Anyone for a trip to mars?

[devinpatterson]

I agree, evil for evil's sake is... trite.

 

For the morlocks? I rather like the idea of semi intelligent ferals.

 

Also, 100 people is a bit small, even for a Martian research facility... Devin, I think that the tunnels offer a perfect, pre-made vault of sorts; most of the humans could be down there.

 

If you look at all the dlc's you see that dead money, lonesome road and old world blues each probably had less then a dozen real/speaking characters. Honest hearts had a lot of tribals, but I doubt there was even a 100 speaking characters, I'd guess probably half that and most of those were your typical npc one liners you'd find in the vanilla game.

 

Re: the tunnels it's not really about shelter per se, but about the 02, water, food etc.

 

Besides, you can't have a war without people to fight in it...

Rather than one big city, though, I see two large settlements and a lot of survivor conclaves:

 

I think what you have there sounds like it would be better suited earthside between two communities. Don't get me wrong I think it's a good plot line and would make a good mod. But it could just as easily be one that you'd follow in the Mojave.

 

What Kibblesticks is describing sounds like it would fit better because it's an extension of the vault program (they dropped 600 bil on ones on earth, I could see them dropping 600ish bil for one up here), so there is precedent. And it's isolated due to the early activities (monorail) and current social/command structure. So it leaves a lot of the base as I envisioned it.

 

As far as war, I'm not really seeing that per se. I mean a war by the military against the AI to go home maybe. But actual wars amongst two large communities sounds like it would essentially be suicide for both. I'd really prefer the spotlight to be on teh base itself as opposed to two large factions warring.

 

 

An organic situation like that, IMO would really give a dynamic, human element, and really add a good vibe to the mod as a whole.

 

Sure I can understand what your going for there, but what your describing sounds a lot like the wasteland earthside. For example read what you'v typed assuming your making a mod on earth and you'd see they fit in perfectly. And I want to stress I like the story, I just believe it would be better suited on earth. I'd like to portray this as a different environment. One much more desolate, dangerous and unique.

Edited March 29, 2012 by devinpatterson

[greenknightfury]

I realized why we were rebelling against your original population figures devin, even if we weren't conscious of why: Vault 101.

 

 

It is revealed that it's initial population was almost 2000 people but there are what maybe 20 people in it that you meet in game? And it makes a point of the fact that despite being carefully planned as a balanced number of men and women and having plenty of resources the population has fallen terribly, even though it was less than 30 years since it opened and only a couple of individuals had left. In fact they come right out and tell you that the kids you see in the goat room and at your birthday party are all the kids in the vault, so the population is maybe 50-60 people figuring allot of sterility or more like 30-40 figuring fully fertile people.

 

Also the idea that the small number of women you would find in a FO research capacity prewar would be enough to keep a population going...my math says maybe 10-20 women in that hundred based on female workers numbers hinted at in terminal entries in businesses scattered through 3 and NV, and that was mostly secretaries...which wouldn't be included in a pure research facility...so more likely 5-10 women amongst the scientists contractors and military support staff.

 

But I certainly think 100 or so people now is perfectly reasonable, most of them in the agridome and the city. There were around that many non generic npcs in the entire base game(if you include everyone that you interact with during quests), and the ones with something to actually say to the player would be smaller than that definitely, even if we did allot of flavor npcs and quests, 10-20 would be a good ratio based on the base game population.

Edited March 29, 2012 by greenknightfury

[devinpatterson]

Part of why I see this as I do with a colony aspect is the Enclave backing and the whole idea that it was a place to do what the Vault-tec tests were all about

 

I can understand where your coming from, and I'm on board with a vault type city somewhere on the scale of megaton. It will be a nice contrast.

 

maybe 20 people in it that you meet in game?.......In fact they come right out and tell you that the kids you see in the goat room and at your birthday party are all the kids in the vault, so the population is maybe 50-60 people figuring allot of sterility or more like 30-40 figuring fully fertile people.

 

Good point greenknightfury. I think we can do this where everyone is happy. Kibblesticks has a mechanism in place via the plotline that isolates the vault city and something on teh order of vault 101 or megaton won't drain too much of our man hours. So on that scale I think everyone could be happy.

 

Also the idea that the small number of women you would find in a FO research capacity prewar would be enough to keep a population going

 

You know that brings up an intersting point of scarcity and value. I wonder if the population has stabilized at something close to 50/50? If not and woman a minority would that work to an advantage (like in some cultures where girls are not only not wanted but actually killed) since more men mean more workers. Or wojuld the scarcity make them a very valuable commodity (whether giving them personal power or just as high priced chattel?

[greenknightfury]

Part of why I see this as I do with a colony aspect is the Enclave backing and the whole idea that it was a place to do what the Vault-tec tests were all about

 

I can understand where your coming from, and I'm on board with a vault type city somewhere on the scale of megaton. It will be a nice contrast.

