Whats with simplified leveling system?

[Singulair7y]

Let me start by saying Skyrim is an good game and i do like it.It has nice graphics good combat great story and there's lots to see and do.The game is so close to perfection but it just feels like there's something missing.There's so many things that contribute to this that i cant name them all but the removal of attributes is one of the major things that does this.Bethesda say that they were just a way of increasing health magika and stamina but they were so much more.With out them the game is is simplified and each character feels the same there not specialized in anything every character can easily learn any skill now.

 

Also the lack of unique items/weapons does this as well.It just feels like all the weapons are the same you know what your getting when you pick one up not like Morrowind and less so Oblivion where there's so many spells weapons and items i'm overwhelmed by them.The perks are a nice addition but cant make up for the removal of attributes.And there's many other small problems like regenerating health/No location damage no hardcore mode (i didn't expect this anyway) and the game is to bright.Without the darkness night time looks bad dungeons aren't scary and torches are useless.

 

Even things like being a vampire suck now.The pro's and con's have been reduced vampires can go in sunlight now just there health doesn't regen.Whats the point of being a vampire in Skyrim when all you get is a couple of Average spells and a set of cool eyes.In Oblivion my vampire mage has 148 willpower and i'm sure it would be possible to get it even higher.When i play Skyrim i get bored real quick i spend most my time taking screenshots.It just doesn't fell like my character is progressing there's nothing to keep me hooked.I brought Morrowind a couple of days after Skyrim was released and i already clocked up more time on that than Skyrim.I haven't played it in about 8 years and i thought it wouldn't like it much now but i love it more than ever brings back so many memories the best of the elder scrolls.

 

I loved Morrowind i loved Oblivion i loved Fallout 3 but Skyrim is the first time bethesda have disappointed me.Like i said it is a good game one of the best this year but this seams to be what all the game companies are doing now simplifying there games.Its ok to make a game more accessible just not when your sacrificing gameplay/depth.One recent game that does this is deus ex hm which is Awesome by the way but in my opinion not as deep or as enjoyable as the original.Guess i just have to wait for some mods to make Skyrim what it should have been.

 

Sorry for the long post and bad punctuation i just had to have my say.

Edited December 5, 2011 by Singulair7y

[elvinkun]

One word. Paragraphs.

Makes it way more pleasant to read.

 

Either way, I think that theit point was to make the character development really simple, to "get closer to the masses".

But yes, they did it in a bit sad way that will as well make many people angry. Deus Ex 3 isn't deep or complex as Deus Ex 1, also simplier in many ways, but they did it in a way that will please both veterans and new players. Bethesha did it in a way that it will piss off any veteran or person loving deep RPG elements, while it will appeal to some of the simplier console gamers.

Edited December 5, 2011 by elvinkun

[hymhym]

You really should edit your post and add some paragraphs.

 

As to the content or your post: Yes, that's the way it is. Some like it, others hate it and most just don't care about it. From a modders point of view, it's annoying, for it makes modding harder - harder than it needs to be. Losing all those stats and stuff means we have to create our own variables on which to base our mechanics.

 

Not saying it's impossible, but having a general set of stats would sure have made things a lot easier. Having the broken system from Oblivion would have been better than not having it at all, for at least a broken system can be fixed. But Bethesda's philosophy on fixing things is cutting stuff out.

 

Rest assured, that you are not alone with these feelings. There are literally dozens of such threads on this forum alone. All we can do now, is to wait for the CK, and see how much of such features we can re-implement ourselves.

[Shantih]

I really like what Bethesda has done with the levelling system and I'm a veteran pen and paper roleplayer and I've been playing CRPGs since the 90s. As an RPer I'm as hardcore as they get and I like having rule books that are thicker than most phone books but I know that rules are meant to help people playing a role and not stand in their way.

 

The made for console argument is definitely an oversimplification. It may be true on some accounts (console ports, textures, etc) but it's not the whole story.

 

I had misgivings before playing the game because I felt that getting rid of stats wasn't the best move but I've changed my mind after actually playing the game.

 

The changes Bethesda made to the levelling system with Skyrim makes sense from a designer's point of view. They took away things that weren't necessary and these changes allow players to focus on their characters instead of focusing on things that have nothing to do with roleplaying (i.e. powergaming and number crunching in order to get an optimized or at least playable character). For the record if the levelling system was so great in Oblivion I don't know why there are so many mods to change some its features (like the +5 thing for instance).

