Gibberish languages for Argonian, Khajiit, and Orc races?

[Electricjudge]

 

The text will appear on the screen the same way it does in KOTOR. I shouldn't have said subtitles because that has put some people off the idea. But it will appear on screen the same way your dialogue does, and the same way it worked in Morrowind. I haven't played that game but I gather it was mostly text? Rather than just silent characters with just text, we can add some gibberish over the top, to add more immersion. Not every NPC should understand everyone else. If they do have a reason for speaking to an Orc, or whatever they could use a magical item.

 

I thought about the translation problem. In Star Wars, most aliens speak Intergalactic Basic, but some still prefer to speak their own language. As a Jedi, you can automatically translate languages for yourself and the speaker. Obviously, TES characters don't use the Force, but they do have access to magic. We could have items like, Orcish Ring, which lets you understand Orcish, for example. You're right; there does need a feasible explanation for the player's knowledge of other languages.

 

I don't think magic is a good explanation, my character is a thief/assassin and has as much magic in it as a bucket of milk and in Star Wars it makes sense because of how loosely related the different races can be and how far you can travel(One Starsystem on monday, one on tuesday etc. not enough time to learn the language), in Tamriel everyone that is in a given country is very very likely there for several years already(in other cases I have nothing against them speaking another language, like when they just arrived) and will have learned the language by now. I would simply consider it a step back, because it would make the beast races even more .... outsiderish or however you want to call it.

 

So in KOTOR they use the Force or whatever. In Skyrim your character is Dragonborn and thus has the soul of a dragon and can understand use Draconic. If somehow this was magicked so that dragons (thus Dragonborn) can interpret all of the mortal languages because of their being almost on par with the gods, this could work.

[Brittainy]

I wish the games would just drop voice-acting altogether. It's simply too limiting. It's also annoyingly jarring given the fact our own characters speak entirely in text.

 

However, I'm all for gibberish if it means an increase in dialogue and options. :thumbsup: Anything that adds some more diversity on that front is more than welcome. I wouldn't even mind if ALL races spoke nothing but gibberish.

[cooltrickle]

How does that free up voice acting? Unless the gibberish is produced by a computer or something?

 

Honestly I don't mind if everyone speaks the same language. It doesn't take away from the experience.

 

Because gibberish races do not need full voice acting; they use a limited amount of recorded gibberish phrases. A character that uses full voice acting would need five minutes of recorded dialogue for a speech that lasts five minutes. A character using gibberish would need about one minute of gibberish voice acting, for the same speech as the gibberish can be reused (not looped), with different phrasing. Convincing gibberish should not be repeated too much in the same dialogue, so Bethesda need to find a good ratio between gibberish recorded and speech time it's intended to fill. I just saved four minutes of voice-acting time, which can be used to add more dialogue for full voice acting species such as human characters, and more NPC comments, that are reactive to the choices of the player.

 

I'm not concerned with people speaking the same language, either. I see that the amount of dialogue and player choices in the game is limited by the limited space for voice-acting. If we stick with full voice acting for all races species then the only way to increase the dialogue and choice is to use text or use gibberish for some races species. I prefer gibberish with text to silent characters with text, hence this thread. Ideally, Bethesda will just realise it needs to use 2 discs in future and spend more money on voice-acting, but it probably won't. So, if we want future TES games with more dialogue and choice, and I do, then a compromise must be made. Since, it's unlikely that Bethesda would revert to silent characters with text, the only obvious alternative, is that some races lip-sync to gibberish language while their text is displayed on the screen.

 

 

 

So in KOTOR they use the Force or whatever. In Skyrim your character is Dragonborn and thus has the soul of a dragon and can understand use Draconic. If somehow this was magicked so that dragons (thus Dragonborn) can interpret all of the mortal languages because of their being almost on par with the gods, this could work.

 

That would be a good reason to explain why the Dragonborn can understand all languages, but my gibberish suggestion is intended for future TES games, if there are any.

 

 

I wish the games would just drop voice-acting altogether. It's simply too limiting. It's also annoyingly jarring given the fact our own characters speak entirely in text.

 

However, I'm all for gibberish if it means an increase in dialogue and options. :thumbsup: Anything that adds some more diversity on that front is more than welcome. I wouldn't even mind if ALL races spoke nothing but gibberish.

 

I don't mind having my character be silent, but it would be strange if no-one ever said anything. But, I'm not totally against the idea of silent characters.

 

Somebody else mentioned that everyone in Cyrodil should be able to understand each other, because after all, they have lived together for a number of years. But, the people of Tamriel are not just different races, they're different species. People talk about the argonians being a different race, and maybe this is Bethesda's fault, but I don't accept that they are just a different race. Argonians are reptiles, Khajiiti are cats, and Orcs are... orcs. In fact Orcs are Mer, just like the elves. Man, and Mer. Different species, not races. There are significant differences between races, but insurmountable ones between species. There is no reason to think that the voice-box of a reptile, cat or orc is capable of speaking human languages and vice versa, no matter how long they have lived together. How many times have you heard a bird singing? Can you sing like a bird? If not, why not? You've heard them enough times, surely. Because birds and humans are completely different species. Just like Man and Mer. Maybe, Man and Mer can understand each other in basic ways, but not enough to preclude the need for magical items to translate languages. Mages could have some kind of telepathy spell, and enchanted items or potion could grant the same ability. So, I think there are ways of adding gibberish to the game without breaking immersion or spoiling it, in order to increase dialogue length and complexity with no *added* cost. It's easy to add, with a cost; this suggestion adds without a cost.

Edited December 17, 2011 by cooltrickle

[RitchieTheMerc]

Yeah, I agree fully. On another point, why does it cost so much to hire a voice actor? Is there really such a thing as a professional voice actor? I mean, anyone can just say a few lines. It's just....talking. Seriously, you could just go gather up all of the team working on the game and say "Hey guys, come and say a few lines".

It would make the game a lot more immersive to play.

[Seviche]

I'd like the idea of races speaking in different tongues, but it wouldn't be to the player. My real-life experience shows that those who speak a similar tongue that isn't the native tongue of the land they are in tend to speak in the tongue they normally use, but only if the person they are talking to understands it.

 

The Pinoy I worked with used Tagalog to speak to each other when not speaking to an English speaker. Same with the Mexicans. English speakers use it when in the company of other English-speakers while in non-English-speaking countries. A "gibberish" mod would only work well if those who spoke the gibberish language used it amongst themselves, even when the PC was around, but not to the PC.

 

So, if you're an Argonian, running around in Elsweyr, the shopkeeper might be conversing with you in common (or the Imperial tongue, or whatever) while the workers behind him would be chatting away in Khajiit "gibberish." That's how it would work in real life. Also, if it was a Khajiit shop in Skyrim (good luck with that), the same would occur if you were a Nord shopping for your goods. Of course the banter from the workers would probably be them making fun of the "Stupid Giant Hairless Nord," as opposed to normal workplace chat complaining about the pay and hours, but that's pretty realistic as well.

 

It's an interesting idea. :thumbsup:

[Roltak]

So in KOTOR they use the Force or whatever. In Skyrim your character is Dragonborn and thus has the soul of a dragon and can understand use Draconic. If somehow this was magicked so that dragons (thus Dragonborn) can interpret all of the mortal languages because of their being almost on par with the gods, this could work.

 

Okay that leaves the problem of everyone else in Skyrim, they aren't dragonborn and in Riften there is a Argonian female running a Tavern if I remember that correct, her not understanding the commonly spoke language would be like me opening up a pup in France without speaking a single word french. I couldn't even get the deed of the place let alone run it, the people would get sick very very fast with the whole "point at what you want and then use gestures to decide the price".

 

Yeah, I agree fully. On another point, why does it cost so much to hire a voice actor? Is there really such a thing as a professional voice actor? I mean, anyone can just say a few lines. It's just....talking. Seriously, you could just go gather up all of the team working on the game and say "Hey guys, come and say a few lines".

It would make the game a lot more immersive to play.

 

Because yes everyone can say a view line ... they will sound uninspired, lazy, of low quality and don't make you feel like it is that character at all. It is about giving that character personality, getting the little nuances of the voice right, intone it just right so you believe that is a 100 year old wizard, a goddess etc. and you have to get that consistent with emotions and over several lines. It is like acting everyone can go onto a stage, say his lines and move around but it takes time and effort to make it believable.

 

@race/species:

Well I agree and disagree. I agree that most likely a lizard wouldn't be able to form English words with his mouth (I never have seen one try so I can't be 100% sure). But I disagree that the language they are speaking is English. Just like in a movie about ancient Greece the people aren't speaking Greece so we don't have to listen to gibberish, while reading subtitles I doubt that the language they are really using is english,german,french or whatever and I firmly believe that under such circumstances a language would have evolved(next to local dialects and languages), that allowed for some communication with each other by using noises that every race can make and understand.

Also even if we presume that they are speaking english, as far as I remember those races were created (Aedra or Daedra, can't remember) so it would be logical (if they wanted any kind of interaction within the different species) to give them somewhat similar abilities to speak. Otherwise, why not put them on different spheres/worlds anyway?

And last, the evolution or however you call it in Tamriel seems to be fast enough to transform the Ice Elfs into the Falmer which I think is a pretty impressive transformation so if they couldn't understand each other at the start they would most likely sooner or later adapt some ability to do so, in one way or another.

 

So in short I don't think that they races/species is really a problem seeing how long they have interacted with each other, sooner or later they would have found a way, since there are always a way to communicate and over time they would most likely have developed a language that every species can speak with relative ease.

[Linsolv]

Somebody else mentioned that everyone in Cyrodil should be able to understand each other, because after all, they have lived together for a number of years. But, the people of Tamriel are not just different races, they're different species. People talk about the argonians being a different race, and maybe this is Bethesda's fault, but I don't accept that they are just a different race. Argonians are reptiles, Khajiiti are cats, and Orcs are... orcs. In fact Orcs are Mer, just like the elves. Man, and Mer. Different species, not races. There are significant differences between races, but insurmountable ones between species. There is no reason to think that the voice-box of a reptile, cat or orc is capable of speaking human languages and vice versa, no matter how long they have lived together. How many times have you heard a bird singing? Can you sing like a bird? If not, why not? You've heard them enough times, surely. Because birds and humans are completely different species. Just like Man and Mer. Maybe, Man and Mer can understand each other in basic ways, but not enough to preclude the need for magical items to translate languages. Mages could have some kind of telepathy spell, and enchanted items or potion could grant the same ability. So, I think there are ways of adding gibberish to the game without breaking immersion or spoiling it, in order to increase dialogue length and complexity with no *added* cost. It's easy to add, with a cost; this suggestion adds without a cost.

 

I was interested in this idea before, but this but sealed it. We do KNOW that certain (animal) species communicate in ways not especially different from human speech; as I understand it we can even translate some of it. But on the other hand we can't really speak it, not really, and the animals certainly can't speak English.

 

@race/species:

Well I agree and disagree. I agree that most likely a lizard wouldn't be able to form English words with his mouth (I never have seen one try so I can't be 100% sure). But I disagree that the language they are speaking is English. Just like in a movie about ancient Greece the people aren't speaking Greece so we don't have to listen to gibberish, while reading subtitles I doubt that the language they are really using is english,german,french or whatever and I firmly believe that under such circumstances a language would have evolved(next to local dialects and languages), that allowed for some communication with each other by using noises that every race can make and understand.

Also even if we presume that they are speaking english, as far as I remember those races were created (Aedra or Daedra, can't remember) so it would be logical (if they wanted any kind of interaction within the different species) to give them somewhat similar abilities to speak. Otherwise, why not put them on different spheres/worlds anyway?

And last, the evolution or however you call it in Tamriel seems to be fast enough to transform the Ice Elfs into the Falmer which I think is a pretty impressive transformation so if they couldn't understand each other at the start they would most likely sooner or later adapt some ability to do so, in one way or another.

 

So in short I don't think that they races/species is really a problem seeing how long they have interacted with each other, sooner or later they would have found a way, since there are always a way to communicate and over time they would most likely have developed a language that every species can speak with relative ease.

 

No, basically not. What they'd do is develop a universal translator magic. Which is why you get the subtitles at all. Nothing is going to suddenly make lizards capable of human speech. Or cats. Human's can't properly imitate cat or lizard sounds, so if we assume that elves and men are basically similar (which saves time on theorizing exactly what the differences are) then we've still got 3 un-mixable groups here. Except for the whole magic thing.

Edited December 27, 2011 by Linsolv

[Roltak]

No, basically not. What they'd do is develop a universal translator magic. Which is why you get the subtitles at all. Nothing is going to suddenly make lizards capable of human speech. Or cats. Human's can't properly imitate cat or lizard sounds, so if we assume that elves and men are basically similar (which saves time on theorizing exactly what the differences are) then we've still got 3 un-mixable groups here. Except for the whole magic thing.

 

I have no problem with growling, miauing, hissing etc. if I really want to. And since those lizards and cats are intelligent beings, not animals they shouldn't have any problem to "translate" those sounds into their language. Just like I can understand someone who is drunk or speaks the language very poorly.

Also there are parrots, they can speak (although not understand) human languages without problem and they don't even have lips, something Kajiit and Argonian posses so I personally think it is just a matter of training properly and enough intellect.

And another thing, Kajiit aren't cats and Argonians aren't lizard, they are a mixture of those animals (although I somewhere read/heard that Argonians are actually trees or something like that) with man/mer features, meaning they seem to possess enough human traits to speak our language without problem. So once again I think it is just a matter of training and intelligence, both of which all three groups have enough.

 

The problem is we don't have a way to prove or disprove that in reality, but the range of sounds humans can create if they train themself enough is impressive and I doubt that (at least some) animals can't do sounds that we may recognize as humans if they had the intellect to train with us. Especially if we start injecting human DNA into them and making them halfway like us (same height, same general proportions etc. etc). The Kajiit and Argonians are walking on two legs(neither lizards(yes I know some can but not like this) nor cats do that), are intelligent and can grab things with their hands (neither lizards nor cats can do that).

 

If they were intelligent animals that walk on four legs or half savages/rarely have contact with other species okay, but they are not, in my eyes they are closer to humans then to animals.

[Stormcrown]

I took this in a different direction when i read it.

 

Instead of just using this idea to add immersion, it could do that, as well as add TONS of new dialogue to the game. People are always complaining about not having their achievements and such recognized by the guards.

 

A lot of the dialogue issues in the game could be solved with this sort of method.

 

Although it would involve giving the dialogue (english) to the human races, and then several different styles of gibberish to elves, orcs, khajiit, and Argonian. So each race feels as though they are speaking a unique language.

 

This idea could also be used for large overhauls. If people are planning on adding an island or small province to the game, they can use this gibberish system to provide some sort of audio speech, while having all new dialogue.

 

It wouldn't be easy, and debatable if its worth it. but its a good method to add an extremely large amount of dialogue without needing 100+ voice actors.

[phantur]

Eh... hearing a foreign language and then having to read the text on the screen to understand it is off-putting as well as killing my immersion.

 

I either understand them or I don't. When I go to, say, Spain... I'm not going to have text floating in front of my eyes stating what the locals are saying. I either:

 

A) Understand them because I speak their language (which I don't so null and void).

 

B) They are speaking my language (what we have now).

 

C) I'm forced to pull out a dictionary and ask them to repeat themselves twenty times before spending a further 10 minutes trying to piece together broken Spanish to respond.

 

It makes sense for a Khajiit trader to speak the common tongue... Hell, what they're speaking but not be "human" but a tongue that everyone understands and uses in place of their native languages so that we can all understand each other. Maybe Imperial seeing as the Imperials did conquer all these races and was the strongest nation for a time.

 

The Nords speak Norse... a real language that was spoken in our world which is def. not English. Jarl = earl and all that jazz.

 

Anyway... if someone goes to a foreign country to trade, they can't expect the local populace to understand their language. They have to learn the language. Maybe have a few NPCs that don't understand the common tongue (for some reason) and scatter them around to make them look like refugees or sightseers.

 

Anyway. This was way too long-winded. Anyway, the idea of having text appearing on screen translating a language for me just kills the game for me.

 

And choosing between going to my inventory to check up on a huge dictionary and hearing the same line 20 times just so I know what they want me to do... versus having a more limited conversation with someone who speaks the same language as me...

 

I'll take the lesser of two evils.

 

EDIT: Also gibberish wouldn't work too well for immersion. Sooner or later, people will try to decipher the language and become confused when the same word is spoken differently every time and then, for some reason, is said the same way by another race.

Edited January 7, 2012 by phantur