 

Cool, this would be a perfect place for some flavor quests to help them get parts/supplies they desperately need to survive.

 

 

Also the idea that the small number of women you would find in a FO research capacity prewar would be enough to keep a population going

 

You know that brings up an intersting point of scarcity and value. I wonder if the population has stabilized at something close to 50/50? If not and woman a minority would that work to an advantage (like in some cultures where girls are not only not wanted but actually killed) since more men mean more workers. Or wojuld the scarcity make them a very valuable commodity (whether giving them personal power or just as high priced chattel?

 

Well if women are a lot more scarce than men history points to two possible ways that works out: Wars between men to get the women (which often killed off all the extra men or more), or turning into a matriarchy where women rule as they are the only means of the people surviving.

[TrooperScooperMKII]

 

You know that brings up an intersting point of scarcity and value. I wonder if the population has stabilized at something close to 50/50? If not and woman a minority would that work to an advantage (like in some cultures where girls are not only not wanted but actually killed) since more men mean more workers. Or wojuld the scarcity make them a very valuable commodity (whether giving them personal power or just as high priced chattel?

That is an interesting question...

anyway, Devin, I'm not clear on this, where are the humans and ghouls (and other non-hostile NPCs)? I'm suggesting that there could be makeshift vaults/"camp sites" down in the tunnels or stations, but you seem to be suggesting that they should be limited to a single dome settlement.

I just think that having a few survivors here and there, sort of like ranger stations i.e. four or five small, makeshift settlements of survivors/scavengers, dispersed across the tunnels/domes, which would be the only remnants of humanity outside the settlements (the tribals? and/or city)

or perhaps they're ghouls/sentient mutants a la Jacobstown; the added toughness/immunity to aging (and sterility) would allow them to hang on a lot longer, and would also explain why they wouldn't be too keen on mingling/joining the larger enclave settlements.

 

I also agree with Fury, that even if there are plenty of NPCs, they don't need to talk with the player; a few extra citizens/survivors to fill in the crowd (and give extra meat/fodder for conflicts) IMO helps fill out a settlement, even if they're just walking around with a gun or two.

[VaultPi]

I like that idea with the contruction robots, Von Neumann machines, we haven't seen those before yet...

[devinpatterson]

anyway, Devin, I'm not clear on this, where are the humans and ghouls (and other non-hostile NPCs)?

 

Well it depends somewhat on which humans and ghouls your talking about. In the vault city are humans (I havn't had a chance to read through kibblesticks plotline, but I'd guess they are workers-intended as vault dwellers and enclave or military, and if we implement kibblesticks plotline ghouls. In one of the agri domes will be feral ghouls and tribals. Probably not much in the way of humans in mainbase/lanuch pad but lots of infectious ghouls. Probably not much of either in the fev research, bio-weapons research or toxic jungle.

 

I'm suggesting that there could be makeshift vaults/"camp sites" down in the tunnels or stations, but you seem to be suggesting that they should be limited to a single dome settlement.

I just think that having a few survivors here and there, sort of like ranger stations i.e. four or five small, makeshift settlements of survivors/scavengers,

 

I have no problem with a few little groups of 4 or 5, I just didn't want a vault size pop in the tunnels in addition to teh vault city. Although the lava tunnels could function as the vault city if they are distant. I get the impression Kibblesticks wants them to have traveled to safe spot before blowing the rails or the vault city was built away from the main base.

Edited March 29, 2012 by devinpatterson

[kibblesticks]

Yeah, a settlement with roughly the population of Megaton would be fine. Would make more sense actually. Just have to think up a bit of a different environment for them, since a city is too large. I like the idea of having reasons for various survivors operating within their own little niches, could lead to some interesting survival stories.

 

 

Okay, so the problem I see here is we have a lot of ghouls. We have; the ghouls from the rocket, which aside from being a different colour offer the exact same experience as normal ghouls. Then we have the ghouls beneath the agri-dome, which if we go with the evil for evil's sake idea, will offer the same experience as the rocket ghouls. Then if we include the story of a society that casts out it's ghouls (which doesn't really make sense anywhere that isn't as idealic as the agri-dome), we'll have those as well, some of which will be feral (like the situation with Roy Phillips and the metro tunnel he lived in). Also, if the ghouls are

semi-intelligent

(they can't be fully intelligent if they're not perpared to co-operate with the tribals) how on earth are they breaching the dome's defences? Why hasn't the Dome's AI just eradicated the infestation or the tribals fought back?

