Female plate armor with or without breast cups.

[Seviche]

Yes it does and quit retorting to these excuses because your (might be unknowingly) defending the obvious sexism of the developers with these lazy ridiculous arguments and logical fallacies. The human body in any world should be no different than our world and even in fantasy worlds there needs to be laws.

Obvious sexism? They're making a game who's audience is mostly men. Men likes teh boobies. I know I do. Women know we like them, that's why they choose to accent them with their methods of dress and presentation. So, when men create women with boobtastic armor, they're just representing the modern world in a fantasy setting. The armor is totally realistic if you don't take the logical needs of the battlefield into account.... and you're not giving a crap about people yelling "SEXISM!" every time they see a woman having her sex revealed by her outfit. Even if the reveal takes the form of giant, goofy-looking metal cups. Which probably didn't exist, because no matter how often people sniff about how ignorant the savages of the the past were (unless they're perpetuating the "Noble Savage" myth, in which case the ancient people were way smarter than anyone alive today could ever possibly be), they were good at killing each other and knew how to build the tools to do it.... which didn't involve boob cups. So, long story short, if you want to complain about sexism, start with the women. We're just following their lead.

 

Yes, it's snark. Mostly. :biggrin:

 

Honestly, this is why I like the Blades armor the best for female characters. It looks the most logical to me. It's a gentle compromise between "Yeah, there's a woman under all that plate" and "I can see it stopping a few sword blows." I'm also an advocate of the "Realism Uber Alles" school of gaming, which always put me at odds with any fantasy game that insists on making me watch a guy with six of my arrows in his head keep attempting to hit me with a 40 pound bar of metal that is vaguely sword-shaped. That is, if he's not trying to fry me with a totally realistic fireball, with those six arrows in his head. So I'm always juggling my desire for a realistic environment and realistic equipment with the need for physic-negating pyrotechnics and impossible beasties. It's just that they (designers) tend to focus on making the beasties and fireballs as believable as possible and skimp on caring about the equipment you're using to stay alive. *shrug*

 

Either way, all I really know is that I don't want Khorak mad at me. Seriously. That had to leave a mark. :pirate:

[Gyiul]

I think you people need to read this article:

 

http://madartlab.com/2011/12/14/fantasy-armor-and-lady-bits/

 

Especially this section:

 

That there, that is a boob plate. I made that one. The woman in the photo asked for it to be like that. She fights in it. I worry constantly that she’s going to fall hard and it will crack her sternum, even with the padding. Note also that it seems almost perfectly designed to guide sword points and arrows into her heart. They still have to penetrate the armor but, honestly, that’s a design flaw. However, it looks good and makes her feel sexy and badass at the same time. That’s important too.

 

The bold is why I call boob plate impractical in battle and sexist because of the health problems and it should be no different even in fantasy worlds where the human body structure should be no different. People need to separate realism in terms of armor and the mystical to make the setting more believable.

[ginnyfizz]

 

Ultimately, the argument is against ludicrous boobs hammered into female armour, and it's at the point where you can't even properly justify a female hardass having much boob at all, let alone requiring such modification. Hell, I gave names for actual examples of modern female fighters (who still can't take on their male counterparts anyway) and you're....talking about your horse riding and 'several thousand meters' of rowing. You might have gotten away with that if no-one knew what that actually meant, but I do, and you are not even close to fit enough to serve as an example.

 

Still missing the point - I have also previously said that it is also possible to fit large boobs into male style armor, and have done, at no point have I ever said that it is necessary or desirable to have boob plates hammered into the female armor in practice. However, if people want them in a fantasy game, so be it, but I have actually been agreeing to some extent with the argument that the boob plates are a liability.

 

What I was disagreeing with is the ridiculous assertion that large breasts denote a lack of stamina or athletic ability, because they don't. It's just the way the hormones work.

 

You are just, as usual, being bad mannered and also taking things out of context. I did not say that either horse riding or rowing were equivalent to melee combat, I was stating them as examples of stamina requiring activities that can be accomplished by a well endowed lady with a good sports bra. I did not actually state that I am tremendously fit now because my state of health largely prevents that, most of my athletic activities I make quite clear were in the past. The horse riding excepted, I no longer compete at that but still hunt. Incidentally whilst children may ride they certainly do not ride adult level courses/pop huge hedges out hunting (not on shortass ponies around 12 hands.)

 

Incidentally on the subject of children and therefore physically smaller, what you might call weaker, people in battle, what we would call children, early teenagers, were frequently called into the service of their feudal lord, so if a weedy Kevin the teenager could fight in a battle, there was no reason a buxom wench couldn't EXCEPT that social convention prevented it in many circumstances. It wasn't the case that armies were solely made up of crack highly trained troops, a lot of them were whatever miserable wretches that could be forced into it. Although certainly in England archery practice was compulsory for a time. So most of the MEN in those armies were not exactly melee experts.

 

I am under no obligation to provide times and such as you somewhat ludicrously demand, as that would just be pandering to your desire to make personal attacks on me and taking the subject off topic.

