LE Better Cities?

[AssyMcGee]

Agreed 100%. I am beginning to think Bethesda put this game out the way it was for this reason, to see what modders can do. At least Bethesda puts faith and trust into you guys. EA and Ubisoft are out to make you look like terrorists for sucks fake. I appreciate beyond words what you guys have done for my PC experience with Skyrim. It was one of the two main reasons I bought my first gaming rig last September, Skyrim and Arma 2. Neither side has disappointed yet thanks to modders. There will be city files soon thanks to this post, give them time.

 

Haha I'm not to sure Bethesda put this game out in this state just for us. I think they just didn't want to create more meshes then necessary for all the cities and villages. Probably a combination of laziness and a tight deadline. I just can't wait for the CK to come out to start working on mods. Every city I pass, every town I see, images of potential keep flooding my mind. If I don't do something soon I'll be overwhelmed and start forgetting what I want to do!

[amblingalong]

I don't know if we're at the point where we actually want to start planning/setting up a team, but I have a good deal of experience as an architect (real world) and would love to be involved. For a project this big, we'd need a fairly large team- the definitive Better Cities mod for Oblivion took at least seven modders. Some preliminary thoughts:

 

Making the cities interesting: It's not enough (IMO) to simply add new buildings and NPCs. The coolest spaces, in the real world and the game world, are those that are complex and play with verticality in interesting way. Interlocking bridges, underpasses, balconies overlooking a street far below- these are elements which can make small spaces feel much larger and more engaging. Some cities lend themselves more naturally to this than others- obviously, this is Markarth's whole deal- but there are a lot of opportunities for cool spaces in Solitude, Windhelm and Riften, too. Check out this piece of concept art for Windhelm; see the bridge from the tavern to an elevated door on the left-hand side? This element makes the whole area much more intricate and interesting, and it didn't make it into the final game! Similarly, check out this art from Riften; again, the layered spaces add a ton.

 

Some cities are going to be much harder than others. From easiest to hardest:

• Whiterun- There's already been a lot of good ideas here on this one. Personally, I think adding a second, lower wall further out would be best, though the scripting for the Civil War battle could be tricky.
  
• Riften- There's plenty of room to expand outside the walls, though in this case, I actually think this town is basically well designed. It's not meant to be a major seat of power, and it's so nicely done I hesitate to throw anything off. Obviously YMMV.
  
• Windhelm- There's a decent amount of room to expand in the area to the bottom left, facing the city from the fron as in the picture here. I also think the docks should be expanded, since they're the only area where there are a lot of Argonians. This is an area where verticality could really come into play; if you look at the large, thick structures, you could easily imagine a whole edifice of stone stairways carved into the walls of the city, with buildings jutting out over the water.
  
• Solitude- This is where stuff starts to get hard. Personally, I think there's a ton of potential in those walkways around the walls of the city. If any place in the world is going to be two-tiered, it should be Solitude, with such limited space. How about filling in the gaps between houses, and then adding another layer of rooftops, gardens, businesses and homes on top of the existing structures? Connect them all with a network of bridges and skyways and you have the potential for something truly beautiful.
  
• Markarth- My favorite city, and the hardest to expand. It's already so complex, it will be extraordinarily difficult to alter significantly. One possibility is to build up and into the cliff face here; basically, turn that area from rocky cliffs into stonework walls, and then link it all with the rest of city with a large bridge arching over the smelter area. Aligning everything will be awfully hard, though.
  

 

Planning:

 

I propose modding each city in the order above, which will basically let us get used to the tools before the hardest and most complex work. For each city, we could start from the outside- biggest stuff first- before getting incrementally more detailed.

 

1. Make top-down plots of new buildings' footprints using aerial maps pulled from the game (this is what I get paid to do IRL, so not a problem).

2. Draw horizontal-perspective sketches of what each new space will look like (this is only important in cities where the buildings are layered/interconnected, like Markarth; shouldn't be an issue in Whiterun). This is also something I can do quite easily.

3. Create the new buildings, trying to stay as close to the concept art as possible

4. Fill in props, flora, lightposts, etc.

5. Create the interiors

6. Populate with NPCs

7. Do a final passover for alignment, bugs, glitches, textures, details

 

After we do this for each city, we can go back at start thinking about sidequests, new voicework, etc.

 

Just my two cents: I hope this happens!

Edited January 16, 2012 by amblingalong

[Zinnorokkrah]

You guys are doing some really great stuff here! I came up with an identical concept for my own mod- which includes new quest-lines and a massive expansion on dragons, under the thread 'Expanded Dragons, Bigger Battles'. However, you're farther ahead than I am- I was waiting for the CK to build a team. Would you guys consider working with me? I've already got a ton of in-depth concepts waiting in the wings for every major city in Skyrim if you're interested. If I remember correctly there's a few of you who've offered support to this mod who can do 3D modelling. If not, too bad for me- I should have started looking for a team the moment I had a working concept :tongue:

[amblingalong]

You guys are doing some really great stuff here! I came up with an identical concept for my own mod- which includes new quest-lines and a massive expansion on dragons, under the thread 'Expanded Dragons, Bigger Battles'. However, you're farther ahead than I am- I was waiting for the CK to build a team. Would you guys consider working with me? I've already got a ton of in-depth concepts waiting in the wings for every major city in Skyrim if you're interested. If I remember correctly there's a few of you who've offered support to this mod who can do 3D modelling. If not, too bad for me- I should have started looking for a team the moment I had a working concept :tongue:

 

Yeah, I think the whole community is way better served by people getting together and releasing something great than everyone trying to release their own version, which will take forever and not be nearly as good. I'm good with modeling and design, though much less experienced with textures and scripting. Is Google Docs a good way to do this, or do people prefer a different set of collaboration software?

Edited January 16, 2012 by amblingalong

[Zinnorokkrah]

Google Docs sounds good to me. Any idea how to upload things to it? I have a script that could use a few more pass-overs. Have you seen my thread? It would be good to know if we're on the same page if I'm trying to explain something.

[amblingalong]

Google Docs sounds good to me. Any idea how to upload things to it? I have a script that could use a few more pass-overs. Have you seen my thread? It would be good to know if we're on the same page if I'm trying to explain something.

 

If you mean Better Dragons/Bigger battles, I thought your thread looked like an awesome mod. I didn't see a ton of stuff about city exansion, though- did I miss it?

 

Google Doc: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1cNzQuu_McOdv4pkxaTUIHruYj8KTG4HL1x_fF6sX2qI/edit?hl=en_US

[Zinnorokkrah]

I mainly focus on the dragons- was sort-of using that as a draw. In any case, I don't really mention city expansion- I instead advertised 'bigger cities' in the way of NPCs and a potential Forsworn takeover in Markarth. In any case, I prefer to take things one step at a time- though my brain usually doesn't work that way. There is a bit under post #13, but not a lot. I was saving that for expansion for once I was done fully realizing my 'dragon lords' concept.

[MajikMoshos]

amblingalong, I was wandering around Solidtude today taking a gander at each interior and comparing it to the exterior model. I've found lots of instances where a) the basic shape of the interior doesn't match up at all with the exterior building and b) lots of potential space is underutilised.

 

The Winking Skeever's a good example of the latter - it's a large building on the outside, four stories tall, and yet indoors it's only two. Additional space could provide more rooms where mercs or sailors stay while their ships moored at the port. With other buildings expanding their interiors would give more room for additional NPCs to live in, perhaps working for the shops underneath, or at the port.

 

Also, check out this concept art:

http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20111102202032/elderscrolls/images/7/74/Solitude_Landscape.jpg

 

It actually shows much of the front area to be built up - the area that is normall empty and consists soley of a guard tower and the stables. We could expand that, built around the stables and the guard tower, and perhaps move the location of Roggvir's execution down there so it's still the first sight you see.

 

You're right about Riften, it's got a stunning enough design as is, despite its small size. But if it is expanded, I'd love to see more canals running into the new section, with the Ratway expanded likewise, no longer a liner dungeon with a few named crazies, but a sprawling network of claustrophobic tunnels, flooded sections, and shady skooma dealers and addicts.

 

Here's a handy image from the elder scrolls wiki, created by Venerable a user who's creating maps by taking birds-eye snapshots, which you said would help us. He's only got whiterun and riften done right now, but it's a start:

http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120113214609/elderscrolls/images/thumb/a/aa/Riften_City_Plan.png/373px-Riften_City_Plan.png

 

We could expand the east a little, adding a few more buildings and breathing some life into the canals (old and new) with some locals, fishermen & a few conspicuous folk. the building marked 'h10' is Snow-shod manor, I believe we can move it around and reposition the whole structure without fear of breaking any quests, and then plot out the new canal from there. This canal can spread east, perhaps reaching a waterfall at some point or just going underground, a source that provides the canal. The other buildings are quest related, so I'd rather not mess with them. It might be a little tricky to make the canal branch, but hopefully it won't prove to be too much of a hassle.

 

Some mesh editing might be in order though...Actually, do we have anyone willing to create entireley new buildings? I believe the current buildings are single peices, so we may need to think up a way to create constructable buildings that we can put together in peices much like with the interiors. Perhaps by exporting meshes and then chopping them up, fixing the UVs and re-importing them as new kit-pieces? Scratch modeling is an alternative but much harder...

[amblingalong]

I actually really like that idea for Riften, though it'll be an intense project! Instead of just that one curving canal with a central 'island,' it would be very cool to have a whole network of such islands, connected on multiple levels (so bridges on top of bridges. Actually, a little bit like Vivec from Morrowmind!

 

I like that Solitude expansion too, and I think the concept art is better than what they actually built. My only concern is trying to put buildings in places where they won't get in the way of the battles from the Civil War storyline. That said, I support anything that makes the city more maze-like, with back-alleys and stairs leading down to passages below the street. In general, before we make the cities more sprawling, I hope to make them denser and more complex, if that makes sense.

 

Here are my proposals for Windhelm:

 

Also, I really want to add back in the frozen water mill from the concept art.

Edited January 17, 2012 by amblingalong

[MajikMoshos]

Digging the idea of a vertical expansion to windhelm, like what you're planning with the docks too!

 

The Frozen Water mill is a great concept, and it should've made the cut as Windhelm's landmark feature.