LE Better Cities?

[AssyMcGee]

Oh I agree that there's far to few of... well anything in the cities. But something like an AC or GTA styled city would be insane. They'd have to ramp up the whole game world to match the scale. It would probably take literal days to get from one city to another. Kinda like Daggerfall...

 

But I think another reason people feel like the cities are small is the fact that there's only houses for people and a few shops in each city. I was thinking about this the other day and how the cities of Oblivion seemed so huge compared to these, even though we were told we were getting larger cities. One thing I noticed was in Oblivion, let's take Chorral for example, you have two inns, a bookstore, a general store, a smithy, a Fighters Guild, Mages Guild, a collection of upper class houses, a Cathedral, a collection of middle class houses, and a slum. That's quite a few buildings. In Skyrim only the 4 main cities have chapels, there are no bookstores, no Fighters Guild or Mages Guild halls in any city and the distinct wealth based districts seem to be more integrated. At least in Riften and Solitude. In Riften everyone is poor and in Solitude there are huge manor houses on "The Street" (Because let's face it Solitude is one street and a castle) and across from them there is a rowhouse of 3 or 4 poorer houses. Strange that they'd be right next to one another.

[BCbrad]

This would be a great mod. I think the cities should be 4x larger than they are.

[MajikMoshos]

As long as we don't lose track of giving each city a distinct architecture, then this should work out fine. For instance, if we just plopped any old house models or shacks outside whiterun, it'd take away the feeling and immersion if we see these exact same buildings in Solitude. I don't wanna see meeko's shack in every city, it's bad enough we see the same Inn a hundred times. Stick to a basic plan of each city's architecture - the castle-like, cosmopolitan Solitude, dank gothic Morthal, ancient towering Markarth, Cold solid Windhelm, and the majestic simplicity of Whiterun. While I haven't encountered Riften, winterhold and Falkreath in game yet, I'd assume they too have a distinct flavour each we must adhere too. We take inspiration from the concept art and being sure to not just repeat the same problem posed by the Inns. I'm even willing to handle layout in the CK when it comes out and will try to start my own project if nobody else does so adequately.

 

For NPCs, I say we use simple voice files where they'll just say hello and be on their way, OR maybe record our own voices. Try to pull off Nordic accents, or plain imperial accents, or the sly Khajit drawl. It's nothing complicated, just simple acknowledgements in a number of moods. When you're a stranger they're all weary and talk little, and just like the vanilla NPCs their way of speaking to you will change based on your actions. Things like "Hey, you're the new Thane!" or "I heard you did so-and-so yada yada blah".

We should also record lines for when the player drops something on the street and the NPC retreives it, as well as lines for each NPC to bellow if they're under attack, caught you pickpocketing, or just came across a dragon skeleton. Yes, it's a lot of work, but I believe you need to show dedication in all areas for a mod to be truly great. Besides, you're not doing anything too complicated either. I'm sure we all have plenty of gamer friends if we start running out of vocal variety anyhow.

 

An example:

Nord Citizen A, typical middle class tired voice with a germanic or scandanavian twang

When dragonborn is a stranger:

"Nope, not interested"

"Mind your space, stranger"

"Don't you have some great adventure to go on?"

"Good Day Kinsman" (if dragonborn's a Nord)

"Buzz off, beast" (If Khajit/Argonian)

When dragonborn is naked:

"By the divines, do you have no decency?!"

"Hmmmm...not bad" - creepiness optional

When the dragonborn becomes thane

"You've done our community a great service, Kinsman/Elf/Beast/Friend"

"Hey Thane, why don't you come down to the *tavern name here*? We'll serenade the night in song and mead!"

When under attack:

"By the blade of Talos! We're getting slaughtered!"

"Keep the children at bay, I'll distract him!"

"No! Spare me, SPARE ME! I have a wife I don't love and kids I hate!"

"Nice kitty?" (when yeilding to a Khajit :P)

Coming across a dead Dragon

"Huh...that's interesting."

 

Then after that you just record some general stuff they might mumble to the player or another nameless NPC, as well as dialouge pointing out shops and dungeons to the player (simple as "don't go to Dragon Bridge overlook, heard there was a nasty forsworn camp up there" or "Arcadia sells some fine alechemy goods, she can even teach you her skills for a price". Maybe even some basic lines for when they order stuff from said merchants. I'd say have three or four sets of lines for each race (Three Nord males, three nord females, etc). That comes down to roughly thirty Voice Packs. One Voice actor could easily voice multiple NPC's anyhow.

I could lend my voice if the need arises, and I have previous experience to boot. If neccasary I could try pull off a voice for each race, or more if others have difficulty or aren't confident of their ability. I love voice acting and will be at it for hours, ad libbing most of the lines anyway. I can write dialouge too, amateur scriptwriting here, and could churn out a sizeable amount for others (or myself) to read off with some directing if neccasary.