[Seviche]

I think you people need to read this article:

 

http://madartlab.com/2011/12/14/fantasy-armor-and-lady-bits/

 

Especially this section:

 

That there, that is a boob plate. I made that one. The woman in the photo asked for it to be like that. She fights in it. I worry constantly that she’s going to fall hard and it will crack her sternum, even with the padding. Note also that it seems almost perfectly designed to guide sword points and arrows into her heart. They still have to penetrate the armor but, honestly, that’s a design flaw. However, it looks good and makes her feel sexy and badass at the same time. That’s important too.

 

The bold is why I call boob plate impractical in battle and sexist because of the health problems and it should be no different even in fantasy worlds where the human body structure should be no different. People need to separate realism in terms of armor and the mystical to make the setting more believable.

It appears you didn't read your own article; the girl wanted the boobs on her plate. Not sexist. Thus, your argument might actually be an argument that boob-plate isn't sexist at all. If we're using real-world to influence our decision making as to what the armor should look like, then it should stand to reason that women warriors in a fantasy world would wear boob-plate because women in our time do it as well. Why should we only use the past as an indicator of how armor would or should look?

 

Or don't women get a choice as to how their armor should look? Now that's Sexist.

[Wolbryne]

@Ginny

 

"Ever tried pulling an oar for several thousand metres? Don't tell me that doesn't take stamina because I know damned well from experience that it does. As does riding a horse for several hours a day (if you think that riding a horse is just sitting on your arse then that's obviously something else you've never done.)"

I rowed roughly 500000 meters (500 kilometers) one summer on a river called "Dalaälven. Rowed from norway, across sweden all the way to the baltic sea. so yup, believe I have pulled an oar for several thousand meters... still the weight of my body didn't matter at all since I wasn't up running, walking, dodging my friends oars nor was I swinging my oar through the air trying to hit anyone with it over and over and over...

 

"You have also evidently missed the bits in some of my other posts where I have mentioned taking part in historical re-enactments. Stamina has nothing to do with the size of your tits or lack thereof. And as for your assertion about archers, how do you explain archaeoligical findings that suggest medieval archers were of strong build? There is a difference between a modern bow and a medieval style longbow and I've drawn both. Your friend is not exactly a typical archer."

re-enactments are NOT full un-scripted contact with real heavy, sharp, swords. And they are nowhere near as brutal in any aspects.

Stamina has INDEED something to do with titsize. bigger boobs equals more body fat and more body fat equals more weight. And that matters. Or maybe all pro athletes should wear 15-30 lbs bags strapped to their chests since it don't matter? and besides the added weight to the chest would cause your lower back to tire more quickly. or are you gonna tell me that big-chested women aren't prone to back-ache?

And yes the archers back then were much stronger than todays archers because their bows were heavier to draw then todays light weight bows. but being able to pull a medieval long bow once or twice is hardly the same as shooting it over and over during battle so your comment is really irrelevant. Actually your whole post was irrelevant. sry

 

@Nekra

 

"Is reading and comprehension so much down the toilet these days? "

I, and I'm sure others too, am reading the thread fast and posting on what I think need replied to. I'm not sitting here proof reading everyone's posts. YOU should formulate your comment so that what you say won't be misconstrued.

But yeah a bigger arc of the chest piece to accommodate bigger "assets" would work and still keep the breast plate functional. It's the breast cups that would render the plate worthless. But I think I said this somewhere before too. might have been in the comments for the "less sexual womens armor" -mod

 

@Fatal

 

"I've also know several female medieval combat reenactors who wore fitted breast cups becauses they WANTED to. It's acctually more confortable than wearing a flat cuirass.

 

*eyeroll* "

I think it's much more comfortable wearing a hello kitty jump suit than pads when playing hockey. I also think it's more comfortable wearing soft fleece gloves than the heavy flame retardant leather welding gloves in the shop...

 

*trollroll*

 

@wolf

 

"If women were dominant in history then armour would be based around them and their figure."

armor isn't figure based. it's human based. Male plate armor wasn't "male" shaped. It was simply shaped to cover a HUMAN body and prevent the human in it from dying. Plate armor actually looked kind of feminine imo what with the wide breast, narrow waist and wide hips.

 

@Ginny

"Incidentally on the subject of children and therefore physically smaller, what you might call weaker, people in battle, what we would call children, early teenagers, were frequently called into the service of their feudal lord, so if a weedy Kevin the teenager could fight in a battle, there was no reason a buxom wench couldn't EXCEPT that social convention prevented it in many circumstances. It wasn't the case that armies were solely made up of crack highly trained troops, a lot of them were whatever miserable wretches that could be forced into it. Although certainly in England archery practice was compulsory for a time. So most of the MEN in those armies were not exactly melee experts."

 

a teenage boy age 15-18 is usually stronger than a grown woman. Hell our soccer team back when I was a kid beat the womens adult team 10-15 to 0 every time we met from when we were age 14 and up. We were stronger, faster, could dribble better, shoot harder, pass longer and more accurate etc. That's just an example. but still GENERALLY speaking, a 15yo boy is stronger than an adult woman. now don't hate me over that comment. hate genetics, dna and hormones in-staid.

 

@Seviche

"If we're using real-world to influence our decision making as to what the armor should look like, then it should stand to reason that women warriors in a fantasy world would wear boob-plate because women in our time do it as well. Why should we only use the past as an indicator of how armor would or should look? "

we can't use todays women plate armor as any kind of reference since it isn't created to fight in. It's simply something to look stylish in adult play fighting. it's more a "fetish" than actual battle. What we CAN base it on is plate armor that was designed for actual battle (medieval armor).

(I know you were just really talking about the "sexism debate, but I'm tired and can't tell things apart atm so you got copy-pasted in here too lol)

Edited December 27, 2011 by Wolbryne

[myrmaad]

Wow I don't know whether to be confused, offended, or just annoyed.

 

Anyone who thinks breasts stop women from being athletic or physically fit is just an ignorant jackass. Yeah, I said it.

[Zeruel241]

@myrmaad - With respect, I feel quite certain the concept of boobs = no stamina is not being pushed here. I believe Wolbryne is attempting to present that a female with sufficient physical training to engage in continuous all out physical combat in heavy plate armor and other gear for significantly long periods will be of such a low body fat ratio that chest size will likely not factor into the shape of a practical breastplate in any significant manner. This does not necessarily mean nonexistent breast mass, just that body fat simply tends to work that way. We cannot generally compare our experiences to historical example because the differences with modern combat, and the fact reenactments and such simply do not compare to the intensity of combat in the style of old western martial arts, tend to leave us with a bit of normalcy bias. I am quite certain any two people in this discussion (including myself) could throw on full plate armor plus the prerequisite padding and take swings at each other for a good long while. That does not mean that an individual fully physically trained for combat in full plate could not come over, easily defeat both aforementioned individuals in short order and continue on with his or her deadly business.

 

My thanks to all those who have posted in this thread. I myself am a stickler for these sorts of subjects, and I am happy to see others share my aggravation concerning such things. The linked article by Ryan Consell was a particular delight, as I enjoy reading the thoughts of modern day armorers and weapon designers concerning their work and how the public eye tends to see it. Slightly related, I am happy to see that 747823 seems to have returned to modding, and hopefully the comment section for his mod (which was apparently the impetus for this thread) will be cleaned up and reopened minus the trolls.

[redhorizon09]

It's a fantasy game set in a fantasy world, there is no right or wrong.

 

Couldn't have said it any better.

 

Either way you look at it the " debate " over this was stupid to begin with. Its fantasy not reality. you want reality turn the computer off and step outside, you want fantasy play Skyrim.

 

Spot on. I also find it ridiculous to even start heated debates about "realism" in fantasy themed worlds. Why would people even compare real armor to a fantasy game armor? It's a game. It's not real. Let go of reality when you're playing a fantasy game. For example, I served in the military as an infantry rifleman. I've fired various small arms weapons and learned that it's nothing like in the movies. Grenades don't explode like what you see in movies. Do I let this bother me from enjoying an action movie though? No, because I can let go of reality and take the movie for what it is: entertainment.

[Zeruel241]

@redhorizon09 - To play a "devil's advocate" of sorts, let me argue said annoyance as due not to a lack of consistency with reality, but to a lack of internal consistency. A fantasy world is all well and good, but generally any decent fantasy environment establishes its own rules of logic. The examples you provided concerning small arms and grenades don't mesh with reality, certainly. However, said films and the like generally do not have similar weapons function dramatically different without a rational enough cause. They may not be realistic, but they are consistent with the internal logic of the world the story is set in.

 

The thing which annoys some concerning the at times dramatic difference in armor styling between male and female characters is how the sheer difference in armor effectively breaks the fantasy world's internal consistency, thereby hindering suspension of disbelief. It is difficult to believe males wear armor apparently operating on one set of logic, then see females wearing metal bikinis and believe both types provide the same kind of protection without some additional explanation to explain the inconsistency. If being females granted them magical barriers or something for protection, then this would be well and good. In most cases though, such explanation is never given; we are to believe the metal bikini provides the same protection as a full suit of plate.

 

Skyrim, thankfully, does not possess such glaring schizophrenia. However, it still seems like male plate armor operates on logic somewhat close to reality, while the female plate armor operates on a much different set of logic. It makes it more difficult to suspend disbelief in what I see, which makes me thankful mods which alter such things (one way or the other) exist. They allow us to alter our entertainment to suit our preferences and go back to being entertained, which is what really counts.

[Sindrie]

I personally fined women more attractive in heavy breast plate.... not laced revealing boob armor but i guess i'm the .000001% now.....

 

to be fair to games I think it's also a strategy to be able to tell the gender of the person other wise it would be really hard...

 

also it seems every thing does it now for example:

Mass effect

dragon age

fallout

fable

WOW -side note I hate this game!!!

warhammer fantesy

warhammer 40k -40k is realy bad at it.... why do sisters of battle have boob armor?.... its huge power armor originally made for a man, and huge one at that, (space marines) there should be feet of extra chest room in there.

 

-Blood for the Blood God!!!!

 

p.s. there needs to be a chaos emoticon like on the beth forums :(

Edited January 18, 2012 by Sindrie