Stormcloak vs Legion

[bombomb]

Yeah, the argument that Ulfric is an incapable military leader is unsupported. How can a guy be an incapable military leader if he's able to push the Imperial Legion OUT of Skyrim?

 

Doesn't make any sense...

Edited December 15, 2011 by bombomb

[Matth85]

Eh, you really are getting worked up by lore-fiction, aren't you? Okay:

 

Made up lies and conjecture. Flat out. That's all that is. I'm bored of fielding this completely and totally unsupported garbage. Here is the actual reality as given by the Thalmor dossier itself:

Oh, yeah, the dossier.

Ulfrics death would have dramatically increased the chance of an Imperial victory and thus harmed out overall position in Skyrim....A stormcloak victory is also to be avoided, however, so even indirect aid must be carefully managed."

Means: Empire wins = super bad. Stormcloak win = not as bad, but bad. Both losing = good.

Understanding is 90% of reading.

 

THIS DOESN'T MATCH UP WITH IDIOT IDEAS THAT SKYRIM WILL SUDDENLY BE WEAK AND VULNERABLE

Let me ask you this: Does SKyrim look NOT weak and vurnerable to you? It is in COMPLETE disaster at the moment. A civil war makes it even worse, add some dragons on top. Look at the cities defense, look what the Stormcloak is wearing. The main defense of Skyrim, as of now, is:

 

You -> Against the dragons.

Imperials --> Holding the Thalmor calm for a while.

 

The Dovahkiin arriving and immediately resolving the situation is disasterous to the Thamor. EITHER WAY.

 

The dragonborn got no chance against 100 Thalmor. If the talk lore, not game, then: ONE arrow can end your life. Have 100 Thalmor shoot your way, and you are dead in the end. You are trained to kill dragons, not an army. You are not a god, you are a mortal with more power than the average man.

 

The Thalmors plan is a balanced one: They make the civil war last. THAT is why they let Ulfric live. The war goes on, Skyrim is weakened more and more. They could then do whatever they want. This is not unsupported, and you don't need any big sense of strategy to see it. Divide and conquer is a strong plan, and it is planned out well. You can not help, since lore-wise you'd have to take care of the dragons first. When you are able to help, Skyrim is really in a bad shape. If you were high king, then MAYBE you could do a strategic assault and help out the Legion, even if you are not a part of it. However, Ulfrics sense of tactic is as big as my fathers sense of gaming: None, zero, zip.

 

You do not need any Dossiers to understand that. The Thalmor got a plan, the Empire got a plan, The Stormcloak does not. Skyrim is weak, and getting weaker. Why join the weakest link, and break up a 3-province-union, because a bunch of racist wants it? I don't see the reasoning.

 

 

EDIT:

he's able to push the Imperial Legion OUT of Skyrim?

You mean the Imperials that got their hands busy with the Thalmor? The ones that tries to build up to repel? Of course he can throw them out. Anybody could by now. By the way, the only reason he could push them out, is because o f you. Seen the maps of who owns what in the game? The Imperial got what, 3/4 of the outposts? And about 3 of the ones the Stormcloak got is being ravaged by necromancers and wild life. Without dragonborn, the stormcloak loses, as seen in-game.

 

Ulfric is an incapable military leader is unsupported

None said he wasn't capable. We just say he is too shortsighted and got no plan. He is also the least honorable man I've seen in a video game. Power hungry to the toes and what not.

If he could pull his crap together, and think TAMRIEL over NORDS/SKYRIM, then he could do good. As of now, he does not show promise.

Edited December 15, 2011 by Matth85

[magnum03]

If the Stormcloaks win, Skyrim turns into The Land Of Angry Elf Murderers, Led By The Guy We Tortured And Didn't Think This Could Possibly Come Back At Us Until A Screaming, Dragon F****** Death Machine Made Him High King And Thus Untouchable.