 

I can definitely understand people complaining that there are no classes in Skyrim but I'd like to point out that classes in Morrowind or Oblivion didn't make such a huge difference. They only mattered at the very beginning of the game or for levelling purposes. Again the main skills feature was flawed because it meant that your character was better off with a class that listed skills that you'd never use as main skills in order to control when your character would level up and that is a perfect example of the sort of nonsense you had to cope with in order to maximize your character.

 

As far as pen and paper RPGs are concerned, it doesn't matter that players don't know the intricacies of the ruleset or that they don't have an exhaustive knowledge of game mechanics, what matters is that the game master (or dungeon master) knows all that stuff. As a CRPG player it can be nice to know what the game does and how you can use the system to make a build that will be effective and match your playing style. Skyrim is more about the playing style thing than planning out a build and spending hours pondering over which stat to increase first and as such it is a less of a hassle.

 

I think that people are complaining for the wrong reasons and potentially the wrong games. Compared to Oblivion the changes introduced in Skyrim help with a more flowing and smooth gameplay experience but I would point out that compared to Fallout 1 and 2 the changes introduced in Fallout 3 (and FNV) are at odds with what the SPECIAL system meant. I don't want to hijack the thread but in the original Fallout you had to specialize because your character couldn't be good at everything and that is simply not the case in Fallout 3. In that respect Fallout 3 is more like Oblivion than the original Fallout. I would go so far as saying that while stats are crucial in the original Fallout they are becoming less and less relevant in Fallout 3 (and FNV) because they no longer make much of a difference. In FNV you don't need to max out a stat to get the most of the game. In fact six out of ten is often almost as good as a much higher number. In Fallout 3 you still needed to max out Intelligence for skill points but this is not such a necessity with FNV (especially with the higher level cap).

 

My point is that I can see where people are coming from when they complain about stats but I think that you have to consider the whole picture and not just Skyrim.

 

Going back to my example there is no denying that stats are of paramount importance in the original Fallout (a third person, turn based isometric game) but the same stats are much less relevant in Fallout 3 and Fallout New Vegas (real time, player skill matters more than stats -and that applies to Skyrim and Oblivion).

 

So in the end it's not about Skyrim itself but about the way gaming has evolved (and consoles are partly responsible for that). It doesn't help that controls for Skyrim have been designed with a gamepad in mind. The problem probably goes deeper than that. Whether we like it or not games are different nowadays and different doesn't mean better (or worse). I for one miss some of the features from the old games and in that respect FNV is a mixed blessing (traits are back but stats are becoming less relevant so much so that I can see how a revamped trait system could possibly be used to replace stats rather effectively) but I also recognize that there is an evolution and that character builds are no longer as important as they once were. Whether you see this as a good thing or a bad thing depends on your personal bias.

 

Some games have many stats but game mechanics are so straightforward that there is no room for more than a few different builds. Take Dragon Age Origins for instance, it may look like stats are really important but on a closer look it should be obvious that the lack of variety and the limited number of classes mean that only a few things will set two characters apart. Neverwinter Nights 1 and 2 take stats more seriously but in the end what matters is what you make of these systems and Skyrim is no exception.

 

What I've been trying to say is that if the game is indeed "consolized" (focusing on real time action and first person view) then this is something that happened long before Skyrim.

Edited December 5, 2011 by Shantih

[Singulair7y]

@ shanith

 

Im surprised that a rpg veteren would like the new leveling system but everyone has there opinion.Im not a hardcore rpg player but this wasn't what i was expecting from a bethesda game.Sure they need to be able to evolve there games and make changes but i think they went about it the wrong way.With the new leveling system it changes the feel of the game its more like fable now.I loved planing my characters out working out which skills/attributes i would train and there's not many unique weapons/items.As for fallout 3 i don't compare the new ones to the old because i expected bethesda to make fallout there way and i wasn't a fan of the old ones so i didn't play them much but i did play them i just wasn't into rpg's back then.But im sure there would be fallout fans who weren't happy with fallout 3.But these things happen and im just voicing my concerns because if we don't say anything bethesda wont change it.

