All my characters feel the same

[Thoreai]

Sandbox games are like a big box of Lego. Some people can't make anything other than what the instructions say.

Way to miss the point. The game offers no real repercussions to choices the player makes. There's nothing the player can't do (except have both sides win the civil war by brokering a permanent peace) and that's what makes the game feel hollow. You're in charge of the Brotherhood of Assassins? Sweet, you can also run the Companions, The Mage's College, and help the Empire win the civil war after... well, after completing the Brotherhood line of quests. Nobody cares. You can be the Thane of all the cities... yet not the high King. You can wield more actual power than the High King of Skyrim and... it doesn't matter because you can't do anything with it.

 

It's not a sandbox game with real rules, it's a Mary Sue game when you are Teh Awesome Master of All and no choices you make, and no actions you take, really matter... because that would reduce your chances of feeling awesome. Or something. Being a "Sandbox Game" doesn't excuse the fact that the game doesn't treat you like a rational adult capable of making lasting decisions. I have my big boy pants on and I'd like to deal with the fact that I'm running the Mage's College and I don't really have time to run around as a neophyte Companion, or that I'm the head of the Brotherhood of Assassins and the Empire really isn't interested in my help with the civil war thing, seeing as how I killed... that one guy who was kinda important.

 

Honestly, the thing that made me laugh (and roll my eyes) the most was the "Trial" I did to become a full member of the Companions. I stealth-snipered my way through the mission and pretty much encountered only one spot of difficulty which required me to actually draw my sword. Upon return to Jorrvaskr, I was inducted with no issues, even after my chaperone Varkas had made multiple comments about his dislike for sneaking about and not killing stuff in fair combat. Yeah, that really made the whole thing feel epic... as I did exactly what he didn't like and then he talks me up to the other companions. Seriously? This is "Good Sandbox Gameplay^tm?" I should have been told "You're not really our type of warrior, but thanks for the help." That would have blown my socks off and felt EPIC.

 

So, to address you analogy, even Lego sets have a limit on pieces, and thus a limit on what you can build. Half the fun of building with Lego (or doing anything, really) is trying to work around the limitations, not being told "You don't have any limitations. Go nuts!" To look at it another way; which is more epic; a castle build without a limit on pieces, or a castle built around a limit on pieces. One require ingenuity and forethought. One requires that you just show up and everything is already there for you... no instructions required, but no real challenge either. I wonder which would be more interesting, more challenging, and more enjoyable?

Really good point you are doing there Seviche...i completely agree.

Its easier to just open all guilds to the player without any effort, then making new quests for a certain path you choosed...for me everything in skyrim screams "sorry we didnt had enough time, you know Todd said 11.11.11 and he is da baws" so they quickly put together the major guild quests.

Even an open world game where you can do what you want needs to have some structure.

[darthsloth74]

pavy: Yes but we should all know by now to take what Todd says with a pinch of salt especially when he says the game would be finished by 11.11.11, I ask is it really finished? I agree structure is necessary in any game however open ended. Mass Effect 2, Dragon Age a lot less freedom perhaps but at least in most conversations you had three options, plus you had a proper pure good or totally bad option to end the games. A bit to black and white but at least a definate structure there.

 

abaris: Yes you have to go to the mages college in the main quest. So my answer to that is lose the main quest. It was delayed or permanently removed by certain mods in Oblivion, so why not Skyrim. I don't want to be the Dragonborn every time I play the game.

[abaris]

 

abaris: Yes you have to go to the mages college in the main quest. So my answer to that is lose the main quest. It was delayed or permanently removed by certain mods in Oblivion, so why not Skyrim. I don't want to be the Dragonborn every time I play the game.

 

Yeah, why not?

 

In my opinion the major flaw of the game is the unresponsive NPC population. Just to give one example: I become Thane of Whiterun and upon leaving the hall the first guard I encounter says: "Hands to yourself sneak thief." Well, down the drain goes immersion and the illusion of having achieved something.

 

NPCs seem to judge you according to stats not according to fame or infamy. So have a high sneak skill and you're the sneak thief, have a high alchemy skill and they ask for their ale.

 

Another goodie in NPC reaction and immersion killing would be some random quest being handed out by one of my supposed underlings in a certain guild: "You're much better suited for such a menial task."

 

Now, getting rid of things like that would be a huge step in the right direction.

[Moredhel]

pavy: Yes but we should all know by now to take what Todd says with a pinch of salt especially when he says the game would be finished by 11.11.11, I ask is it really finished? I agree structure is necessary in any game however open ended. Mass Effect 2, Dragon Age a lot less freedom perhaps but at least in most conversations you had three options, plus you had a proper pure good or totally bad option to end the games. A bit to black and white but at least a definate structure there.