There is no way the broken down Skyrim could even tickle the Thalmor. Bring the war to Summerset Isles, and Skyrim is wiped out. We talk about a bunch of people that is on the egde of taking over Tamriel. The Nords are primitive, the elves are not. Healing magic + light armor is tenfold better than a 2 handed and leather armor.

 

If the Stormcloak wins, they are screwed. They need to rebuild, but that leaves Cyrodiil and Hammerfell to be invaded. They could attack, but that means they would be wiped out rather quick.

Ulfric is an idiot, and don't see the bigger picture here. He doesn't have a military tactic, which the Thalmor does. Heck, the Thalmor WANTS the Stormcloak to win, after a hard war. That way they got 2 options open:

A) Take out Cyrodiil or Hammerfell. Keep a line of defense to hold the other province's backup occupied, whilst taking over. Skyrim can't help, since they need to rebuild, and Ulfric couldn't be arsed to help non-Nords.

B) Take out Skyrim. The Stormcloak just broke the Empire. They are almost powerless, and are not allowed to help. Unprepared Nords versus a war. Who will win?

 

Really, the Thalmor got the plan planned out carefully, and Ulfric is playing right into it. There is a reason they didn't want Ulfric dead in the intro. He is a vital piece to taking over the last areas now.

 

 

[[[How would the thalmor attack skyrim in your vast military tactics knowledge there's a little something called supply lines which means they wouldn't be able to invade via the see and if they took cyrodil great they would be wasting more troops policing its not like they're gonna allow Imperials to enlist not to mention being over stretched and instead of having a border against the Empire and Hammerfell they'd also have border friction between the argonians in the black marsh, Skyrim, and the Breton princes or whatever they call themselves. So If the Thalmor where to invade and annex the Empire (with a seperate Skyrim) hammerfell, the bretons and skyrim would be able to launch a mass invasion and the Argonians will want a slice aswell so either way if the Thalmor are smart the would not seek further advances on the continent and stick to they're little island.]]]

 

were not expecting the almighty Dovahkiin to appear out of nowhere

Even the mighty can fall. It wouldn't take more than 20 men to take down Dovahkiin alone. And no, Ulfric would not let you take an army to help anybody. You are not in power, you are a mere puppet now. Ulfric is power hungry, and will not share.

 

now I do agree that Ulfric is an idiot the first thing that has to be done is move the capital to whiterun and centralize because each jarl having so much power is horrible they should attempt an absolute monarchy with the Dragonborn as Emperor.

Edited December 18, 2011 by magnum03

[tomhughes]

Stormcloak or Legion?

 

Wouldn't it be great if it actually mattered? I have to say I was competly underwhelemed by the entire civil war questline and can't wait for a mod to sort it out

[Nomad42]

I think people give the Thalmor too much credit. Yes the empire had major losses during the Great War, but at the end the entire Thalmor Army was completely destroyed in Cyrodil, and routed in Hammerfall. They are in no position to do anything, though neither is the Empire. Which is why they made peace in the first place. Both are rebuilding their forces, but the Empire is in a greater position. In terms of land, both have 3 provinces in complete control. Hammerfall is independent. Morrowind is sitll hurting from the giant explosion and is basically in a civil war. Black Marsh and southern Morrowind is currently controlled by the Argonians. If the Legion loses Skyrim, it loses the War. However the Thalmor hate the men races, so the Nords would be in worse hands with the Stormcloaks, who hate elves and would never open diplomatic relations.

[EberronJunkie]

The Thalmor, aka Altmer ruling class, basically own their native isle, and have vassel states in the form of Elsewere. They have been brutally kicked out of Hammerfell by the Redguard WITHOUT the help of the empire after a bloody war.

 

The Argonians are insular these days, wanting nothing much to do with either Imperial or Thalmor designs.

 

Morrowind is still pretty cripled from Red Mountain, the diaspora of its Dunmer and the recovery of its ecology.