 

To my mind, having 3 sets of ghouls isn't going to seem realistic, since ghoulification happens less frequently than death by radiation poisoning. So how about this compromise? We merge the intelligent ferals idea with the space ghouls, making them a much bigger threat. Most of them are contained within the facility (although how long can ghouls last without food and water?) but a few infected humans got out before the mainframe sealed the place. The ghouls are still savage and zombie like, looking to eat/spread the contagion across the remaining human populations. Actually this kind of fits into my idea about having them infected by a parasite (not necessarily biological, but sentient to a degree) that controls it's host's body to spread to other hosts. These ghouls can use tools to cut powercables or destroy obstacles, climb, operate things like doors and work out simple problems. They're incredibly dangerous because they have a single-minded hunter instinct, and can infiltrate structures that would keep normal ferals out.

 

In this way, the space ghouls can prey on the human survivors around the calderas with cunning unseen in ghouls before. The player may then think that the same ghouls are the ones preying on the agri-dome, but can delve deeper into the mystery and discover the real reason for these ghouls' regular attacks.

 

I dunno, obviously it's up to you in the end Devin, but in my mind's eye I just can't see random ferals being interesting beyond an initial "oh look, they've been retextured". Part of the greatness of ghouls to me is the fact that they retain their humanity, but are spurned by "normal" humans simply because of their disgusting looks. Roy Phillips or Gob are so much more interesting as characters than the umpteenth feral ghoul trying to eat your face.

[TrooperScooperMKII]

Yeah, a settlement with roughly the population of Megaton would be fine. Would make more sense actually. Just have to think up a bit of a different environment for them, since a city is too large. I like the idea of having reasons for various survivors operating within their own little niches, could lead to some interesting survival stories.

 

 

Okay, so the problem I see here is we have a lot of ghouls. We have; the ghouls from the rocket, which aside from being a different colour offer the exact same experience as normal ghouls. Then we have the ghouls beneath the agri-dome, which if we go with the evil for evil's sake idea, will offer the same experience as the rocket ghouls. Then if we include the story of a society that casts out it's ghouls (which doesn't really make sense anywhere that isn't as idealic as the agri-dome), we'll have those as well, some of which will be feral (like the situation with Roy Phillips and the metro tunnel he lived in). Also, if the ghouls are

semi-intelligent

(they can't be fully intelligent if they're not perpared to co-operate with the tribals) how on earth are they breaching the dome's defences? Why hasn't the Dome's AI just eradicated the infestation or the tribals fought back?

 

To my mind, having 3 sets of ghouls isn't going to seem realistic, since ghoulification happens less frequently than death by radiation poisoning. So how about this compromise? We merge the intelligent ferals idea with the space ghouls, making them a much bigger threat. Most of them are contained within the facility (although how long can ghouls last without food and water?) but a few infected humans got out before the mainframe sealed the place. The ghouls are still savage and zombie like, looking to eat/spread the contagion across the remaining human populations. Actually this kind of fits into my idea about having them infected by a parasite (not necessarily biological, but sentient to a degree) that controls it's host's body to spread to other hosts. These ghouls can use tools to cut powercables or destroy obstacles, climb, operate things like doors and work out simple problems. They're incredibly dangerous because they have a single-minded hunter instinct, and can infiltrate structures that would keep normal ferals out.

 

In this way, the space ghouls can prey on the human survivors around the calderas with cunning unseen in ghouls before. The player may then think that the same ghouls are the ones preying on the agri-dome, but can delve deeper into the mystery and discover the real reason for these ghouls' regular attacks.

 

I dunno, obviously it's up to you in the end Devin, but in my mind's eye I just can't see random ferals being interesting beyond an initial "oh look, they've been retextured". Part of the greatness of ghouls to me is the fact that they retain their humanity, but are spurned by "normal" humans simply because of their disgusting looks. Roy Phillips or Gob are so much more interesting as characters than the umpteenth feral ghoul trying to eat your face.

:thumbsup:

Actually, I gave a secondhand thought to an alien-type parasite infecting humans when I suggested the glowing statue; the story being that the ego-centric officer who "lived" surrounded by alien ruins (sort of like taking King Tut's tomb for a bunker, or at least looting it for furniture) and because of this he was either too close to the ruins, or an object he "repurposed" for a stool turned out to contain an alien parasite that ate his brain. :devil:

Aside from the "hoisted by his own petard" aesop, it also gives the chance for a small, nifty (i.e. ruin-furnished) room that may or may not be utilized by the player (it's good scenery regardless) and, in retrospect, would hint at the nature of the space ghoul's threat.

[devinpatterson]

Yeah, a settlement with roughly the population of Megaton would be fine. Would make more sense actually. Just have to think up a bit of a different environment for them, since a city is too large.

 

You could have a vault city, going along the lines you had mentioned

before of workers, vault experiment etc. Fits in well with FO lore. They

might even bring it in at close to the 600 bil mark if it's in the lava

tubes (as opposed to excavating 100's of feet below bedrock). It'd be

kinda nostalgic to see a vault on mars.

