I will give Ulfric credit

[imperistan]

The only eye witnesses i know of are the Mage in Solitude, Ulfric, and Torygg. The mage and Torygg both indicate that Ulric used it as an opener to drop Torygg to the ground, and the boy was dead before he could get to his feet. That is a major strategic differance than a simple artistic flourish.

 

If you speak to everyone involved then you'll see a very clear bias on both sides. Those in Solitude show clear signs of being tremendously shook by what happened (which I can tell is causing them to not tell the full story) and naturally they are going to be biased towards their own views, so you have to get rid of both these issues to try and see what truly occurred. And its much the same thing on the other side of Skyrim, but with Ulfric you can't really count on his side of the story because you can't really ask him for it directly.

 

But, if you get rid of the bias on both sides (and understand how such duels work), then it shows that there was a stretch of time between the challenge being issued and Torygg finally dying. And it can only be that the men fought for a while before Ulfric used the voice.

 

Couple this with the fact that it was well known by virtually everyone that Torygg was going to lose that duel regardless, then it becomes obvious that Ulfric didn't use the voice for any serious tactical reason. Its a case of someone fighting someone else he knows he can defeat with ease, and only giving him a chance to try and fight despite his ultimate doom. Using the voice strengthens Ulfric's original point in showing that Torygg was worthless as High King.

 

Your real world comparison is also one of practicality, rather than one of philosophy as mine were. Through your example you are directly implying that the rules of a duel in Skyrim are the same as what one would expect of a classic Nordic duel. That is, you can use any skill you possess to win. We know for a fact that this is not the case, as Magic is forbidden.

 

Thu'um is not magic in the same sense that regular magic is. Again, Thu'um has been a part of Nordic culture since just after man first came to Tamriel, and unlike magic in the conventional sense, it was never something that would be feared or mistrusted. It would be totally acceptable.

 

The only living people, asside from Ulfric, who can Shout are the Greybeards. In fact, i think it's safe to say that to learn his single Thu'um Ulfric would have had to have been trained by the Greybeards, which means using the Thu'um in a duel is a violation of the way of the Voice, but thats another arguement

 

The Way of the Voice came about well after Thu'um had been a part of Nordic culture, and when it first came about and became prevalent was around the same time that Nordic culture started moving away from where it was until it reached what we have today.

 

And even besides that, the philosophy of a few old monks is great up on top of a mountain, but not down at the base. Jurgen Windcaller was a victim of arrogance as were many Nords, particularly back then. They thought themselves invincible with their voice and they came away humbled. His mistake however was simply in not realizing that it was arrogance that faulted him. Thu'um was and always has been a weapon. Used by a wise man (something a High-King is expected to be) it can be just as powerful as it needs to be for him. Used by a foolish man, it will fail him.

 

And this leads me to my next point that regardless of whether Ulfric was right in using the Thu'um against Torygg, it still proves that Torygg did not deserve his station. Thu'um does not make you invincible, and Ulfric's voice is nothing special. Any competent warrior (such as the High King is expected to be) could have fought through his voice.

 

If Torygg was a worthy High-King, he would have slew Ulfric like the insignificant Jarl's son he was. If he was a worthy High King, he would have established Skyrim's independence on his own, rather than waiting for some Jarl's son to come and ask him to do so. If he was a worthy High-King, he would not have given any quarter to the Empire's failings with the Dominion.

[magiii]

i agree with impersitan. the only thing bad we CAN see in ulfric is his racism which is not something especial or unique to him. nearly EVERYONE in tamriel are racism. be it altmers or dumers. or nords or even orcs. so ulfric being racism is not something you would be shocked for it. but his racism can make him a better high king due to his concerns about nords. as we see in markarth he was going to massacre a city just for getting back their own lands from nords so he would protect nords as much as he can.

But, if you get rid of the bias on both sides (and understand how such duels work), then it shows that there was a stretch of time between the challenge being issued and Torygg finally dying. And it can only be that the men fought for a while before Ulfric used the voice.

how do you know they fought for a while?

 

even if thu'um is not allowed in the duels, even if ulfric attacked torryg with an army and killed him, he can lead skyrim to a better future than being under the boots of thalmor and having a civil war in it. if imperials win there will still be thalmor in skyrim because they literally own the empire. as we see in DB quests there is a big power conflict in cyrodiil and that will lower empire's power to fight with thalmor.

 

thu'um uses a huge amount of work and discipline for non dragonborns to learn and this shows that ulfric is that kind of man. as we see in the siege of solitude his thu'um is not that strong so that means torryg was so weak he was thrown away with it.

[midtek]

i agree with impersitan. the only thing bad we CAN see in ulfric is his racism which is not something especial or unique to him. nearly EVERYONE in tamriel are racism. be it altmers or dumers. or nords or even orcs. so ulfric being racism is not something you would be shocked for it. but his racism can make him a better high king due to his concerns about nords.

It cannot be generalized like that. Although racism can be found all across by individuals and locals, we see much more people get along with others and mixed with(at least overwhelmingly being seen in-game). Ulfric's problem of racism is not about his personal preference but how he governs his land. He sends troops immediately when Nord farmers attacked by bandits while nothing does when it comes to other races, IN HIS OWN LAND.

 

It already influenced how Windhelm local treat to others. It has a lot of potential possibility being worsened when whole Skyrim under his reign; and when it pass on to each and every successors and generations to worst.

 

I think the cause of Ulfric and Stormcloaks is more about the resentment toward Empire.

 

Not because Nord heavily costed in Great War only to lose; whole people of Empire also suffered and Talos was their beloved god too.

Nord manhoods could be happy to die in fight and hail to Sovngarde. But Empire rather showed weak obedience and threw Talos away which is remarkable insults to bitter heartened warriors.

 

So they pointed their sword toward Empire and spitted on civil rules; claiming it's their homeland and only the strong can rule Skyrim in its traditional way of Nord-hood. And that kind of crisis; likely to lead Nationalism and to revere the national war hero; like we saw n World Wars.

 

They already made Dunmer ghetto in Windhelm. We see the whole picture by it.

[Linsolv]

I read through about eleven pages of this topic, and reading it made me only support Ulfric stronger, so many people in this topic seem to think he's the devil incarnate, and that killing Torygg was "MURDER WITHOUT SYMPATHY".

 

I don't know what points were made since then, but killing someone is a duel does not mean it's murder. Way of the voice is not magic, it was used by Talos, and Nords respect Talos, so I see no reason why it would be 'illegal' to use it in a duel. A duel of which no one knows the rules of. "Oh no Ulfric is a monster for Murdering Torygg". Torygg accepted the duel knowing full well the outcome, and it was according to the ancient Nordic laws.

 

I'm a firm supporter of the Stormcloaks, because they're doing nothing wrong. Skyrim is their homeland, (The Nedes came from Atmora long ago and settled there in Skyrim.) and the Stormcloaks are simply defending their land from Elves who think they're better than man. Seriously, how would you feel if Someone came up to you and told you Jesus was not a legitimate religious figure, then banned him, even if you, and everyone in your country worshiped him? You'd be mad as hell. Talos was a god of men, and the Mer are only banning him to feel superior, I fully support the Nords worship of Talos. (Also, if Talos wasn't a god, how can he still give you divine protection at his shrines?"

 

I really don't know what else was said. But I support the Stormcloaks entirely, and I believe they're doing the right thing.

 

Similar thing happened to me. As I read the discussions people were having, and tried to do my own research, I kept being reaffirmed in my belief that he didn't do anything wrong. The only problem is that as an NPC that I have to deal with, I don't like him much. It's not really even rational. He was perfectly nice to my hero, I just felt like he was bored. And given that I was going out and working my butt off while he sat on his throne, bored is the one thing I don't want him to sound like.

 

So when it comes to discussions of how "racist" he is, I defend him, but if you want to know my honest opinions on the civil war I don't like either of them.

Edited February 18, 2012 by Linsolv

[imperistan]

how do you know they fought for a while?

 

Its just what I've been able to deduce. They could have fought or they could have talked. But I doubt they talked, there wasn't much to speak of and if they were just talking before Ulfric used the Thu'um then the people in Solitude would be going on about Ulfric never giving Torygg a chance to defend himself, not just that Ulfric killed him.

 

In fact, its the very fact that they don't go on about Ulfric not giving Torygg a chance at defending himself that tells me they must have fought, if only for a minute, before Ulfric used the voice.

 

They already made Dunmer ghetto in Windhelm. We see the whole picture by it.

 

The Dunmer make their own ghetto. They are lucky to even be allowed in the city given all the bad blood between them and the Nords. They have little right to complain about Ulfric doing nothing for them when Ulfric doesn't have to even let them live IN the city. They have little right to complain when they would have done the exact same thing to the Nords if the roles were switched.

[Linsolv]

The Dunmer make their own ghetto. They are lucky to even be allowed in the city given all the bad blood between them and the Nords. They have little right to complain about Ulfric doing nothing for them when Ulfric doesn't have to even let them live IN the city. They have little right to complain when they would have done the exact same thing to the Nords if the roles were switched.

 

Not to sound like I'm talking out of both sides of my mouth here, I think this is going a BIT far. I'd like to see a mod that makes the Windhelm Grey Quarter much worse, but I don't think "the should take it and like it" is ever the right response.

 

That said, the problems that the Dunmer have are nothing compared to the Argonians, and those aren't comparable to the problems of the Khajiit, which is a point I made above. And what it suggests to me is that if I feel ashamed of betraying Balgruuf the Greater, because I liked him a lot, and he doesn't allow Argonians or Khajiit into his city, then I shouldn't feel bad about liking someone because he has a bad rep and basically the same policies.

[midtek]

That said, the problems that the Dunmer have are nothing compared to the Argonians, and those aren't comparable to the problems of the Khajiit, which is a point I made above. And what it suggests to me is that if I feel ashamed of betraying Balgruuf the Greater, because I liked him a lot, and he doesn't allow Argonians or Khajiit into his city, then I shouldn't feel bad about liking someone because he has a bad rep and basically the same policies.

I don't think Khajiit are in that much trouble. Most Khajiits in this game are traders and explain themselves they came this far land risking danger for fortune oppertunities. And they are actually making good profits of it! Keeping them outside of capital is public order matter; and Khajiits say it's harsh but tolerable. Clearly they don't consider Skyrim as residence so just fine as long as profit goes around.

 

On the other hands, the inhabitants of Whiterun regardless of races are all concerned in Balgruuf as 'my people'. They are being treated fairly just as Nord locals. Hell, the housecarl is even a dark elf repect well each other. I like Balgruuf too. He takes responsibility but being sick of a powerhouse.

 

Dark elves are in real trouble I think, as they lost their homeland and immigrated here quite long time ago. Maybe they deserve it as they enslaved others in their prosper times in Morrowind. If that's true; Ulfric's reign may also deserve it. But I think no one deserves such thingies if you ask. Why can't just get along with others. :biggrin: I am sick of politics!

Edited February 18, 2012 by midtek

[imperistan]

Not to sound like I'm talking out of both sides of my mouth here, I think this is going a BIT far. I'd like to see a mod that makes the Windhelm Grey Quarter much worse, but I don't think "the should take it and like it" is ever the right response.

 

Well its not to say that they shouldn't have better conditions, but its largely their own responsibility to make the Grey Quarter a better place for them to live.

[BloXboX]

Why do you guys think Ulfric is a racist?

 

If Ulfric were truly a racist, he wouldn't let them in at all. Put yourself in his position. You rule over a city, your people's very way of life is being threatened by a crumbling Empire and a genuinely racist group of Elven radicals. You have to put your people first. Why doesn't he send his men to help Khajiit caravans? Why doesn't he spruce up the Grey Quarter? I dunno, maybe because he's fighting a f***ing war? Skyim is the land of the NORDS. It's NOT a cosmopolitan melting pot like Cyrodiil. Why would he risk the lives of his troops for people who willingly came to Skyrim as guests? Just because they want to make a profit, he suddenly has to guard anyone in his hold? And the Dark Elves, refugees he could have easily turned away, but didn't. He GAVE them a district! And he's a racist? For letting them live in his city?? Why don't THEY make the Grey Quarter better? The Argonians settled into the docks and became productive citizens, and best of all, they're grateful. They understand they're visitors in this land and earn their keep. Meanwhile, the Dark Elves are given their own quarter, then *censored* and moan they're not being treated 1st class. Just what you'd expect from former slave masters who would have never extended the same courtesy they're asking for back in their homeland.

 

It's also worth remembering he'll let the player, regardless of race (even High Elves) support his cause. Ulfric Storm cloak is passionate about his land, his people. He is NOT a racist.

[sukeban]

I guess I'll wade into this :)

 

Just some random thoughts/notes:

 

1. It's unknown how long Ulfric and Torygg fought. The terrified hearsay emanating from Solitude makes it sound like some sort of a one-shot m-m-m-m-monster kill of th'ume, but Ulfric explicitly says that he finished Torygg with his sword. Whether or not that means he just stabbed him after throwing him against the wall (IMO probably what happened...) is open to debate, but I don't think that evidence supports any sort of a protracted duel. I definitely fall into the category of "GG Weak Kings" so I am completely fine with what Ulfric did. He likely could have bested him without the Th'ume as well, but chose to use it for dramatic effect/demonstration purposes. Ancient Skyrim custom says that High Kings must be able to physically defend their throne (like Orc chiefs); this was probably changed because the Empire desired weak/weasely High Kings that would do their bidding in exchange for gold. After they began bribing Skyrim's other jarls--and thus guaranteeing their High King's success in the Moot--they outlawed the rite of challenge so that their weak/bought kings would safe, insulated against the only plausible means of challenging their authority.

 

2. Balgruff was a fine jarl and I definitely favor him over that senile Vignar guy. However, he was also taking massive amounts of Imperial gold, as all the Imperial jarls were. At some point after he is defeated, the Steward brings it up and he gets all defensive, trying to deny that "all those chests of Imperial gold" didn't sway his support toward the Empire. He was a bought jarl, regardless of his actual ruling acumen. He was paid gold to respect the interests of a foreign power... potentially over the interests of his own people. Gerdur hints at this. IMO, the gold was decisive; if Ulfric could have paid him as handsomely as the Empire did, I am sure that he would have reconsidered his position. He respects his Nord traditions, but not enough to risk losing his wealth over. I find it telling that, after the battle of Whiterun, he says literally nothing about the plight of his people, making me think that he is more angry over losing his fabulous castle, power, and chests of gold than he is about what is happening to his people under Stormcloak rule.

 

3. Elisif. Seriously, why do people like her? Because her sprite isn't of a hagraven or igrod ravencrone? Because she shares her voice with Sylgja? She is the definition of a weak ruler. When you first enter the Blue Palace, she readily agrees to the Dragonbridge guy's request to send a legion to Wolfskull Cave. Then her adviser chimes in and overrides her, saying that they'll send a few more guards to the town. When he leaves, he tells you that they weren't going to send anybody to actually check out the cave at all! Had it not been for the Dragonborn, Potema would have destroyed Solitude and necromanced everybody! Seriously, who is the jarl here, Falk Firebeard or Elisif? Elisif is not intelligent, nor does she have charisma, vision, or conviction. She sways in the wind with whatever suggestion any assertive figure might insist that she adopt. And she claims that she is the rightful High Queen?! That is just a disgusting idea. She is a bimbo. She is not a bad person, but she is a terrible leader. She is exactly the sort of High Queen that the Empire would want for Skyrim--someone that Tullius can overrule and dictate to, no questions asked. And I am sure that Torygg was the exact same way. He may not have been a bad person either (likely he was not), but he was a weakling High King during a time when Skyrim and Tamriel could afford to brook no jive from weak leaders.