 

The Imperial empire as we know it is fractured yes, but they only want Skyrim because Hammerfall, Black Marsh, Elsewere and Morrowind want little to do with them, and Skyrim is resource rich. The Imperials are biding their time, they know the elves will come again, and they need their allys.

 

BUT, the redguard will keep them out of their West flank, a neutral Morrowind and Black Marsh keep the east flank not defended but at the very least more neglible in defence. So whats left of the empire just needs to worry about their southern border. The Talos agreement bought time, thats it. Men cowtow to the elves for a while, then kick their asses out.

 

This leaves Skyrim as the last province to rape and pillage in the name of the empire. But of course when you kick out a cultural icon and semi divine hero, you upset the population, as well you get demogogues like Ulfric up in arms with the whole nationalism and patriotism spiel. It couldn't come at a worse time for the Imperials, and it's short sighted for Skyrim.

 

HOWEVER. Had I run the show I would have pulled a Morrowind, were I the Imperials. Basically make your presence known in garrisons etc, rent it out from the nobles. You get influence, you can gain trade etc, but you don't have to worry about the overall maintenance of the country, and eventually you get an ally, because we're all humans, and the elves are scummy arrogant bastards.

 

TDLR Stormcloaks in the short term, become dark brotherhood, off ulfric and put his third in command, the one nice to dunmer etc, in power. Keep Ilisef in Solitude to keep Imperial liasons tangible and start training up the Blades in anti elf tactics...

 

...Also Parthurnaax can teach the voice to more people, and you've got your own dragon to call down fire on your foes, should an army knock at your doorstep.

 

 

 

 

ALSO, 100 Thalmor, three rune time stop shout, lay down firewall and electric wall on their slow motion bodies, cast invisibility, stand and lol.

Edited December 19, 2011 by EberronJunkie

[Bumbro07]

It doesn't have to be the next incarnation of the Dragonborn to drive out the Thalmor and their Dominion. The Dragonborn himself is hardly wasting away of old age after defeating Alduin. The last expansion for TES:V should take place during the war to free the rest of Tamriel from the Aldmeri. However, I do not believe that the Empire should stay intact through this crisis. Skyrim and every other "province" that was held by the Empire should either secede or be granted independence. After this, those regions whose common interest is to oppose the Thalmor and their Dominion should ally with each other and fight them off. Tamriel should be composed of an alliance of equals instead of an Empire and its subordinates. That is the only way lasting peace, I mean truly lasting peace, can be achieved.

 

In my opinion, the provinces that are free of the Thalmor have very strong advantages. The Aldmeri have annexed Valenwood and subdued Eleswyr. So, in addition to the Altmer, the Dominion also included the Wood Elves and the Khajit, who, I don't suspect, are too eager to fight for their elven overlords.

 

The other regions of Tamriel, which I presume to constitute the opposing side, have the Imperials, Nords, Bretons, Orcs, Redguards, Dunmer, and the Argonians. Actually, I don't remember if Black Marsh is a part of the Admeri Dominion yet, but anyways:

The Nords, Orcs, and Redguards are excellent fighters, the Bretons and Dunmer are good mages, as far as I know, the Argonians are supposed to be good spies and such, and the Imperials are supposed to be a sort of factotum race.

 

If each of these races can find the will to fight the Aldmeri Dominion, I am certain that they will be able to defeat them. I do, however, think that this will not be possible until all the races are sovereign over their respective territories nor until they unite to fight the Thalmor off.

Edited December 22, 2011 by Bumbro07

[Yhnop]

The Thalmor, aka Altmer ruling class, basically own their native isle, and have vassel states in the form of Elsewere. They have been brutally kicked out of Hammerfell by the Redguard WITHOUT the help of the empire after a bloody war.

 

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:The_Great_War

 

4E 174: The Sack of the Imperial City

 

In 4E 174, the Thalmor leadership committed all available forces to the campaign in Cyrodiil, gambling on a decisive victory to end the war once and for all. During the spring, Aldmeri reinforcements gathered in southern Cyrodiil, and on 12th of Second Seed, they launched a massive assault on the Imperial City itself. One army drove north to completely surround the city, while Lord Naarifin's main force attacked the walls from the south, east, and west. The Emperor's decision to fight his way out of the city rather than make a last stand was a bold one. No general dared advise him to abandon the capital, but Titus II was proven right in the end.

 

While the Eighth Legion fought a desperate (and doomed) rearguard action on the walls of the city, Titus II broke out of the city to the north with his main army, smashing through the surrounding the Aldmeri forces and linking up with reinforcements marching south from Skyrim under General Jonna. Meanwhile, however, the capital fell to the invaders and the infamous Sack of the Imperial City began. The Imperial Palace was burned, the White Gold Tower itself looted, and all manner of atrocities carried out by the vengeful elves on the innocent populace.

 

In Hammerfell, General Decianus was preparing to drive the Aldmeri back from Skaven when he was ordered to march for Cyrodiil. Unwilling to abandon Hammerfell completely, he allowed a great number of "invalids" to be discharged from the Legions before they marched east. These veterans formed the core of the army that eventually drove Lady Arannelya's forces back across the Alik'r late in 174, taking heavy losses on their retreat from harassing attacks by the Alik'r warriors.

[Matth85]

but at the end the entire Thalmor Army was completely destroyed in Cyrodil

Right after they had taken over cyrodiil. The Emperor barely managed to escape.

So no, they are more owerfull than that. They almost had Cyrodiil, and they almost had Hammerfell.

 

In Hammerfell, General Decianus was preparing to drive the Aldmeri back from Skaven when he was ordered to march for Cyrodiil. Unwilling to abandon Hammerfell completely, he allowed a great number of "invalids" to be discharged from the Legions before they marched east. These veterans formed the core of the army that eventually drove Lady Arannelya's forces back across the Alik'r late in 174, taking heavy losses on their retreat from harassing attacks by the Alik'r warriors.

 

Which explains that either Hamerfell or Cyrodiil would be lost if the Empire didn't split it up as they did. They needed all solider of the Empire to get back Cyrodiil, and Hammerfell needed a good bunch of veteran soliders to win. Which means if the Thalmor decides to block Cyrodiil from Hammerfell, and go on an al assault of Hammerfell, it would be lost. If Skyrim is not under the Empire by then, they might not help --> 1 lost, 1 almost lost. That means Cyrodiil wil have an all out assauly on every border. Nobody can win a, what - 4 border war?

 

The Thalmor got unlucky. They do not got the manpower to wipe out all 3 lands, as of now. Which is why they are playing divide and conquer in Skyrim. Divide the 3-alliance into 2, and take down either Hammerfell, Cyrodiil or Skyrim. They are more than capable to do that.

 

In my opinion, the provinces that are free of the Thalmor have very strong advantages. The Aldmeri have annexed Valenwood and subdued Eleswyr. So, in addition to the Altmer, the Dominion also included the Wood Elves and the Khajit, who, I don't suspect, are too eager to fight for their elven overlords.

If I put a gun to your familys heads, I bet you would do anything for me. THey got no choice: The Aldmeri decides, and they follow.

 

If each of these races can find the will to fight the Aldmeri Dominion, I am certain that they will be able to defeat them.

 

 

You forget the racism in Tamriel. If not under the Empire, they will not help each other. Nords would not help Elves, Orcs would not help Elves, Argonians don't really care. It is the leadership that decides, and they will not unite. Do you think Ulfric would join forces with Hammerfell and Cyrodiil? Hardly. He'd rush in himself and get brutally murdered.

 

Remember, if tell you to help me, and I will reward you with safety, I am sure you would love to assist me. The Aldmeri, and Thalmor, need just to tell the Wood Elves. and our furries, that they will keep their safety and hold a certain rank above the others when they rule. Any person would say yes to that. Besides, Nords are not known to be nice to other races, so they will not play nice back.

Edited December 22, 2011 by Matth85