 

You could have a "requisitioned" agi dome, we should have at least two.

Then they could have an actual "open air" megaton city, but still follow

the storyline you'v laid out to blow the tracks to the dome. That'd be

an interesting contrast. Scrap city nestled inside one of the most

advanced off world structures ever built seems to really follow the

fallout ideal of irony. That'd also take care of their food/water

problem. If the anti-material turrets are still active that make even a

FEV monstrosity would think twice before wandering in range. Could

actually make for a pretty nice little place.....since there is just one

it would be a contrast to the rest of the project (where they are just

hanging on by the skin of their teeth), and wouldn't disrupt the general

theme of extreme desperation. Could also help to explain the extreme

social/gov control/order imposed on their little society (if I

understood your story line correctly). Barring FEV behemoths,

enclave/military with heavy weapons (fat man etc), they'd probably be

pretty safe as long as the automated defenses held up.

 

In fact there's a lot of quest material there for both the megaton in a

dome and vault city. The basic idea of them being somewhat secure inside

their respective cities but very vulnerable outside screams help we need

an outsider to do our dirty work. Retrieve parts for a failing

anti-material turret, a water chip, etc etc. And of course that's not

even touching on the city's internal problems (rebels), so you have a

ton of possible work for the player.

 

And of course on the more boring side they could also live in any other

facility. Don't think it'd have the character of a vault city or the

contrast of a megaton inside a dome, but it's workable. They just need

some place to fortify that offers them protection from enemies, can be

sealed for 02 etc.

 

If you decide to go with another city than the megaton in a dome, I was

thinking it might be interesting for a chosen few city dwellers to

occasionally trade with the the tribals (nobel savages from the morlock

dome) for food. The megaton dome wouldn't need it, but say for instance

if you went with the vault city, the trade would be somewhat reminiscent

of a mishmash of thanksgiving, trading beads for Manhattan etc that are

earmarks of whitemen and native american interactions. Vault dwellers

being about the most "civilized" man you can be. The natives might need

various tech parts (as instructed by Diana their AI god) to keep their

dome going, whereas teh vault city dwellers would appreciate fresh produce

and meat (if there is hunting) so it's mutually beneficial.

 

In fact trade could be a quest/task for the player. I could whip up a large version of a spider mine model (say size of a small car) clear off the top, to put crates and stuff on and make it follow the player. S/He guards it, escorts it to the agri dome (or if S/He is coming from the agri dome it's vice versa) where the player loads up produce, but gets wrapped up (or not) in teh morlock theme or other quests in that dome. Then when S/He is ready escort the spider mine (looks like a 6 legged platform loaded with containers) back to the vault city (for example). It's a good little quest to connect the two locals.

 

Also re: the morlocks I'd like to add a morlock king like the 2003 movie (fev infected) and teh AI the actual Diana AI back on earth, teh same one that controls the nursery. Since Derek & Greenway hydroponics will be active on the mars project. That way we have a sort of symmetry, highly intelligent mutant morlock king and his morlocks vs Diana and her noble tribals.

 

 

I like the idea of having reasons for various survivors operating

within their own little niches, could lead to some interesting survival

stories.

 

And we can really play up the survival horror aspect. Damaged

psychologies resulting in pathological cultures/societies etc. But of

course we'll need other examples to highlight the really F'd up ones, so

that not everyone you encounter is right out of resident evil. We can

fallback on fallout lore for a lot of the more "normal" peeps. Like

enclave will of course be the pure human ideals. But some examples can

be purely a facet of the mars project like a groupd of scientists and

science minded individuals that willingly (yes voluntarily) gave up

their body to place their gray matter in robobrains. Giving up the

sensations of of a lovers caress, the taste of a fine meal etc for the

pursuit of science, immortality or simple survival (maybe they were

dangerously irradiated, infected with FEV or some other result that

would cause their bodies to fail).

 

Okay, so the problem I see here is we have a lot of ghouls.

 

And I should say up front the space ghouls arn't absolutely essential they are just part of my 50's sci-fi homage (which I actually stretched to the 60's as well), specifically the black and white (1968) "night of the dead".

 

Speaking of the 50's sci-fi homage, I was thinking instead of just doing "the fly" and having a scientist with a bloatfly head how about expanding on the OWB gene splicing setup. You know the one where you splice a robobrain and a dog and get Roxie the robodog. Well in OWB she's the only thing that you get out of it other than an exploding robobrain and a lobotomite. But I say we expand it and let our imaginations run wild, with models/assets being the only restriction. Robo nightstalkers,

 

Crap ran out of time, ok I'll try and adress the rest when I get home.