 

Lastly, if the city project goes all well we can concentate on improving the villages. For one thing, let's give them distinctive inns. Riverwood's inn needn't change much, for obvious reasons, but the others should all be fresh new takes. Personally I wish to make that my first project once the CK comes out, so I'll concetrate purely on the villages and other locations that use the same copied building (Leaving the hall of the vigilant alone in case any modders or bethedsa has plans for them). If you guys start putting the project in motion then, I'll gladly offer my assitance.

[AssyMcGee]

Unique architecture (Or lack there of) has been my biggest gripe with the game since day one. I don't mind the fact that the small villages have the same thatched roof and stone huts, but the fact that the larger cities all look the same and no imagination was put into it bothers me. Winterhold especially. The lore of the city has so much there. The events of the great collapse could of lead to a lot of ruins and a really cool run down city to explore. Instead it's Riverwood on a cliff, covered in snow.

[cppcooper]

Indeed it feels like Bethesda mainly intended the game to be good for the main story concept and not so much about the "day-to-day" content. They probably had those very things in mind when they decided to make modding easier to do to your game; installing mods.

[MajikMoshos]

I'm actually starting to think we may need to add some misc quests and a few side quests for variety - this can come as the final stage of development, as an additional plugin.

 

Now in terms of improving the experience in each cities, I'm thinking deeper. The hardest city to change, in theory, would be Solitude. Part of it sits on that arching rock, and the castle is important to the civil war questline. We leave those two features alone, and work on expanding it north a bit, filling in empty spaces inside, and then putting a lower-class section outside the main wall, before giving it an outer wall and watchtowers looking over the coast. Expand its port into something massive, have the lower-class district centred on that. What, just one little warehouse? One warf? No, it should make sense that there'd be a sizale naval presense here. Of course Dawnstar's gonna be the big port city, but Solitude won't be without a decent port either.

 

Similarly, Windhelm's expansion should have a massive run down dock quarter. I remember hearing the carriage owner saying how all the argonians live on the docks, shut off from the city. I go down to the docks and there's...two argonians. No, the place should be bustling with Argonian workers, as well as all sorts of Elves and Khajit working hard shifts and few guards to watch over the trouble that brews there. Meanwhile, the grey quarter would be a distinctive section full of misery. Look at windhelm on the map, and you'll see it too has a shape going on - almost looking like an axe or a hammer. Thus, the city should be expanded on the northern and eastern sides, with the Palace of Kings and candlehearth hall remaining in the same place, mostly. Put more guards in the rich side, and less with the Dark elves, and you've got some fine segregation. Of course, a certain quest involving serial killing may need to be tweaked just a tad.

 

Markarth is a mining power. Most of their output comes from Cidhna mines, which during my 'visit' there seemed...suprisingly empty. As did the warrens, which only had SIX ROOMS. I expected something more, full of poor folk living in the dank ruins. True desperation. Only the luckiest even get an actual room. Children of all races beg for food (and yes, someone should make kids for the other races), folk lay dying on the cold stone and dirt. Maybe there's a nasty case of ataxia spreading about. You can go deeper and deeper into these halls of misery, finding signs of Forsworn activity with certain individuals. Maybe a series of misc quests, and a major sidequest, involving the poor folk. IMO, it'd be easier to expand the warrens first, since you have much more freedom with interior cells to not mess anything up. It also means you actually have to search for any leads to it's main quest that you find down here. Obviously, there'd be only a handful of guards, maybe none at all.

Outside in the city, we can line the cliffs surrounding the iconic tower with many buildings, maybe even create a few more water falls. Expand the Silver-bloods just a little, put a few watchtowers juting out of the cliffs that can watch for dragon attacks. These towers can also serve as perches during dragon attacks (I assume certain buildings are scripted as perching spots in the event of dragon attacks, allowing them to sit on a roof or cling to a tower, for instance). Plop some more market stalls stretch around the cliffs, give the merchants homes and family. Expand some Misc quests to take you to these higher spots, and maybe another temple to a divine, or a few worthy treasures hidden in the waterworks. A bad step can mean a nasty fall, which in turn makes a fight in Markarth all the more enjoyable.

 

I can envision Whiterun with more classical Nordic architechture, dark wood and white stone. It keeps a sort of...white & yellow colour theme to reflect the clothing of the guards, and the city's name. Take a look at Dragonsreach, and expand a similar style to each building. There's plenty of empty spots within whiterun for a start, and expanding the amount of farmsteads outside could cement its status as a trade hub - an agricultural superpower, and a strategic target for the Civil War. It's the first city we're meant to see and thus, we need to feel WOWED when we come out of the woods and see it standing proud. Put some civillians on horseback travelling between farms, bandits occasionally raiding the odd farmstead and running off with stolen sacks of food (or young ladies), and give each farmstead an obvious owner. I can't imagine Jarl Balgruuf being the type to force the poor into slums, so he'd probably have a program in place to ensure the poor get to work at the farms for food. The majority of the farms would be owned by the Battle-Borns and Grey-Manes. Have one member of each clan travel around their steads - Alfhild Battle-born, who already owns the one farm in vanilla, could be set to visit each of her farms, help out her workers and perhaps collect payment and food before mounting her horse and riding to the next one. No need to record new dialouge or put much scripting other than using her personal horse to travel about. Create a Grey-mane who'd do the same for their farms and give them some greeting dialouge, and maybe the option to sell some produce. Give them a Khajit worker for some diversity, living in one of the farm steads with his poor family. Yes, a Khajit that isn't a gypsy or a theif. Or compulsive liar.

