with this? i guess i'll just leave it here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moredhel Posted December 2, 2011 Share Posted December 2, 2011 I agree with you! The thing that annoyed me the most in Oblivion was the fact that I could simply join the Mages Guild with my Orc Berserker and even become their boss without even casting so much as one bloody spell! It's a shame the same goes for Skyrim, but it's even more dumbed down now :( Way too easy to become da bawz! They should have stuck with the Morrowind way: you suck at magic? Then you cannot join or advance in ranks at the mages guild. Same counted for the fighters and the thieves, and that is how it should be. Period. But wait, that would be too difficult for today's type of gamer: "take me by the hand please! I know nothing more than COD or Fifa! This game sucks! It's too difficult,. boohoo!" /rant Oh, and another thing: I sided with the empire and killed Ulfric. Rikke told me I have the freedom to purge any stormcloak camps I might find on my way. Then why am I unable to kill their questgivers? I strode into a camp near Falkreath, dispatched the soldiers easily yet the boss guy just kneels for about 10 seconds and then gets up again. Unkillable rebels, awesome. :\ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Visperas Posted December 2, 2011 Author Share Posted December 2, 2011 I largely agree with you that there is a lack of choice and consequences in the quests, but I have to disagree about being able to be a master of everything in skyrim, since you have a very limited number of perks to use on one character. I would also like to add that in this game, unlike in oblivion, the dark brotherhood and the thieves guild doesn't really contradict eachother. Heck, in one of the missions they specifically tell you that you are allowed to kill a certqain person if needed. There are also a few thief guild members who mentions that they have done a few jobs for the dark brotherhood before. So, I think they have made a lot of improvements in this area compared to oblivion, even though I still wish there would be much more of this. Well, I wouldn't say that 81 perks is a very limited number on one character but nevertheless you can still have every skill at 100. Ok, maybe the thieves versus dark brotherhood example was not the best but you know what I ment. Also, companions tell you to be honorable and never use sneaking and there you go joining the thieves, etc... Also, there's the detail that Moredhel has explained. You can become the boss of Mages Guild without doing any spell besides the flame atronach that starts the whole thing. I haven't played much oblivion so I can't compare but this aspect of the game has disapointed me quite a bit. I'm happy to see other people agreeing with me and I would certanily love to play a modern game that takes this kind of thing into account. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sarnz Posted December 2, 2011 Share Posted December 2, 2011 No consequences?!?! I told Camilla that Sven wrote the letter saying it was from Faendal. Now every time I see Sven he says something mean to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Visperas Posted December 2, 2011 Author Share Posted December 2, 2011 No consequences?!?! I told Camilla that Sven wrote the letter saying it was from Faendal. Now every time I see Sven he says something mean to me. Actually, I thought that quest was one of the best despite being too short. There is choice (one or the other pretender), morality (you can side with liar or the shy one) and consecuence (a trainer follower no less).I'm also thinking about Fallout New Vegas: there the reputation system towards the factions had a lot of implications within the game and the main quest is tremendously branched, with many options, open and with 4 very different endings. Please do not spoil Skyrim endings sice I'm not there yet. I'd like to see what can Obsidian do with this new engine in Fallout and The Elder Scrolls. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moredhel Posted December 2, 2011 Share Posted December 2, 2011 Heh, I'm gonna ninja her out of town by neither helping Faendal, nor Sven. Just gonna burst in, ask her to marry me and we're off! Can't wait to see what those guys have to say about that! :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Visperas Posted December 2, 2011 Author Share Posted December 2, 2011 Heh, I'm gonna ninja her out of town by neither helping Faendal, nor Sven. Just gonna burst in, ask her to marry me and we're off! Can't wait to see what those guys have to say about that! :D The thing is they won't say a word but it would be nice if they did. Imagine an ambush by Faendal because you stole his love, that would be nice! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abaris Posted December 2, 2011 Share Posted December 2, 2011 No consequences?!?! I told Camilla that Sven wrote the letter saying it was from Faendal. Now every time I see Sven he says something mean to me. Small tidbits - they happen. Fetch a sword for someone and there's a friendly greeting everytime you run into them. But by and large there's nothing to show for your labors. Kill certain important persons and NPCs still go on about them, not even noticing they're dead. Be the leader of certain factions and your underlings still approach you as if you were the new stable hand. They even scold you for not carrying out their petty fetch quests. Quote: "You're much better suited for such a menial task". These are immersion killers and made me try to avoid the larger quests, since I don't want to face the absence of consequences in this game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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