 

abaris: Yes you have to go to the mages college in the main quest. So my answer to that is lose the main quest. It was delayed or permanently removed by certain mods in Oblivion, so why not Skyrim. I don't want to be the Dragonborn every time I play the game.

Then just go and be a woodcutter in the wilds, my son!

[Thoreai]

pavy: Yes but we should all know by now to take what Todd says with a pinch of salt especially when he says the game would be finished by 11.11.11, I ask is it really finished? I agree structure is necessary in any game however open ended. Mass Effect 2, Dragon Age a lot less freedom perhaps but at least in most conversations you had three options, plus you had a proper pure good or totally bad option to end the games. A bit to black and white but at least a definate structure there.

 

abaris: Yes you have to go to the mages college in the main quest. So my answer to that is lose the main quest. It was delayed or permanently removed by certain mods in Oblivion, so why not Skyrim. I don't want to be the Dragonborn every time I play the game.

Yes i know, thats what i do when listening to his ramble...honestly i cant stop but feel, he is really destroying a game that could be awesome, with his way of thinking that players need to have everything handed to them...just let them pewpew.

[darthsloth74]

abaris: The thing is sometimes the reactions of people make perfect sense. As a warrior I'm walking around Solitude and some guard comments: "Ah steel plate thats a fine choice for a warrior", but then you get the same annoying response from certain NPC's all the time: "I work for Belethor at Belathor's goods and trade". So annoyingly dumb. I think the game should have some script to make sure NPC's don't repeat the same irritating remark. They say it once, then after that if they have no more lines they simply say hello or nothing.

 

Moredhel: If only you could be a woodcutter, farmer or innkeeper who did a little adventuring on the side. Woodcutting and mining just results in some boring animation. At least let me hit the ore or the wood and gather resources because it allows me to participate.

 

pavy: Don't think about Todd's prattle, I certainly don't. It will make you feel much better and be less stressful. Todd who? :laugh:

Edited December 8, 2011 by darthsloth74

[abaris]

The thing is sometimes the reactions of people make perfect sense. As a warrior I'm walking around Solitude and some guard comments: "Ah steel plate thats a fine choice for a warrior", but then you get the same annoying response from certain NPC's all the time: "I work for Belethor at Belathor's goods and trade". So annoyingly dumb. I think the game should have some script to make sure NPC's don't repeat the same irritating remark. They say it once, then after that if they have no more lines they simply say hello or nothing.

 

 

Sometimes they make perfect sense and are surprisingly funny or to the point. Thing is, one shouldn't be insulted when just being made Thane. That's why I believe, they're simply basing their comments on stats or outfit not from fame or infamy.

Edited December 8, 2011 by abaris

[azaltan]

Bethesta and role playing? lol.

[Thoreai]

pavy: Don't think about Todd's prattle, I certainly don't. It will make you feel much better and be less stressful. Todd who? :laugh:

Thanks, feeling much better now. :laugh:

[Brittainy]

The big question I would like to address is that given a lot of people feel that the immersion is a problem how do we solve it?

 

Do we rewrite all the quests with multiple options?

 

Do we prohibit joining the mages guild if you are in the companions/fighters guild?

 

Do we reintroduce class restrictions?

 

Obviously this all relies on the CK and some talented modders. If I thought it could be done I would support removal of all the voice dialogue in the game in favour of the Morrowind system of non voiced conversations especially if it meant more options to roleplay.

 

Yes

 

Not exactly - if you want to swap guilds you should have to grovel / beg / earn your way into a new one. Perhaps if you're good enough you can have a few memberships going at once, but if you plan to turn to the dark side and say go Dark Brotherhood you'd either have to keep it secret or get booted from the other guilds / respectable society.

 

Class restrictions is a tricky one. I think if you start out on a certain path and choose a class suited to a specific set of skills then at the very least it should be harder and slower to learn to do other things if you decide you want to go another way later on.

 

And it definitely has to go back to text-based dialogue. Voice-acted has infinitely too many limitations for an in-depth RPG.

 

More than anything, having greater dialogue options opens up the possibility of having far more consequences even for small actions and deeds. Getting a repetitive reaction from the same NPC over and over really kills the immersion.

 

It's a terrible example, but I'll have to use it for want of something better: Sims 2 - if your spouse catches you cheating they can stay pissed off at you until you grovel your way back into their affections.

 

If I want to run a riot in the town square and kill some NPCs, I don't want to just be arrested and have it forgotten. I want to be snubbed and have to get back in their good graces.

 

So many little things which can add to the overall atmosphere. But again, as long as things are voice-acted, we're either heroes or nobody's and whatever we do in-between that is ignored.

 

:happy: