Are Female Armors Denigrating?

[myrmaad]

Dazzerfong again:

I didn't understand it was concept art. I thought MB was characterizing it as a screen shot. I really didn't know where it came from.

 

Now that you say so, though, I can see why MB was confused. I would have imported the body and modeled the armor to the body.

 

I only saw the pic MB posted so just for absolute clarity, I never accused anyone of saying it was real, but I knew it wasn't using real skyrim body models.

 

A crown, a porno mustache, and a thousand-yard stare.

 

That man has done awful, awful things to get where he is.

 

And enjoyed every bit of 'em I'm sure!

[Vagrant0]

I think some people may have forgotten some of the initial complaints voiced about Morrowind, or even some of the armors in Oblivion. What I'm talking about was how wearing these armors quickly masked any gender the character had forcing it to have a default male appearance. In Morrowind, all but a few clothing items would default to a male model, which made for little variety as far as characters go. It was only after an official mod was released with a feminine shape, and an expansion that any of this was addressed. Similarly in Oblivion, many voiced upset that Steel armor and some of the unique armors were designed only for a male, and did not have a feminine equivalent.

I am also reminded of NWN2's solution to nudity, which was a silly looking neck to toe body suit, and similarly armors which were fully covering and mostly bleh.

 

In most cases, it's either one extreme or the other. You can't have armors look uniquely female without replicating some aspect of that femininity in the shape or coverage of the armor. Even as far as an exposed midriff goes, it depends largely on the style of fighting and how much flexibility you need around the midsection. As most fighting styles which do not rely on brute force depend on mobility and fluidity of motion, having nothing, or almost nothing binding your waist would be rather important towards maintaining that mobility. Afterall, in all forms of combat the key is to not get hit. Several styles of male armor throughout the ages have often consisted of little more than a chestplate and armored pants for much the same reason. Cutting someone deep enough across the abdomen to pierce through the muscle and spill the intestines is probably much harder to do in combat than you think. And generally speaking, if you were hit that hard and were that open to an opponent, death would be soon off regardless how you were armored.

[dazzerfong]

I never accused anyone of saying it was real

 

But you accused it of being 'totally fake'. That's the problem right now.

As most fighting styles which do not rely on brute force depend on mobility and fluidity of motion, having nothing, or almost nothing binding your waist would be rather important towards maintaining that mobility.

 

Say that to someone with a zweihander.

 

Vagrant0, either you're not paying much attention to medieval (ie. pre-1500) armors or you're talking about armors after the 1500's. All the armours pre-1500 emphasized on protection more than mobility (at least in Europe). And who said anything about spilling intestines? Thighs and armpits are much easier targets!

[Aurielius]

 

Vagrant0, either you're not paying much attention to medieval (ie. pre-1500) armors or you're talking about armors after the 1500's. All the armours pre-1500 emphasized on protection more than mobility (at least in Europe). And who said anything about spilling intestines? Thighs and armpits are much easier targets!

OK, but if you look at Japanese armor they reflected mobility over encased protection though will freely admit I never saw a female variant.

[Vagrant0]

I never accused anyone of saying it was real

 

But you accused it of being 'totally fake'. That's the problem right now.

As most fighting styles which do not rely on brute force depend on mobility and fluidity of motion, having nothing, or almost nothing binding your waist would be rather important towards maintaining that mobility.

 

Say that to someone with a zweihander.

A 2 handed weapon is a weapon for brute force style of combat, and was usually used more for thrusting than hack and slash, so it didn't matter much what you were wearing if you took a solid hit. Same can be said for most axes and blunt weapons.

 

Vagrant0, either you're not paying much attention to medieval (ie. pre-1500) armors or you're talking about armors after the 1500's. All the armours pre-1500 emphasized on protection more than mobility (at least in Europe). And who said anything about spilling intestines? Thighs and armpits are much easier targets!

Yes, because armpits are so easy to target in combat. About the only point you were right though was with thighs. Thighs, or atleast the front part of the thigh also tended to be one of the most commonly covered areas in almost all armor styles including splint mail, chain, regardless of weapons used simply because the thigh is usually the hardest area to guard with shield, style, or movement.

 

 

What it really boils down to though is aesthetics. In a game, it doesn't matter how much a person is covered since their defense is based solely on some statistic and their ability to avoid hits. So unlike reality, there is more artistic freedom towards pushing a certain desired aesthetic rather than having everything be purely functional and generally without visual appeal. It's the same reason why warriors in 300 were wearing little more than a loincloth and a helmet. The makers of that movie had a certain aesthetic that they wanted to enhance and draw attention to.

 

@Aurielius

That's because women generally didn't fight in warfare or weren't seen as being established enough as warriors that they would need a specially designed suit of armor (armor was afterall usually mass produced for soldiers, or custom fit for nobility). About the closest thing would be chest armor worn by female archers, which was designed to keep the breasts out of the way of the string (a better alternative to removing the breast entirely as suggested was common among Amazons).

[dazzerfong]

Actually, with daggers, it was common to stab for the armpits, Vagrant. Or, when using swords, use the point of the sword or just cleave upwards (more on the former). Here's an excerpt from the book 'German Medieval Armies, 1000-1300' (happened to be both in my library and on Google when researching for armors):

 

... when the Germans raised their swords, they exposed an unprotected weak spot under the armpit. ... and large numbers of Germans were stabbed this way. ...

 

What it really boils down to though is aesthetics. In a game, it doesn't matter how much a person is covered since their defense is based solely on some statistic and their ability to avoid hits. So unlike reality, there is more artistic freedom towards pushing a certain desired aesthetic rather than having everything be purely functional and generally without visual appeal. It's the same reason why warriors in 300 were wearing little more than a loincloth and a helmet. The makers of that movie had a certain aesthetic that they wanted to enhance and draw attention to.

 

Best summary of actual events in my opinion.

Edited December 31, 2011 by dazzerfong

[Deleted2281134User]

I am amused at this thread.

[SilverDNA]

why always the germnas.. cant you pick some other example .. pürhaps be the Battle of Killiecrankie (Cath Raon Ruairidh) where it happened to John Graham, 1st Viscount Dundee (Called by the Scotts "Bonnie Dundee") (by the English "Bluidy Clavers") with a bullet as he was on horse and rallied his troops to follow the English.... good we talked about armours but if you ever saw male chastity belt of the middle ages for armour. you get the notion when you saw one why hygiene wasn't rated very high at that times and I tell you male and female version are quite differently in looks.. well good we never talked about that piece of armour

if you see one ... don't talk about it.. there are horrors that can not be made unseen or un-thought this is especially the case here.

I never saw a modded one so it is good and hopefully i never see one for both genders modded.

Edited January 1, 2012 by SilverDNA

[darksoul123]

Nah, i dont think its offensive. I personally don't like Metallic Bikini Armors, i dont want my female character look skanky, but look at them, they are actually well made, made with good effort, good work. i praise the skills for the one who does them, but i wont download them.

 

yes i do have a problem, when i search the nexus for female armors, it is flooded with those ones. and the ideal armor is........... somewhere in there, but what can i do about it? so i keep my mouth shut and search patiently.

 

and speaking about realism, for those who say women never fought in wars. Tamriel is another world, another age, not Earth's medieval age.

Edited January 2, 2012 by darksoul123

[naomis8329]

Some of the armors in the vanilla games that I've played recently have had me wondering how on earth women are supposed to move in them to begin with as the plates (leather or metal) seem to reach knee level and beyond in some cases. Not only would crouching be nigh on impossible (getting back up would involve some form or hoist), sneaking and stealth would not be possible either and so full frontal assaults would be necessary at all times. Therefore when I look at armors (for both sexes) I look for practicality and looks.

 

When my hero is out and about doing his or her good deeds I want them protected and safe, when at home or in a city then they can look like cool dudes in sexy clothes and weapons that look good but aren't necessarily for use lol.

 

My companions are usually likewise dressed and protected and if we are launched into an unexpected battle then hopefully my magical abilities will be enough to assist with added protection.

 

At the end of the day for me its about immersion, living a totally different life, being someone completely different (maybe the person I wish I was, be it male or female), and that should not matter in the slightest.

 

If I like a mod I will download it, use it and (if I remember) endorse it. I have young children so I have to be careful what I download and use, although I have downloaded some totally risque stuff but have not been able to use it because of the risk of the children seeing it. It is a matter of choice and I loved Slofs Goth Shop for men and Apachii's Goddess Store for women depending upon my character at the time and what companions I had with me. The same goes for Dragon Age and hopefully for Skyrim.

 

Let's all remember one thing what we use, wear or create can't denigrate women or men as it is not real, any of it. It is not based on fact and I'm sure Red Sonja and Conan would love half the creations created if not more.