I will give Ulfric credit

[Hersir666]

Never realy thought of Ulfric being racist or somehow evil before coming to these forums. I dont recall him saying one think throghout the stormcloak questline that could be really interpreted as being blatantly racist. Only, in response to his steward, he says that he has more pressing things than to deal with the dark elves' problems, as the civil war is going on. That might show that he is not very empathetic to them, but not racist. To many people get so easily offended these days and just love to throw around the racist argument, when they have no better way of making a point. Other than that he just talks about being tired of seeing his countryman dying on far away battlefileds in the name of an empire that is not really theirs anymore. Which makes sense. The aldmeri really never threatened Skyrim(think geography), only Cyrodil and the southern parts of the empire. After the imperials got heir a.. kicked, it was a norhern army, form Skyrim, that came down and defeated the Aldmery army and then the imperials in order to safe themselves sold out Hammerfell and the most important norhern deity. At the end of the day, its far more clear that the empire(really imperials) need skyrim more then skyrim needs them. Skyrim was its own empire before and can be so again. The only reason they ever joined this empire was do to Talos, being the aspect of Ysmir, the dragon of the north.

 

The same goes for the Stormcloaks. Dont really se how they are racist by wanting self rule and to preserve their traditions. The only real racist is that drunk in Windhelm, who is not even a real stormcloak soldier. Besides him, the most prejudice person in Windhelm is Viola Giraldano (probably misspelled it), who is not even a Nord but an imperial. The case in regards to Windhelm has less to do with Stormcloak racism and much more with just the city having a large immigrant population and thus some ethic tensions, which is quite normal with the historic realtions of the two species. But even in Windhelm, most of the Nords dont have anything against the dark elves, while still supporting Ulfric and the Stormcloaks. Also, people keep mentioning how the Kajit are not allowed into the Windhelm. What about Whiterun, where the Kahjits also have to stay outside, even during Balgruffs rule, whom everybody loves so much. The same with Markarth, while still supporting the empire.

[DagothDagonAlduin]

Ulfric is one of the Nords that actually welcomes the Dark Elves. What I don't like is his racism against Argonians. Ulfric just wants to kick the Thalmor out and Tullius is stopping him, even though Tullius hates them too. At the end of the storyline, Ulfric recognised the Empire as the good guys but he knew that they were just the Thalmor's puppets at this stage.

[kellerkat]

To me it seems Ulfric is at best apathetic and at worse manipulative when it comes to anyone who's not pro rebellion. By which I mean he just doesn't care, you're either with him or against him. For him Skyrim for the nords! is a political statement, it means the Empire should keep it's nose, and bribes, out of how Skyrim is ruled. Unfortunately this sort of sentiment attracts people who are genuinely racist. Ulfric lets the racist elements of his army continue unchecked because taking a stand against it will lose him more soldiers than it could possibly gain.

 

I really wanted to ask Ulfric about the Butcher and the Grey Quarter, his response would have revealed a lot about him, but alas all his dialogue is civil war focused.

 

As the duel is an old nordic tradition as is the use of the thu'um and the fact no-one says Ulfric using it was wrong/cheating I have to conclude he was perfectly in his rights to use a Shout while fighting Torygg. To me it seems like an unfair advantage, it's wrong to take something taught to you by pacifist monks, while training to be one of those monks, and use it as a weapon but it's not presented that way ingame.

 

The jarl of Whiterun says it outright- the duel with Torygg demonstrates Ulfirc's personal prowess (strong warrior and possessing the legacy of the ancient kings) and the assault on Whiterun demonstrates the strength of the Stormcloak army.

 

I'm of the opinion that the Thalmor did break him during the Great War and that's the demon that drives Ulfric to want to become high king. He wants to destroy that which destroyed him. And as the empire are conceding to the Dominion they too are the enemy unless they change their passive stance.

[trukittn]

Where did this topic spring up from? :o

 

Well, I'll add what I've learned (and am still learning, even after 500 hours in the game). I've been taking the time to read most of the books in game this time through and I've noted some very very interesting things in regards to this. If you haven't already, some good reads are Scourge of the Gray Quarter and Dunmer of Skyrim. Compare what you read in both of these books to the current situation in Windhelm which both are centered around.

 

To sum up Scourge of the Gray Quarter, it sounds like the Dark Elves that fled to Skyrim ended up in Windhelm or Riften - both border towns. The ones in Riften weren't welcomed with open arms at all, and as a result had to carve out their existence there and make themselves a useful part of society to gain acceptance there. They are now treated as any other race in the city. In contrast, Dark Elves were invited into Windhelm and offered total refuge by the open arms of Ulfric's fathers before him. This resulted in the dark elves there becoming more or less spoiled and discontent, expecting handouts instead of working to fit in as members of Windhelm society. It's no wonder most of the Nords there harbor disdain for them if this is the case, especially when the struggles began and the Elves of the Gray Quarter began to insist it wasn't their fight to be concerned with.

 

Which brings you to the contents of Dunmer of Skyrim - written by a Dunmer. :P If this little book is to be believed, the behavior of the Dunmer in Windhelm is all part of an elaborate plot to take over Skyrim little by little by expanding their influence in their stubborn refusal to ingratiate themselves into the city. He counts the renaming of the Snow Quarter as a victory, and tells the Nords that they are simply cattle in their masters fields. Those fields being Skyrim and the masters being the immigrant dark elves.

 

To be honest, it sounds to me like they are asking for or even welcoming the treatment they get in Windhelm. But now that Ulfric has stopped the handouts and handholding that the Scourge book indicates his fathers gave to them, they're quite bitter about it. Keep in mind, Ulfric inherited Windhelm, he didn't build it. He's been in wars almost all his life and is wary of the Dark Elves because they're sitting in his city with a civil war going on and refusing to aid the effort to keep their city free. At best they are dead weight. At worst, they are the ones who will open the gates for the Empire to take over. But even with that surely on his mind, he never actually behaves in an outright racist manner himself.