[Thoreai]

There are no vampires in TES games.

[Shantih]

@pavy: there are vampires in these games.

 

@ shanith

 

Im surprised that a rpg veteren would like the new leveling system but everyone has there opinion.Im not a hardcore rpg player but this wasn't what i was expecting from a bethesda game.Sure they need to be able to evolve there games and make changes but i think they went about it the wrong way.With the new leveling system it changes the feel of the game its more like fable now.I loved planing my characters out working out which skills/attributes i would train and there's not many unique weapons/items.As for fallout 3 i don't compare the new ones to the old because i expected bethesda to make fallout there way and i wasn't a fan of the old ones so i didn't play them much but i did play them i just wasn't into rpg's back then.But im sure there would be fallout fans who weren't happy with fallout 3.But these things happen and im just voicing my concerns because if we don't say anything bethesda wont change it.

 

Don't get me wrong, I would love a really complex old school CRPG but such a game would have to be turn based otherwise it would still be about how fast you (the player) can move your mouse around and not about the character.

 

Taking into account that Bethesda titles are real time games and that the player's skill with the mouse and keyboard or gamepad is usually much more important than the character I really think that the changes to the levelling system make sense.

 

I get what you're saying but Skyrim is definitely not as shallow as Fable.

 

NWN was a turn based game and it didn't require any skill on the player's part. You had to think about things and plan your character actions but your accuracy with the mouse didn't enter the equation. Dragon Age Origins doesn't rely on the player's dexterity either so your character's stats matter more but unfortunately that doesn't mean that the game offers more variety when it comes to making different builds.

Edited December 5, 2011 by Shantih

[Singulair7y]

The thing is bethesda had a good mix of twitch gameplay and stats.Thats what they were knowen for it's the way they made there games for years why change it now?I never heard anyone complain that oblivion didn't have health regen who even asked for that.

[Thoreai]

@pavy: there are vampires in these games.

 

@ shanith

 

Im surprised that a rpg veteren would like the new leveling system but everyone has there opinion.Im not a hardcore rpg player but this wasn't what i was expecting from a bethesda game.Sure they need to be able to evolve there games and make changes but i think they went about it the wrong way.With the new leveling system it changes the feel of the game its more like fable now.I loved planing my characters out working out which skills/attributes i would train and there's not many unique weapons/items.As for fallout 3 i don't compare the new ones to the old because i expected bethesda to make fallout there way and i wasn't a fan of the old ones so i didn't play them much but i did play them i just wasn't into rpg's back then.But im sure there would be fallout fans who weren't happy with fallout 3.But these things happen and im just voicing my concerns because if we don't say anything bethesda wont change it.

 

Don't get me wrong, I would love a really complex old school CRPG but such a game would have to be turn based otherwise it would still be about how fast you (the player) can move your mouse around and not about the character.

 

Taking into account that Bethesda titles are real time games and that the player's skill with the mouse and keyboard or gamepad is usually much more important than the character I really think that the changes to the levelling system make sense.

 

I get what you're saying but Skyrim is definitely not as shallow as Fable.

 

NWN was a turn based game and it didn't require any skill on the player's part. You had to think about things and plan your character actions but your accuracy with the mouse didn't enter the equation. Dragon Age Origins doesn't rely on the player's dexterity either so your character's stats matter more but unfortunately that doesn't mean that the game offers more variety when it comes to making different builds.

That was sarcasm :)

[Shantih]

The thing is bethesda had a good mix of twitch gameplay and stats.Thats what they were knowen for it's the way they made there games for years why change it now?I never heard anyone complain that oblivion didn't have health regen who even asked for that.

 

The idea of what makes a "good mix" is entirely subjective.

 

As far as I'm concerned unmodded Oblivion is incredibly flawed when it comes to levelling.

 

Also I never liked games in which you start with a puny character (statwise) and end up with a character who is godlike. Fallout 3 and FNV allow room for improvement but if you start with a character who is not physically strong you are not likely to end up playing the Hulk.

 

Getting a stat to 100 in Oblivion doesn't translate as a better roleplaying experience for me but I can understand other players can find that appealling. What I don't like is when people start saying that maxing stats out is what RPGs are all about.

 

That was sarcasm :)

 

I wondered. It's hard to get that without a smiley. :happy: