Being evil has no consequences

[Karasuman]

It's always been kind of a fault of ES games that there's no consistent tangible difference between being good or bad in terms of how the world reacts to your choices.

 

KOTOR handled this better than any other RPG I've seen. There were clear-cut, consistent advantages and consequences for being a royal bastard towards people, and likewise for being good. Entire parts of the game could close off to you permanently depending on which side of the moral coin you were on, thus your choices were pretty important.

 

That's not really a knock against Bethesda for not including a feature like that. ES games just have never had a deep-seeded moral system in them, but given the amount of other things the games do well, I overlook it. An involved moral system would be nice to have, but ES games are already big and complex as they are, and we can't always have everything.

Edited December 5, 2011 by Karasuman

[elvinkun]

 

KOTOR handled this better than any other RPG I've seen. There were clear-cut, consistent advantages and consequences for being a royal bastard towards people, and likewise for being good. Entire parts of the game could close off to you permanently depending on which side of the moral coin you were on, thus your choices were pretty important.

 

 

While I really loved KOTORs I'm rather glad nothing like this is in ES. The system was good but you had to always be only evil or only good or you lost a hell lot of power. I'm not sure if being forced to always choose one side or suffer harsh penalties is really RP.

What if I want to have power, but I do not want to kill random beggars, torture people for fun and enslave small villages? Well. Too bad.

 

It's the chaotic and lawfull evil issue here, they mixed it together. Killing and betraying without a second though to achieve goals and killing and betraying because, well, it's really fun and all ... There is a difference.

Edited December 5, 2011 by elvinkun

[Seviche]

ummm, what does mods gotta do with this? It should be in the game from the start not need mod to do it.... why does every time someone complains about something people just say mod this, mod that,

 

Probably because this is a mod site.

LOL! Nice reply.

 

Honestly, I was expecting to not be allowed back in civilized company after I finished the Brotherhood of Assassins main arc, yet nobody cared. Seriously. The penalty payment you have to make for crimes is a joke and the bloodhound-like behavior of the guards would be comical if it didn't break the stealth mechanic so completely. I had a guard chase me 1/2 way across the map after I did something "naughty" in Solitude. Seriously? Well, ok, seeing as how it's only 1K gold to get off with killing a member of royalty in public, I guess I can come along quietly. No harm, no foul, right?

 

It's almost like they took a page from Obsidian and their "Good and Evil is Subjective" playbook. Which I always hated. Or they were being lazy. Who knows.

 

As much as I enjoy Skyrim (which is a butt-ton), there's serious issues with some of the game/ story play. Serious "WTF?" moments abound. 'Ware the rocks kiddies, it's gonna get rough in places.

[xaliqen]

Honestly, I was expecting to not be allowed back in civilized company after I finished the Brotherhood of Assassins main arc, yet nobody cared. Seriously.

 

Yeah, I've fought for both the Empire and Stormcloaks with two different characters. It's yet another questline that has only minor cosmetic differences depending on the outcome (and quite a number of bugs/inconsistencies as well).

[abaris]

 

Yeah, I've fought for both the Empire and Stormcloaks with two different characters. It's yet another questline that has only minor cosmetic differences depending on the outcome (and quite a number of bugs/inconsistencies as well).

 

It's simply meaningless. That's why I only joined up once, with the legion. I don't need another dissapointment in blue to get the message, that I'm not the hero saving the day.

 

As far as the original topic of good vs evil goes, the Karma system from Fallout seems to be the best. And I still wonder why they haven't taken it. You could be good, evil or something in between. Its about fame or infamy and it would be a nice touch if the world would notice one or the other.

[Handofbane]

As far as the original topic of good vs evil goes, the Karma system from Fallout seems to be the best. And I still wonder why they haven't taken it. You could be good, evil or something in between. Its about fame or infamy and it would be a nice touch if the world would notice one or the other.

I would disagree slightly there, but mainly because the mechanics behind the Karma system didn't exactly make sense on how the people around you *knew* you were evil/good. Seriously, how would folks halfway across the world know you were a terrible evil being who stole every last wooden bowl from Riverwood and Whiterun at -1 Karma each, turning you into the Scourge of Skyrim? What worked better was the Reputation system from the original Fallout games, as well as New Vegas - which made a bit more sense as each town would judge you based on how you acted within their own borders, whether you helped many people or were rude, abusive and violent toward the citizens. The separate bounties within Holds gets partway there, but you do not see any real sign beyond an occasional rare guard remark that you have been helping the locals (even then I have only seen it in Whiterun, not other cities). Of course it would be more fun if many of the quests had multiple solutions available, including more moral choices, but that is not something we are likely to see anytime soon.

[Karasuman]

 

While I really loved KOTORs I'm rather glad nothing like this is in ES. The system was good but you had to always be only evil or only good or you lost a hell lot of power. I'm not sure if being forced to always choose one side or suffer harsh penalties is really RP.

What if I want to have power, but I do not want to kill random beggars, torture people for fun and enslave small villages? Well. Too bad.

 

 

 

That is a very good point, though I am not sure that's a fault of the game so much as it is a restriction of its subject matter. In Star Wars, there were a few neutral characters, but the most powerful characters, with very few exceptions, were those that were either very far to the side of good (Yoda, Luke) or very far to the side of evil (Palpetine, Vader). The most powerful Sith were the ones that did exactly those things you mentioned that perhaps you'd rather not do, i.e. killing random people, torturing, etc.

 

More on topic, I agree with you in that I'm kind of glad there isn't an overly-deep set of moral guidelines in the ES games. You're not overly-punished in some manner for choosing to be one way or the other.

[elvinkun]

 

While I really loved KOTORs I'm rather glad nothing like this is in ES. The system was good but you had to always be only evil or only good or you lost a hell lot of power. I'm not sure if being forced to always choose one side or suffer harsh penalties is really RP.

What if I want to have power, but I do not want to kill random beggars, torture people for fun and enslave small villages? Well. Too bad.

 

 

 

That is a very good point, though I am not sure that's a fault of the game so much as it is a restriction of its subject matter. In Star Wars, there were a few neutral characters, but the most powerful characters, with very few exceptions, were those that were either very far to the side of good (Yoda, Luke) or very far to the side of evil (Palpetine, Vader). The most powerful Sith were the ones that did exactly those things you mentioned that perhaps you'd rather not do, i.e. killing random people, torturing, etc.

 

More on topic, I agree with you in that I'm kind of glad there isn't an overly-deep set of moral guidelines in the ES games. You're not overly-punished in some manner for choosing to be one way or the other.

Well, I know, The Force is directly changing depending on ones actions, but I think they overdid it a bit. You had to be either pure angel or devil. You did one good deed as and evil character and you were basically screwed. In SW, even the worst of the worst had bright moments and haven't lost the Force bacause of it.

 

But I admit that Skyrim is a bit too openminded. Maybe there should be some kind of consequence when you slit throt of noble bride on her wedding in the capital. or when you kill 20 people. You just pay 1000 gold - per and noone minds at all. You can even stadck the bodies in the middle of town and dance around them. You paid the fine. It's a-OK. :D

 

There are, of course, other extremes. Like being executed on the spot for killing a chicken.

Edited December 5, 2011 by elvinkun

[abaris]

 

But I admit that Skyrim is a bit too openminded. Maybe there should be some kind of consequence when you slit throt of noble bride on her wedding in the capital. or when you kill 20 people. You just pay 1000 gold - per and noone minds at all. You can even stadck the bodies in the middle of town and dance around them. You paid the fine. It's a-OK. :D

 

There are, of course, other extremes. Like being executed on the spot for killing a chicken.

 

This. People, when they assume you're Brotherhood, should be cautious. If you're a suspected murderer, even if there are no witnesses, people should mind you. And if you're the Thane of some godforsaken village, guards shouldn't give you snide remarks.

[darthsloth74]

 

But I admit that Skyrim is a bit too openminded. Maybe there should be some kind of consequence when you slit throt of noble bride on her wedding in the capital. or when you kill 20 people. You just pay 1000 gold - per and noone minds at all. You can even stadck the bodies in the middle of town and dance around them. You paid the fine. It's a-OK. :D

 

There are, of course, other extremes. Like being executed on the spot for killing a chicken.

 

This. People, when they assume you're Brotherhood, should be cautious. If you're a suspected murderer, even if there are no witnesses, people should mind you. And if you're the Thane of some godforsaken village, guards shouldn't give you snide remarks.

 

This is very true even though the Dark Brotherhood are a mere shadow of their once powerful selves, the whole organisation is clouded in mystery and secrecy, look at how you are recruited as an example. That everyone is privy to your membership in such a group is totally ludicrous and destroys a great deal of the evil and terror of the Brotherhood.

 

I know we have talked about Karma but I don't think thats really the answer since I personally hated the audio cue every time I stole a stimpak from somebody's house in Fallout 3. How did they know? Is stealing to survive really a crime? No what we really need are more dialogue options to roleplay good or evil characters with more definement. A serious task for any modder since it affects so much.

 

For me The WItcher 2 strikes the right balance with its themes of doing evil can lead to good and that doing the right thing can sometimes cause evil to flourish. Unfortunately such a system would be a real challenge to adapt to Skyrim's very large game world.

Edited December 5, 2011 by darthsloth74