 

The argument that he 'allows' such behavior in his city and therefore is guilty himself is hogwash. If folk like Rolff were really going unchecked, the Gray Quarter would have been a ghost town by now. And if he had everyone (not just Nords!) arrested that spoke an insult to a dark elf, he'd have the rest of the city in jail. That's just silly.

 

My personal opinion on the dark elf situation in Windhelm is that it has many interesting sides to it if you dig deep enough, and blaming it all on Ulfric or calling him racist is the mark of those who believe the first thing they hear when walking through the gate of the city and don't bother to look any further. Which apparently is exactly what the Dunmer there want you to do.

 

:psyduck:

[Lunder]

Ulfric Is the perfect Leader for Skyrim in a crysis. My first playthrough was with a Loyal Imperial Nord, after Oblivion I thought the empire deserved a 2.chance ... Then i met Ulfric (2.playthrough) and his Speech of Truth:

 

I fight for the men I've held in my arms, dying on foreign soil!

I fight for their wives and children, whose names I heard whispered in their last breath!

I fight for we few who came home, only to find our country full of strangers wearing familiar faces!

I fight for my people impoverished to pay the debts of an Empire to weak to rule them, Yet brands them criminals for wanting to rule themselves!!

I fight so that all the fighting I've already done hasn't been for nothing!

I fight... because I must

 

His words give voice to what all skyrim feels.

[ufw7]

I also think that Ulfric is better for skyrim. But on the other hand I think that a strong Empire is better for tamriel.

But the game is only in Skyrim so I don't care much for the rest of the world :P

[Lunder]

You are the Dragonborn - like the septims, Like Talos if anyone should unite Tamriel it's you not the Mede Dynasty who rules the "Empire" currently

[eltucu]

Ulfric Is the perfect Leader for Skyrim in a crysis. My first playthrough was with a Loyal Imperial Nord, after Oblivion I thought the empire deserved a 2.chance ... Then i met Ulfric (2.playthrough) and his Speech of Truth:

 

I fight for the men I've held in my arms, dying on foreign soil!

I fight for their wives and children, whose names I heard whispered in their last breath!

I fight for we few who came home, only to find our country full of strangers wearing familiar faces!

I fight for my people impoverished to pay the debts of an Empire to weak to rule them, Yet brands them criminals for wanting to rule themselves!!

I fight so that all the fighting I've already done hasn't been for nothing!

I fight... because I must

 

His words give voice to what all skyrim feels.

Beth played well the first meeting with Stormcloack's head. Instead with the Imperials you get 1. Death penalty because you look the type who doesnt likes their head attached to their body. And when meeting Tullius 2. "I dont give a f. about this place. Fo' teh emprah!" Even playing a pro-imperial Khajiit, i find hard to not to get the f. out of there and run to Windhelm.

 

Though at the end of the campaign i dunno what to make out of Tullius words. "Its what they wanted" ? I played a quest that explicitly stated that its NOT what "they" wanted... It may be just bad writing (or miscommunication between the main quest team and the civil war quest team), since its cool to make think the player he made a bad call and all that, but its hard to think that when you have proof that "they" want to prevent both sides from winning so the war doesnt ends anytime soon. Maybe Tullius is just mis informed, though i'm leaning to that its just an oversight from the writers, which would be on par with Beth's usual writing.

[kellerkat]

Ulfric Is the perfect Leader for Skyrim in a crysis. My first playthrough was with a Loyal Imperial Nord, after Oblivion I thought the empire deserved a 2.chance ... Then i met Ulfric (2.playthrough) and his Speech of Truth:

 

I fight for the men I've held in my arms, dying on foreign soil!

I fight for their wives and children, whose names I heard whispered in their last breath!

I fight for we few who came home, only to find our country full of strangers wearing familiar faces!

I fight for my people impoverished to pay the debts of an Empire to weak to rule them, Yet brands them criminals for wanting to rule themselves!!

I fight so that all the fighting I've already done hasn't been for nothing!

I fight... because I must

 

His words give voice to what all skyrim feels.

Beth played well the first meeting with Stormcloack's head. Instead with the Imperials you get 1. Death penalty because you look the type who doesnt likes their head attached to their body. And when meeting Tullius 2. "I dont give a f. about this place. Fo' teh emprah!" Even playing a pro-imperial Khajiit, i find hard to not to get the f. out of there and run to Windhelm.

 

Though at the end of the campaign i dunno what to make out of Tullius words. "Its what they wanted" ? I played a quest that explicitly stated that its NOT what "they" wanted... It may be just bad writing (or miscommunication between the main quest team and the civil war quest team), since its cool to make think the player he made a bad call and all that, but its hard to think that when you have proof that "they" want to prevent both sides from winning so the war doesnt ends anytime soon. Maybe Tullius is just mis informed, though i'm leaning to that its just an oversight from the writers, which would be on par with Beth's usual writing.

 

 

Or it's what Tullis, an imperial general, honestly believes but you as a player know is wrong. It would have been nice to be able to point this out either when he says it or after his death to Ulfric so not to ruin the scene's pace. I agree it feels like a developers' oversight not being able to say anything.

[JesterKing]

Ulfric thinks he's fighting for Skyrim, but right now what's best for Skyrim is the empire. The thalmor are the real treat. Without Skyrim's warriors The Empire will surely fall. Not having access to their resources or anything.

 

Another war is surely going to come... the empire needs Skyrim as much as Skyrim needs the empire.

 

All I want is dlc to take out the Aldmeri Dominion. WHO'S WITH ME!?!?

Edited May 7, 2012 by JesterKing