 

For Morthal, I like your idea of a town on stilts, but I also think we should look to certain vampire films and their depictions of the typical murky, gothic town plauged by vampires. Combine the two ideas perhaps - swampy, all on noticable stilts, deeper swamp water and more effects going on with the citizens all depressed. It should remain as the smallest of the cities, barely a town, to keep that whole 'everyone knows eachother' thing it's got going on, with gossip about the current trouble with a certain house spreading like Chinese whispers. I'd say it should have a population of about fifty people, since most of the town deserted the place due to all the strange things going on. When the dragonborn finally make things right, people start to return to the town, slowly. NPCs in this town would be extra weary of strangers, or just plain depressed.

 

Riverwood meanwhile should be the only village that looks 'different' to all the other villages, asides from maybe Ivarstead. Keep the north-eastern side that takes you to whiterun the same, but the southern-ish side should where all the expansion takes place. The whole village should rest alongside the river, with warfs here and there and several loggers coming into town to work at the lumber mill. Maybe even expand the lumber mill into something larger, with two functional saws both working on a constant basis, and carts carrying logs leaving the settlement for Whiterun. You might encounter a cart broken down on the path or attacked by bandits, or dragons.

 

Anyway that's just a few suggestions. Well, a few big ones. I'm willing to jump aboard if the CK doesn't get delayed till after my final year in uni starts.

Edited January 11, 2012 by MajikMoshos

[PsxMeUP]

Those are some nice changes, MajikMoshos, and I think if Bethesda had all the time in the world they would have made the cities like that. But they had the 11.11.11 deadline to meet. It looks like it was their main goal - to meet that famous release date. :ermm:

[AssyMcGee]

Those are some great ideas MajikMoshos. Pretty much along the lines of how I feel about the game. This is something I'd love to take a crack at anyways. Atleast for the main cities. The smaller ones would need some sort of a team or something to tackle. I can't create new meshes or anything like that. I tried once and made half a pathetic box.

 

Also the idea of more quests would be great. This again is something I'd like to tackle if adding quests is easier then Oblivion, and if even if it isn't. Also people will have to deal with no voice acting. I think the game needs more quests pertaining to the towns. Like doing small tasks in each city. There were a few in each town I came to, but they were mostly be a delivery man. Some quests were you can work out a dispute between neighbors, or convince some wannabe thieves to either knock over the Solitude bank, or convince them to go home. Just something to make me feel better about putting points into speech. I've been so used to doing that in every other RPG as an easier way to solve a quest or to keep me from murdering an entire fort of people. But here it turns out I kill them no matter what.

[TotallyNotToastyFresh]

I have always had an idea, just an idea, but it might be more practical than a huge overhaul.

 

Basically, we all know that huge cities, even more than three times the size of Vanilla cities are just impractical as there's too much stuff and too many NPCs, for starters the framerate would take a huge hit and it would just seem bland without a huge amount of work. However, what I was thinking, was that in the CK you create extra districts that makes the city seem three times the size it was, yet make those districts inaccessible to the player. Similar to Dragon Age's Denerim. It would appear much more immersive and interesting, yet still be economical with the engine and easily moddable. The only real problem would be LOD meshes, which from what I hear are a hassle to make. But I think it's a worthy idea.

[MajikMoshos]

I'd prefer we avoid that Toasty, at least for starters. Maybe a plan B though. We're not talking about having hundreds of people in one street, just a few dozen. If anything, there should be several plugins related to population density. Low, medium, high. High would be where you'd see bustling cities, but again, there's not gonna be an insane amount of people. Check

out. 120 NPCs in a brawl, no hiccups. I'd assume this guy has a good rig, so the high density plugin would allow for truly bustling cities. Otherwise, people just go for the lower densities if their PC can't handle it, simple really.

 

Anyway like I said earlier I'm up for voicing male NPCs, especially for a few misc quests and I can put on a few different accents depending on who or what I voice. Quests are the last thing on the list anyway, so we just focus on the physical stuff first of all. Besides, I'm sure we can find others willing to lend their voices when the time comes.

 

EDIT: We could theoretically segregate each district in a city with a little wall if things prove too intesive, with the High-end option removing said walls, perhaps.

 

Those are some nice changes, MajikMoshos, and I think if Bethesda had all the time in the world they would have made the cities like that. But they had the 11.11.11 deadline to meet. It looks like it was their main goal - to meet that famous release date. :ermm:

 

Yep, for them a superstitious number was more important than polishing the damn game!

Edited January 11, 2012 by MajikMoshos